Author Topic: need info for lighting  (Read 3145 times)

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asheets

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need info for lighting
« on: July 24, 2006, 05:16:15 PM »
OK, I've read the FAQ and applicable posts (and done some Google research), but I'm not getting a consistant answer on my question.


What I have now are a set of porch lights.  I replaced the standard socket incandescents with 12W, 120VAC CFLs and they work fine.  However, I'd prefer to run them off of RE instead (I've been playing around with this for awhile now).  I want to keep the lamps and sockets the way they are right now.  Another goal would be to be able to switch back to grid power for the porch lights when the RE gear is undergoing maintenance.


Here's the equipment I have scrounged together:



  1. 2 car batteries (reconditioned)
  2. a method of charging said batteries (I have some Ametek gennys and several solar panels that keep the batteries in good shape.  If things get really bad, I have a grid-powered charger handy.).
  3. a 300W inverter.


With the batteries, the inverter, and the two 12W 120VAC CFLs, the porch lights will stay lit for about 4 hours before the inverter will shut things down due to undervoltage.  I'd like the lights lit up for at least 8 hours.


So, which kind of lamps will light up my driveway the best and run the longest between battery charges?



  • 120VAC socketed CFLs?
  • 12VDC socketed CFLs and power supply for grid use?
  • 120VAC socketed quartz halogen?
  • 12VDC socketed quartz halogen and power supply for grid use?
  • 120VAC socketd LED?
  • 12VDC socketed LED and power supply for grid use?


And what would be a good online location to purchase the lamps at a good price?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 05:16:15 PM by (unknown) »

whatsnext

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2006, 11:59:16 AM »
CFL's put out the most light per watt so stick with them unless you want marker lights in which case LEDs work fine. You might look into getting 3 watt bulbs instead of your 12 watters. Otherwise bite the bullet and create a seperate porch lighting system using your current wiring as a backup. If you do this you'll avoid the double inverter losses you have now (inverter and lamp PS). Look up Amanda's flyback inverter and power it off 12 or 24 volts directly. JMO but you seem to have a lot of stuff just to run a porch light or two or four hours so it might simply be that your batteries don't have the capacity you think they do.

John
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 11:59:16 AM by whatsnext »

ghurd

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2006, 12:59:08 PM »
I agree. Something sounds not quite right (only 4 hours). If the inverter is NOT a name brand, check what it draws for that load.

I would try 12VDC 12W CFLs. 2 X 8 hours = 16AH. Even a so-so car battery should be able to handle that.

G-

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 12:59:08 PM by ghurd »
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richhagen

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 01:32:05 PM »
I see two main options, since your system is at 12VDC volts, and your mains at 120VAC, as you've noted it makes sense to use one or the other for the lights.  


120VAC:  


The bulbs are much cheaper and readily available most everywhere (at least where I am at)


Switching between the mains and the inverter could be as simple as a double pull, double throw relay, (switch both the neutral and the 'hot' line as the grounding schemes are likely different unless you want to see some of Ghurd's magic smoke)  although the building codes may not allow for that in your area.  It probably wouldn't be that hard to rig a simple circuit to throw the relay when the battery voltage is above a minimum level.  I've used this scheme before, the lights flicker when it switches back and forth from batteries to grid.  

An alternative would be to build a circuit to switch on and off the inverter depending on the battery voltage.


12VDC:


Although the bulbs are more expensive, you don't have losses from the inverter.


Again, you can probably rig a simple relay circuit to turn on the grid-tied charger when the batteries reach a certain discharge voltage.  


I have a pile of solid state relays that I purchased surplus, so I would probably use one of those on the 'hot' leg of the charger supply and then use a common op-amp comparitor circuit with a resistance voltage divider tied to the battery voltage on one leg of the op amp and a reference voltage set by a zener and a resistor on the other leg to switch on the relay.  You will also have to add a feedback voltage from the output of the op amp to the voltage divider or reference to provide some hysterisis.  For the 110AC version, I would use the comparator circuit to turn on a transistor that would power the coil of a traditional DPDT relay rated for more amps than needed, and protected by a fuse.  In either case, the lights would simply operate from the switch as normal (dc switch if 12VDC), with the user oblivious as to how it was powered without checking.  


Anyway, just kicking around some ideas, Rich

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 01:32:05 PM by richhagen »
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Bruce S

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 03:34:06 PM »
Asheets;

   I would be looking at that 300watt inverter, some of the older ones are not as effiecent has the much newer ones.


After having the last storm come through St.Louis and take out the entire city, I pulled to old 300w and ran it with a CFL for at least 6hours. My setup was just the normal heavy duty battery out of my 81 F100 connected directly to the inverter with a 110CFL in the socket.


Another route to go , depending on the amount of light you want to shine out, is to exchange those for the newr 7 watt ones.

 They, in the dark are great, and will almost double your light time. They do run hotter than teh 25watters for some reason.

Hope this helps;


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 03:34:06 PM by Bruce S »
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asheets

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 05:01:23 PM »
The inverter is one from Target that I got a few months ago.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 05:01:23 PM by asheets »

asheets

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 05:04:44 PM »
I will admit that the batteries I'm using now are fairly beat up.  I pulled them out of a garbage pile, desulfated them, and brought the specific gravity back in line. They started my old junker car properly, so I figured it was good.  Perhaps I should look into getting a new battery and trying my test again.


 

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 05:04:44 PM by asheets »

commanda

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 07:41:32 PM »
I'd do it the other way around. 12 volt cfls. Transformer from mains to 12 volt dc to run lamps. Relay on output of said power supply to switch lamps from battery to power supply. Turn on power supply, relay pulls in, lamps run off power supply. Grid fails, relay drops out, lamps run off batteries. No inverter losses.


Amanda

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 07:41:32 PM by commanda »

scottsAI

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 09:45:28 PM »
Hello Asheets,


Numbers are like this;

two 12w lamps = 24w used.


My 300w inverter uses 0.3amps with no load.

So, 24w/12v = 2 amps. Let's say 80% efficiency so current is 2.5amps

Total current is 2.8 amps times 4 hours = 11.2aH taken out of the two car batteries.

I would say the batteries are junk! Should be able to get at least 30aH from each battery. Size matters here... Smaller the smaller aH the battery can store.


The worst inverter I have ever used was 50% efficiency, so even based on that your still only getting 20aH from two batteries.

Not even close to what you should be getting form two batteries.


Do you have some reliable load, to check the aH of the batteries?

Time for some new batteries?

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 09:45:28 PM by scottsAI »

ruddycrazy

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 04:01:03 AM »
Well I installed 8 12 volt cfl's in my shed a couple of years ago and Jaycar reckons they would outlast the 240 volt ones. HA. 1 has gone south and another 4 of them are getting the black in one of the tubes so they'll die soon. As far as effiecency goes each cfl draws around 0.6 amps each and the brightness is no where near the 240 volt versions. Off memory each cfl cost $22 each and the petty brass holders for them are total crap. I only wish Oatley had brought out there 240 volt inverter kit before I lashed out 100's of bux for the current crap I have. Anyway I'm going to buy a few of the Oatley kits and go the 240 volt route and have brighter light at a 1/10 of the price and use the existing wiring and the same nife batterybank to power them.


 I've been there done that and from my experience 12 volt cfl's aren't what they claim or I just got totally ripped off by jaycar peddling their chinese crap at inflated prices.


Anyway checkout the Oatley's cfl inverter kit as 240 cfl's are dirt cheap compared to the 12 volt ones.


Just my 2.2 cents


Cheers Bryan

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 04:01:03 AM by ruddycrazy »

ghurd

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2006, 09:26:18 AM »
I believe there are only 2 types of 12V CFL.

A Solsum and NOT a Solsum.

G-
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 09:26:18 AM by ghurd »
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NT

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Re: need info for lighting
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2006, 09:22:49 PM »
What does your invertor draw offload? That should answer where the problem is.


Going 12v eliminates not just the losses of an extra invertor, but its unreliability too. If you use the external foil electrode driving method and separate ballast from tube, you can use dead junked mains CFLs on the 12v ballast.


240v system is of course simpler to set up, but more money, less efficient and less reliable.


Bringing lamp power way down may be enough to solve the 4hr runtime problem, if its bad batteries.


Have you tried hitting the 12v batts with mains? this can be done to help break up sulphation which reduces capacity, BUT obviously do it wrong and it could get quite nasty. Note for darwin's most ardent supporters: just plugging them into the mains is REAL STUPID and may seriously injure you.


NT

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 09:22:49 PM by NT »