Author Topic: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED  (Read 20258 times)

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Speo

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12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« on: December 18, 2005, 10:17:55 PM »
Hello,


We just finished building a cottage in a remote area. Despite the fact that the power company is running the high voltage power cables almost above our roof, they will charge us an arm an a leg to hook us to the power system (the poles from nearest transformer -1 mile away, the wires, and the connection fee).


I am planning to use a small car battery bank (4*50 A - I guess cranking amps?) as I need power only for few CFL lights (1-2 lights at a time, 8-12W each, 1hr daily).


What is the best choice, to use directly 12V from the battery, or 120V through an inverter, or both (i already wired 2 parallel systems)? What are the pros/cons for these two systems? I heard about some cable loses for 12V, but I'm not sure about that. For 120V there are some power loses in the inverter that has to run the whole night.


In terms of light, would the LED lighting be good enough, or it is worse that CFLs? I saw on ebay some 12V or 120V bulbs with up to 40 LEDs inside. If I put a 12W CFL in the middle of the room, it would be enough light for me. Can I achieve the same thing with those LED bulbs?


Last year I built a small wind generator (check my home page) that kept a car battery charged for 1 year (no charge controller, no furling). As consumers, I used just 2 lights: 12V 8W CFLs few hrs per week. The gennie was damaged few months ago during 80 MPH winds. The magnets from the Ametek stator jumped on the rotor and stuck it. Probably it got hot and the glue melted...? I am planning to build a bigger-better one, add some solar panels and use a charge controller.


Thanks,


Speo

« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 10:17:55 PM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

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the search
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 08:43:36 PM »
« Last Edit: December 16, 2005, 08:43:36 PM by wdyasq »
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willib

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 09:14:34 PM »
LEDs give off a more directed light .

if all you need is general lighting i would go with  the small 6W fluorescent tubes ( they are cheep and easy to use )and are easily powered off of 12V..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2005, 09:14:34 PM by willib »
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MountainMan

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2005, 09:22:21 AM »
Some generalities (mostly obvious) about 120 vs 12V...


120 is more convenient in that you can plug other things in when needed (laptop, phone charger, electric blanket, etc.) without having extra adaptors and what not.


It would make the cottage seem less rustic, having "regular" power.  Up to you whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.



  1. V is more efficient - no losses converting the 12V to 120V.
  2. V is cheaper, no inverter to buy
  3. V is theoretically safer, hard to electrocute yourself with 12V
  4. V is a little bit simpler, thus a little less likely to fail

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 09:22:21 AM by MountainMan »

scottsAI

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2005, 11:08:52 AM »
12v is cheaper, no inverter to buy. Well maybe not.


True if you only need a total of two CF, more than two the inverter is cheaper.


I was designing the lighting in a large hunting lodge.

Original plan was to use 13 CF scattered about the place. Never expected more than 6 on at once.

I was using 12v CF until I checked the total cost.


12v CF cost $14 each or more.

Local store has 120v CF for $2 or so. I do not buy the $1. junk.


$28 buys a 350w inverter, mod sine, 120v CF work fine, using one right now.


Like MountainMan said, 12v is simpler.

The inverter has to run to be ready... when not there want to turn it off. Inverter may only draw 100ma no load, but 24 * 0.1 = 2.4ah. This load requires a 6w solar panel to supply just this stand by load.


The plan was to put one 12v CF in the entry way, this is always ready. Enter building, turn on the inverter.

The lodge had a large pole barn for equipment. Need to plant the crop for the deer. Needed 6 more CF for lighting, 12volts was just too far away. 100+ feet not a problem for 120v.


May I suggest you use golf cart batteries? The 12v car batteries are NOT deep cycle batteries, they will not last long in a deep cycle environment. Cost is less for two golf cart batteries (6v each @ $60ea) will have 225ah at 12v, beating the 4 12v 50ahr car batteries. Unless the car batteries are free?

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 11:08:52 AM by scottsAI »

ghurd

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2005, 11:13:08 AM »
LEDs are not the best choice for 120V.  Past about 24 LEDs, and the CFL is surely a better choice.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 11:13:08 AM by ghurd »
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crashk6

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2005, 11:52:16 AM »
My first suggestion is, do try to get deepcycle batteries insted of car batteries. You will be much happier with them.


Now as for voltage, if I understood properly you ran a set of lines for both voltages?

If so consider this, make all your lighting and other such hardwired things 12 volt, that way you may have the convenience of lights without needing the inverter to run them... you will find this particularly nice should your inverter ever fail!


Then as far as convenience receptacles use the 120 volt inverter output to feed those, this gives the advantage of using standard appliances and the inverter may be shut down entirely when no accessories are in use. You would of course want a few 12 volt convenience outlets for things that require power 24/7, like cordless phones or answering machines... LCD TV/Monitor perhaps, battery chargers for cordless tools etc.. your cell phone's 12 volt charger or your laptop charger. But if someone comes to your house they will be greeted with a familiar 120 volt receptacle that is compatible with their things.


The most recent system I am installing I'm doing in exactly this way, except I also have 24 volt available at the receptacle as well for heavier loads like 24 volt refrigeration.


I was able to use one type of duplex receptacle for both of my DC voltages... so it's almost fool proof... unless the non-fool wires it wrong... but that can happen with anything at any voltage, just be attentive to the work at hand and those issues are avoidable.


On my 120 volt side I have a 1KW inverter that feeds all the "standard" receptacles.

But surprisingly even with construction going on it remains off most of the time.


As for switching of DC lights just use a good quality snap switch (do not use quiet switches, they don't open fast enough), they will switch DC lighting loads up to 5 amperes safely which at 12 volts is a fair amount of light if using compact fluorescent. Although you may want to add an electrolytic capacitor across the switch's terminals to control arching if your load is close to that 5 amp range.


For most of your general lighting use 12 volt CF's, a 13 - 15 watt spring/twist style will give as much light as a 60 watt incandescent and one or two in a room provides good evening light levels. For task lighting.. like a desk lamp or under counter lights, LED's work well.. but if you need BRIGHT light use a fluorescent.


I particularly like the LED halogen replacement/imitation bulbs for spotlighting artwork and paintings.. but you may want a UV filtering lens to protect your artistic investment.


Hope the new mill comes out well!

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« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 11:52:16 AM by crashk6 »

Speo

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2005, 04:24:17 PM »
Hi Guys,


Thanks a lot for all your responses. They are a little bit different than what I was expecting.


Using a deep cycle battery bank is not an option and the car batteries are almost free. The cottage was built in Western Europe, there are no used deep cycle batteries available(only expensive new ones for forklifts) and shipping cost for a battery bank from other country is very high.


I already have an inverter and I was thinking to use a remote controlled relay to turn it on/off, and also use the same remote control to turn on/off some of the lights (the outside ones).


Thanks,


Speo

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 04:24:17 PM by Speo »

Speo

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2005, 04:28:10 PM »
Yes, I have a set of wires for each voltage, so, I can run both voltages simultaneously.

I will feed one set of wires with 120V from the inverter, and the other one directly from the battery.

What do you think about feeding 12V to the inverter from the other set of wires (a 12V receptacle), and not directly from the battery?


Thanks,


Speo  

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 04:28:10 PM by Speo »

Gary D

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2005, 04:39:22 PM »
You have to be VERY carfull not to run more current thru the 12 volt wiring than it is rated for!!!! Or a house (wiring)fire could result.  

    Have fun, but play safe!! Gary D.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 04:39:22 PM by Gary D »

Speo

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 04:52:38 PM »
What if put near the battery some fuses? I think that would be safe!?


How should I choose the fuses?


Thanks,


Speo

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 04:52:38 PM by Speo »

nothing to lose

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 07:13:07 PM »
Remote controls use power, not just the batteries in the hand remote but the other side uses power waiting to see if you press a button or not. Sometimes they may be very usefull, other times could use more power they they are worth.


I kinda wonder if that is what's eating away a couple car bateries here. Stupid car has the remote door locks and a button to pop open the trunk from way far away. Yep very handy if I need to grab the gun out of the trunk fast I geuss, but is that why after a week or two of not starting the car I end up with a dead battery??


It's your choice of 12Vdc or 120Vac for lighting. It might be nice to have the main light most needed as a 12Vdc so if nothing else is needed then the inverter could be turned off. Otherwise if the inverter will be on almost all the time anyway might as well just use 120vac Cfl for cost savings. As said by another, having a 12Vdc one is handy if the inverter fries, or even if batteries get really low then you could shut everything down but the one light.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 07:13:07 PM by nothing to lose »

crashk6

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 01:00:36 PM »
Fuses are chosen in accordance with the wire size they need to protect from over current.If for instance you have a 400 watt inverter you would want to use at the very minimum 8 AWG wire directly from the battery bank and install an in-line fuse with the same rating as the wire which would be 40 amps.

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« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 01:00:36 PM by crashk6 »

ADMIN

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2005, 03:12:35 PM »
Hi Speo


I was going to comment, but everyone covere what I was going to say already! SO I'll summarize...


First of all, I like your idea. You get visible (no pun intended) benefit and a fun experiment from your small turbine by just running lights off it, instead of spending thousands of Euros to go off grid!


I agree with Glen -- for general room lighting, CFs will be more efficient the LEDs. LEDs are best for smaller lighting tasks, expecially where light must be focused in one direction. Desk lamps, flashlights, reading lights, vehicle lighting....LEDs are excellent here.


I agree with everyone on 120vac CFs vs 12VDC CFs, too. 12v is fine if you only need a couple, but expensive per each when you run more. Especially since you already have an inverter! I've also seen problems with 12v CFs and voltage drop -- if the 12v wires are not large enough (I use #10 romex in my house) they might not run, or will burn out early. Small wire can give more loss than inverter efficiency would, making 12v less efficient than 120vac, not more. With my house wired for both 12v and 120v, I find them about equal in light va power output, with the added advantage that when running off the inverter, my lights don't vary in brightness with the battery bank voltage.


If you are going to use car batteries, i hope you have a steady source of them, they don't last long. If it becomes a pain, I'm sure you can find golf cart batteries, though they may be called something else. But I know they play golf over there, and have electric powered carts!


Have fun

ADMIN

« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 03:12:35 PM by ADMIN »

erichtopp

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2005, 07:04:23 PM »
I've heard through the grape vine that LED's are not taking off in the market place because they (manufacturers) can't seem to get the color of the LED's right. Anotherwards making a warm white or a cool white color doesn't seem to work with LED's. The white LED's seem to be blueish in color. Is this grape vine info correct????????????? Rgds, Erich
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 07:04:23 PM by erichtopp »

Dreadstar

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2005, 12:48:03 AM »
Run the inverter off the shortest largest gauge wire you can. It will lower the losses and lower the chance of burning out your 12volt wire runs to your outlets. 12 volt inverters go up in amps extremely fast. it is a 1 to 10 ratio dc to ac after all.

 A 1000 watt inverter will use over 83 amps to do that 1k watt ac. And if you are using just a car battery it won't last long at all. get some deep cycle batteries.

 Gruber sells sealed 110 ah for $89.22 each. Or get some trojan T-105 220ah 6volt they work well if you have a ventilated space to put them.


 Running both 12volt and 120volt ac lines to outlets is a good idea i did the same here. I have 2 sharp 208 watt solar panels and use 12volt dc lighting almost exclusively in the house aswell as 12 volt fans for cooling. The inverter is for emergencies and extra power days i try to use it on the ac stuff here so i can keep my bill down. :P eventually plan on going off grid in town.


 LED lighting does work but because of the directness of the light i recommend cfl all the way for indoor indirect lighting. I have both and for some outside lighting i use the leds in a  20 led array for 2 watts i get enough light to see the steps and find the right key and the door lock to put it in.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 12:48:03 AM by Dreadstar »

Dreadstar

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2005, 12:51:28 AM »
Pick up 1 or 2 of the VW solar panels off ebay. and use them in your car they will offset the alarm and remote sense aswell as any other phatoms in your car. I don't drive my car that much most of the time i ride my motorcycle. I did that and it helped alot havn't had a dead battery since i did so. Or just run a line from your big solar array or wind array use anderson powerpole connectors on the ends and keep your car topped off that way.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 12:51:28 AM by Dreadstar »

JeroenH

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2005, 01:23:39 AM »
Something else entirely:


The opening post mentioned high-voltage wires running overhead. Would it be feasable to put up some kind of big coil which picks op the field around the wire, transform it into 12V and charge your batteries from that? Or, if the field is steady enough, transform it into 110V or 240V and run your lights directly?


I have seen pictures of people standing under high-voltage wires at night with a fluorescent tube which glowed quite brightly, so there is much energy leaking away.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 01:23:39 AM by JeroenH »

ghurd

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2005, 07:02:22 AM »
They can, and do, get the color right. Sometimes.

The colors everyone wants are sorted from the rest, and sold at a premium price.


More blueish LEDs tend to be brighter, and everyone wants the highest MCD rating.


The lower grade LEDs end up in surplus houses or cheaper products.


When the technology gets a little more stable, the color and brightness can be better controlled, the price will come down and the product will be more viable.


It is still not going to be the best choice for area lighting with 120/240VAC.

G-

« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 07:02:22 AM by ghurd »
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crashk6

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2005, 10:36:21 AM »
Yes it is possible...


The power company does broadcast a great deal of energy into the surrounding atmosphere, however if you use it without giving them money, most will regard it as theft even though you have made no physical connection to the system ... so I don't recommend it.


I don't advocate theft, but if someone (power co) knows they are being wastefull (leaking power) and does nothing to stop (shield the system) and expects that no one will occasionally use some of that waste product... then that's just silly.


Same thing I told the nice officer about dumpster diving... although that's in a class of its own.


But then again it's the same dilemma we now have with things like WIFI, did the broadcaster intend to leave the network opened to everyone or was it accidental? Now with the electric co you can guess at their sentiments... but with both, my philosophy is the same as with someones hospitality... enjoy and be thankfull but don't take undue advantage of your host!


Anyway, unless you understand the total principal of creating a stable magnetic coupling to a high voltage line you best just leave it alone... It's very possible to make a mistake and get get electrocuted by high voltage induction surge on the order of a few hundred to a few thousand volts.


Besides, isn't the point to use power from a clean source anyway and not from a coal fired plant?

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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 10:36:21 AM by crashk6 »

tecker

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2005, 02:53:27 PM »
I'm just tring a 15k neon transformer out in my shop and It seems to work fine .(haven't tried a burned out tube yet I'm shure that the 1.8 k will give me a candidate soon) Just pulse 12v into the transformer and use the oldest floresent tube you can find .Works well . Im messing with the frequency now I'll post.Transformer on ebay for > 30 bucks and get a cheap 555kit from Electronic Goldmine. I'll try a micro wave hv section too.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 02:53:27 PM by tecker »

coldspot

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2005, 06:39:27 PM »
I would-

IF wiring not done yet, on the 12 lines use large stranded wire.

just an opinion.

Learned from spending summers in a cabin!

« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 06:39:27 PM by coldspot »
$0.02

hardworkinghippy

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2005, 03:45:11 AM »
Hi,


I've just fitted a lot of LEDs all over the house and I'm pleased with the colours and "life" they put into a room.


I've put a collage together of all the lights we've done so far.


http://photobucket.com/albums/v374/hardworkinghippy/The%20House%20at%20Sourrou/?action=view&curr
ent=collage.jpg


You have to experiment to get it right. They are expensive, but I hope they'll last for ages.


HWH

« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 03:45:11 AM by hardworkinghippy »

chux0r

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2005, 04:09:52 PM »
It doesn't work.  I saw it on Myth Busters. :)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 04:09:52 PM by chux0r »

ghurd

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2005, 04:48:28 PM »
It DOES work. I saw it happen in my car.  

Can't reproduce it, but it worked every time until I moved the extension cord on the light.

G-
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 04:48:28 PM by ghurd »
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dinges

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2005, 04:59:03 PM »
380kV high-voltage lines isn't something I'd like to experiment with. Besides, is this really RE ;-) I used to experiment with high voltage (colour tv cascades; first 30V; overdriven to 50kV :-) Then 2 in series. Three in series... 150kV  Thank god I didn't have access to the internet back then (about '93) or I would have built an xray-machine (severely limiting my chance of offspring :-) ) HV shows quite different behaviour from your garden-variety 12V...


I used to build xtal-receivers, that worked on the energy they picked up from the radiowaves; so no external battery was needed.


Also, I know of some HAMs who did an experiment once with a few pieces of long wires, at about 1km distance from a big MW-broadcasting station (Ijsselstein/The Netherlands). They managed to let a few lights burn on the energy of picked-up radiowaves.


Personally, I'd go for picking-up the 1000W/m^2 of radiowaves from the sun though...


Peter,

The Netherlands.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 04:59:03 PM by dinges »
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Luminosity

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2006, 04:49:00 AM »
Can anyone tell me what the lowest wattage is available in a  120 volt CF bulb with a standard medium screw in base?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 04:49:00 AM by Luminosity »

ghurd

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2006, 09:11:55 AM »
I have seen a 3W.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 09:11:55 AM by ghurd »
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Jdonnell

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2006, 09:46:51 PM »
Thanks for all the good info ..


White Light LED?

Google - Quantum Vanderbilt LED White Light


http://exploration.vanderbilt.edu/news/news_quantumdot_led.htm


Quantum dots that produce white light could be the light bulb's successor


By David F. Salisbury

Published: October 20, 2005


Take an LED that produces intense, blue light. Coat it with a thin layer of special microscopic beads called quantum dots. And you have what could become the successor to the venerable light bulb.....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9777070/

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 09:46:51 PM by Jdonnell »

Don Cackleberrycreations

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2006, 09:48:47 AM »
My personal plan is to be running all my lights off a 10ft turbine by this winter.

augmented with some solar cells for low wind periods.

If calculations are correct I can do this using a 350 watt inverter

Have already converted all household lights to 13 watt CFs and have begun  rewiring lights to a seperate set of breakers.

One must keep in mind my home is a 28x60 manufactured home (the price was right and yes Ive already removed the wheels )  forutnately it came with 6 inch walls  thermopane windows and lots of insultaion. While I may never be completely free of grid power plans are to wean differentt sections off the grid as funds and ablity make it possible.

    Nothing as noble as using clean energy I simply want to be less relient on outside sources. Including  power and food production with 40 acres this should be quite possible . Working on yearly plans  strives are being made
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 09:48:47 AM by Don Cackleberrycreations »

NT

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Re: 12V versus 120V house wiring, CFL versus LED
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2006, 09:59:02 PM »
Re 12v vs 120, having both is more Flexible, more reliable, and cheaper than all 120/240.


12w cfl equiv in LEDs cant be done. It would require about 50w in LEDs, since LEDs have way lower efficacy. That would cost a lot, and the bulb temp would get way too high for the LEDs to survive.


Dont put a cap across switch contacts, it will kill the switch prematurely. It prevents visible arc on open, but does at least as much damage when the sw is closed. Use RC not C. RC will much improve switch life and reliability. For 12v 5A load try 5 ohms for the R.


Its important to fuse correctly at 12v, as the fuses protect against higher risk of fire than on 240/120. But thats really the only safety issue with 12v wiring, unlike 240.


To make car batts last longer, have them discharge only 50% per cycle. Theyre not deep discharge, so if you can get them cheaply, just dont deep discharge them.


NT

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 09:59:02 PM by NT »