Author Topic: plywood+fiberglass blades  (Read 5575 times)

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kajs

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plywood+fiberglass blades
« on: May 09, 2009, 08:59:22 PM »
r=2.5m for the first project is quite ambitious.. but what if it is the last too? :)


i wanted to make really mathematical blades - with good twist and shape.

hugh piggot formulas were used, sg604 series airfoil profiles. i left quite large thrust part of the blade, so i hope tsr 8 will be ok even in low wind speeds.


i decided to make the blades somewhat similar like they make airplane wings - with inner plywood(6mm) airfoil profiles, covered with plywood (3mm, 3layered was the thinnest i got - next time i will be searching for one layer plywood) and then with two layers of fiberglass.


because it is quite a challenge to align the twisted profiles correctly, reverse form of blade's back was made onto witch the blade was assembled layer by layer: first fiberglass, then plywood (glued), then profiles, plywood, fiberglass.


i have problems with the leading edge fiberglass, because it is supposed to bend around there, but the fiberglass i have is too thick to do that nicely - it forms bubbles.


i apologize for image quality





the blades are not finished yet.

i'll keep posted.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 08:59:22 PM by (unknown) »

Warrior

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2009, 08:52:22 PM »
Wow!!! Excellent work! it looks like you've put a lot of dedication to it.

You also seem like a very patient man!


keep up the good work!

« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 08:52:22 PM by Warrior »
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Dave B

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2009, 10:49:59 PM »
Tremendous work, it's great to see such attention to detail. Please keep us posted with your progress with more photos as you go. I am particularly interested in your root connection and performance figures. This is a refreshing change from the 2X relatively flat blade carvings and you will have a great "motor" to work with to match your alternator and load. Again, this is exciting to see something new, thanks for posting.  Dave B.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 10:49:59 PM by Dave B »
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cdog

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 07:37:12 AM »
I don't even know what to say, amazing I guess!

Anyone have a ballpark idea of how much more efficient this would be compared to the standard made by most here?

Again, amazing work!!!

Cdog.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:37:12 AM by cdog »

Janne

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2009, 07:55:42 AM »
Great work, that technique should make a very durable and a light blade.


Those blades will most propably well outperform the normal 3 station 3degrees, 6 degrees, and as much as possible in the root-blade.. but only if the loading of the rotor follows the power curve better.


With direct coupling to batteries i suspect the difference will be marginal, because the loading is crooked anyway. The roughly shaped blade might even work better with direct battery charging, as while some parts of the blade might be stalled, there are still other portions of the blade providing lift. The mathematically perfect blade will stall all the way at once.


Best thing about having much twist in the root is the good startup torgue. It is helpful, if the generator is an iron cored machine, and even more so if a speed up gearbox is used.. In the case of axial flux alternator the added benefit from the better start up torque is marginal, as there is no added drag on startup on them.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:55:42 AM by Janne »
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clflyguy

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 08:28:08 AM »
Kajs,

  So, how long have you been building sailplanes? :-) Gorgeous work so far and I too am interested in the connection method you will use. I see that you are using staggered stub spars (threaded rod) in tension.


  This will work up to a point, but were I you, for the first 6 or 7 stations I would install shear webbing of the same plywood as my ribs right next to the rods. If that sounds like too much cutting and measuring you could accomplish much the same effect by pouring a high density foam between the first 6 or 7 ribs and then block sanding it down to rib profile before laminating on the underside plywood. Strong like bull.


  Please don't construe  my comment as negative in any way- I have spent many hours designing & thinking about building  blades in just this manner. If I didn't have so many projects underway already I would be out in the shop cutting rib sets now.


  Keep up the excellent work and send photos- we like photos....


clflyguy

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 08:28:08 AM by clflyguy »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 01:06:53 PM »
i was also thinking about pouring foam in those first stations. i do not see that some of the profiles could move out of its place, therefore decided that that one perpendicular "bone" to profile "ribs" is good enough. it goes a bit further than rods. two would be better, of course.


the rods are basically to even out the connection tension, not for rigidness of the blade. the blade is strong and elastic made this way.

i will have one last profile made of metal plate at the root. to that i will weld/screw connection things. i shall see. i'll keep posted.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 01:06:53 PM by kajs »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 01:15:37 PM »
thanx for comment


i really do not want any battery bank. i love heat. it's cold here. so you will see me asking questions about methods of dumping everything in heat.


the gen will be air core, no gearbox.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 01:15:37 PM by kajs »

jimovonz

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 02:44:34 PM »
Impressive work.

next time i will be searching for one layer plywood

Would one layer still be 'ply' wood?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 02:44:34 PM by jimovonz »

brokengun

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2009, 09:52:52 PM »
I have always wanted to see someone try to make blades like an airplane wing. I just haven't gotten the chance to try it... or the skill.. haha. good stuff!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 09:52:52 PM by brokengun »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 11:58:52 PM »
if i myself would glue two layers of it.. probably it would:) and that would make better, more precise blades.


also i wanted to add, if you try making blades like this:

i have profiles every 10cm. that is not enough at least in areas where the shape significantly changes - do not be lazy on this. also a thinner than 6mm plywood would go there better , because the angle between profile and main plywood is not right.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 11:58:52 PM by kajs »

SparWeb

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 01:07:04 PM »
Kajs,

Impressive - that is a lot of work.  


I am concerned that your blades will be too flexible.  I see no large spar.  Do you realize that the thrust load on a 5 meter rotor can be several hundred pounds?  When one blade is complete, I suggest mounting the root to a bench, and placing 100kg or 200 pounds (spread out on a board) at the tip to prove that the deformation of the tip will not cause a tower strike.  


I cannot see enough of your female mold, but do you have a sheet of aluminum between the form blocks and the fiberglass/plywood surface?  

« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 01:07:04 PM by SparWeb »
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wdyasq

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 08:16:06 PM »
Steven,


On a structure like he is building the skin will be the load bearing material. If it is a glass-fiber matrix and properly done, there will be little load on the wood.


I have considered building blades using 1.5mm mahogany veneers on a 'long' diagonal and a solid or 'strip planked' leading edge. The process would use vacuum clamping and I am sure build a strong, light blade. The blades would be built in a minimum of three and possibly four parts and be bonded together after the pieces were cured and sanded. One could lay some stranded glass fiber between the veneer layers if strength or flex was a problem.


I would worry about the root connection of the blade and transfer of energy from blade skin to root as well as the problems of unequal flex in the wood/glass and on this design, the steel rods.


Quite possibly the only way to test ones guesses as to strength of the thing would be destructive testing of a complete unit.


Of course each new design would require three or more 'molds' ... It will be quicker and cheaper to carve blades until one gets the design perfected.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 08:16:06 PM by wdyasq »
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kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 10:27:20 PM »
uhh! you scared me. 100kg at the TIP? are you sure? i will do some tests later and report.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:27:20 PM by kajs »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2009, 10:35:06 PM »
"I would worry about the root connection of the blade and transfer of energy from blade skin to root"


yes, that is what i am also worrying about. i will put additional fiberglass at the base, wrap around the root end, and make sure that all fits together right.


till then.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:35:06 PM by kajs »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2009, 03:12:38 AM »
"uhh! you scared me. 100kg at the TIP? are you sure?"

ok, i see. even up to ~150kg evened out over the blade. good info. thanks!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 03:12:38 AM by kajs »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2009, 03:27:54 AM »
sorry, messing up with comments

no, i do not get it. is wind slowed down equal to the thrust on the blade? if the blade is stalled, ok. but where does the torque get in?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 03:27:54 AM by kajs »

Dave B

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2009, 11:38:36 AM »
 Again, I'd like to compliment you on your work. Actually doing it is very different from talking about it and it is obvious that many have dreamed of building blades exactly as you are doing.


 You will work out any issues as you go and unless you hear from those who have done what you are doing I would take ideas and sugestions of how you could do better with a grain of salt.


 Here is an interesting experiment http://www.royalfabrication.com/test.htm Dave Moller and I did a while back on one of his 6' laminated blades. It's tough to build and then break something on purpose but the knowledge learned from it is tremendous.


  Excellent work and keep us posted, those blades will be great performers.  Dave B.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 11:38:36 AM by Dave B »
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SparWeb

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 12:59:48 PM »
Kajs,


I'm not cruel, but I did want to get your attention.  Those pictures from Royal Fabrication are interesting.  It's a good example of a solid wood blade breaking, but your blade isn't solid.  It's more complex, so its strength is also a more complex question.


There's no way to do a proper analysis through the internet, and one isn't called for anyway.  By eye alone, it looks to me like you've missed a crucial structural element: the spar, or some equivalent beam, that carries the structural load from the skins of the blade, to the root, to the attachment.  How will this blade be attached to the hub?  In your second picture I now see some spacer blocks between ribs, but they are far from being a continuous member that take the bending from tip to root.


Ron isn't quite correct about the exterior shell taking the bending load, but he follows up that comment with his concern about the lack of a spar, like mine, so he asks the same thing, just in a different way.


Lift is the force a wing/blade/airfoil makes, perpendicular to the oncoming wind.


In you mind's eye, look at a 3-bladed rotor face on.  The wind is at your back, and it turns (clockwise or counter-clockwise).  Each blade is sweeping through the air as it rotates, and the wind is pushing air through the swept disk.  For the sake of argument, the angle of attack of the blade is 15 degrees from the plane of the disk.  The lift force made by the blade point, then, about 15 degrees away from the axis of the rotor.  This makes for a lift force on that blade that is partly pushing the blade back toward the tower, partly making the blade turn.


Whenever I try to work out the thrust load on wind turbine blades, I get a force that increases with increasing wind speed and power captured.  Figuring out exactly how much is like throwing darts in a dark room!  I can only guess, and use a bit of math, but I usually come out with about 400 pounds for an 8-foot (2.44m) diameter rotor.


If this is the only blade made this way, then finish it up, find a way to mount it (you would have to do that anyway to attach it to the rotor hub) and put weight on the tip, gradually, until you see wrinkling of the lower surfaces between the ribs.  Do not put more load on after you see the wrinkling: there won't my much more strength after that effect appears.


Okay, so maybe I do sound cruel.  


If you can put 100 kilograms on the tip, and you see no wrinkling, then you are darned lucky and you can forget about my tirade!  The joints of the ribs to the skin and the closed plywood cell may provide enough shear resistance to keep the blade from collapsing.


Please report back if you do decide to carry out that test!


By the way, this is the perfect time to explain what my alias means:


A "spar web" is the flat sheet between the top and bottom members of an I beam.  The web can be thin if the beam is not subject to crushing, or loads out of the plane of the beam.  The web is normally loaded with shear and buckling, and it can be very complex to analyze.  Unfortunately, it is often ignored, at the designer's peril!


So: the skins of your blade can provide tension and compression strength, but the ribs lack the SparWeb to carry the shear.  In another time and place that could be funny.


Please don't be discouraged.  I can make all kinds of suggestions, but it's ultimately always in your hands to satisfy yourself with your project.


Good luck.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 12:59:48 PM by SparWeb »
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wdyasq

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 02:16:08 PM »
Not to be splitting hairs... but to split thoughts.....


My REAL point is when one builds a structure with Fiberglass and a substrate, the 'glass' will carry the load and substrate starts acting like that 'spar web' thingy (note the technological term). In a structure with two materials of VASTLY different tensile properties, the material with the higher properties will carry a larger percentage of the load (until the wood peels from the glass and the whole thing goes.)


One of the things that terrifies me is the 'homebuilt' fiberglass blade. It takes a lot of analysis to figure the stresses on a turbine blade and a lot more to figure how they will transfer over the skin and through the layers of fiber and resin matrix. This must then be transmitted to an alternator.


Some of the most interesting structures to analyze and study are the wooden wings of 'The Golden Era' of aircraft. This was the time when aircraft went from biplane to cantilever construction. It was also the time of changing from wood to metal and structural skeletons to skin stressed structures. Lots of new things were tried. Some had more success than others. The height of wooden construction might be the De Havilland Mosquito or the Hughes-Kaiser HK-1/H-4. All of these had to spars if only just to tie other 'stuff' to the wing.


Let us not get in a fight over what is right or wrong ... let us realize it is complex and be grateful folks DO test and publish results. While some may look at the top of the blade Dave Moller loaded to failure, they should also look at the compression failure AND realize it isn't loaded as a turbine blade would be?


Good luck on your project kajs and if you are in the US, I'll send you some veneers so you may try something new and different.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 02:16:08 PM by wdyasq »
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hiker

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2009, 10:13:55 PM »
brings back my model airplane days..[ringmaster]

what about doubling up on the ribs at the root of the blades..

had to do that with my model planes...

looks great.........
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 10:13:55 PM by hiker »
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kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2009, 12:01:54 AM »
you are right "about doubling up on the ribs at the root". i'll leave it for the next time.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 12:01:54 AM by kajs »

kajs

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Re: plywood+fiberglass blades
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2009, 12:04:44 AM »
thank you all very much for the comments! i'll get to work and report.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 12:04:44 AM by kajs »