Author Topic: coil questions  (Read 2612 times)

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komatsu200

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coil questions
« on: February 02, 2007, 01:19:06 AM »
I have searched for days on info about winding coils and cannot find any answers to my questions. It seems that everyone uses a heavier guage wire to wind their coils.Why? Could the same thing be acheived by using a thinner wire with more turns? If so what do you sacrifice by doing so?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 01:19:06 AM by (unknown) »

RUFUS

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 07:40:43 PM »
Dude  

      start with a Hugh Piggott Primer, read it twice, i'm serious,

Then get a good understanding of how three phase works, when

your real comfortable with all that knowlage, go to some member pages like Flux, Zubbly, the Dans, Woofie, are just a few, heck read everybodys, look over all the files and read

thier diaries, comments, rants, then ask that question again, i think you'll start grinning.

  i am by no means any kind of an authority in any of these subjects, i have 1-1/2

turbines under my belt and more to come, the knowlege gained from simply reading the information on this site is priceless,

                  just keep reading  it'all here

                                         Rufus
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 07:40:43 PM by RUFUS »

stephent

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 09:05:00 PM »
Just a simple question of watts. Say an 8 ft blade in medium wind will do 200 watts. Winding a lot of turns of small wire on coils in series will make 200 volts at one amp--200 watts. (example only stuff here--not guidelines)

Or winding a lot less wire turns with larger sized wire to pass more amps will do say

24volts at 8.3 amps--more/less=200 watts also.

Or fewer turns of heavier wire or several in parallel will produce 12volts charging at 16+ amps=200 watts.

Taking advantage of 200 volts at 1 amp to charge 12/24/48 vdc batts isn't effecient, so a winding of medium/large sized wire with fewer turns more closely matches the intended charging usage.

Actually it is easy--just attach genny 200 volt output thru rectifiers and then to batts, but expect a lot of genny heating from I^2 x R losses in genny due to large number of turns and small wire size.

Coil heating is a big bug-a-boo and needs to be addressed with ---yep---number of turns and wire size to pass amps at voltage needed and a few other design parameters like cutin speed,,blade size, total magnetic material cubic inch and a few others too.

Probably the only thing you won't find by reading a lot on this site to help you figure out all this coil size/ wire size/ turns/ blade size is the only thing everyone would like to know---what is the PERFECT profile for a wind genny blade?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 09:05:00 PM by stephent »

luckeydog

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 11:39:55 PM »
check this page out. lots of good info.

http://otherpower.com/stator.html  
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:39:55 PM by luckeydog »

asheets

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 01:48:42 PM »
quick and dirty answer:  with thicker wire, you get more amperage and lesser resistance, provided you get the same number/size of coils into the same volume of flux
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 01:48:42 PM by asheets »

finnsawyer

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 09:23:00 AM »
Sometimes they will use a winding of two strands of a thinner wire, usually because the thicker wire gets too hard to use.  If you cut the length of a wire in half you cut its resistance in half.  The two strands are then wound on the same coil at the same time and connected in parallel which again cuts the resistance in half, so you end up with one quarter the resistance that you would have got using one strand of the thinner wire from the same amount of wire.  This could easily equal the resistance of a single strand of the thicker wire.  When you go from a single strand to a double strand of the same size wire you also cut the number of turns in half, which cuts the voltage in half.  Of course, using a thicker wire also will reduce the number of turns and therefore the voltage.


Why is this important?  Well, for a particular size wind turbine you need a cut-in voltage of 12 volts at a certain RPM.  The current that flows into the battery as the RPM increases then depends on the resistance of the alternator windings.  A lower resistance means more current and more power out.  So, both cut-in voltage and alternator resistance are important to match the alternator to the wind turbine.  This has been done and refined by people over time and the results are available here or elsewhere.  That's why it's important not to deviate too much from established designs unless you have a mind to experiment.


The coil resistances are also important in that the current flowing through the coils causes heating in the coils.  One wants to keep that within safe bounds.  The lower the resistance the less the heating.  Unfortunately too low a resistance could drive the wind turbine into stall, so, it becomes a balancing act.  

« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 09:23:00 AM by finnsawyer »

Miztiki

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Stall?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 12:49:38 AM »
"Unfortunately too low a resistance could drive the wind turbine into stall..."


[hijack] What does "stall" mean?


I tried to find the answer searching the board here and using google but they seem to assume that the person reading knows what it means, and I don't. Thanks. [/hijack]

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 12:49:38 AM by Miztiki »

Flux

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 03:05:30 AM »
This has come up several times recently, if Gordon from Wales is watching this should help him as well.


It has been covered several times but as always it is difficult to find.


I don't want to go too deeply into this, but some idea of aerofoil operation is needed.


Wind approaching an aerofoil section at an angle, the wind will split into 2 parts and some of the air will flow over the top surface and some will flow underneath. The wind flowing over the top is speeded up in relation to the other part and there is a force known as lift and in the case of a plane it is the bit that lifts it off the ground. This lift also is the bit that produces power in a windmill blade but it is a vector component that produces torque.


The lift increases with the difference in angle between the blade and the wind ( angle of attack) up to about 15 degrees, but there comes a time when the air flow separates from top surface and turns into a turbulent wake. This is the stall point and lift drops drastically with disastrous consequences for planes.


It really needs diagrams to explain all this, but I don't have time for that now.


For a wind turbine to work satisfactorily the angle of attack needs to be less than about 12 degrees and it is common practice to aim for about 5 deg where the ratio of lift to drag is highest.


If you can imagine the wind approaching a stationary blade the angle of attack will be not much under 90 deg and the thing will be highly stalled ( that is why thins are slow to start)..  Now when it is spinning with its tip speed several times that of the wind, the relative wind to the blade doesn't look anything like before. It seems to the blade as though the wind is coming in at a small angle to the blade.


The angle of attack that we want is the difference between the physical angle of the blade( pitch)and the relative wind angle.


To keep this angle of attack constant, the blade rotational speed must increase directly with wind speed so that the tip speed ratio stays constant.


For every blade there is an optimum tip speed ratio depending on its geometry , angle and width and normal blades here are intended to work with tip speed ratios between about 5 and 7.


If we think of a blade designed for a tsr of 7, it will work best at 7. at 6 or 8 it will work quite well, but things are falling off the peak when you get down to about tsr6 and below that you are approaching the region where the angle of attack is up towards the 15 deg. Any further slowing will bring the thing into stall and below tsr5 the thing will stall and power will drop very rapidly.


If you can follow that then we are in a better position to follow what is happening

with different loads on a windmill blade.


If the alternator doesn't load the blades enough they fly fast, you have a high tsr and you don't extract good power. If you load correctly they fly at design tsr with optimum power. If you overload they fly slowly and you approach stall and the power falls rapidly.


We have seen that ideally the rotational speed should follow wind sped. This would imply a load that tracked the energy in the wind and blade load should rise with wind speed cubed.


The air gap alternator has an output power that is almost exactly linear, so that its input power is a bit nearer speed squared if you include the losses.


The result is that if you get the light load right it doesn't load enough in high winds and the prop runs away .


If you get the high wind load right then you have too much load in low winds and the blades stall. If bad enough it will never pull out of the stall and get to the correct high wind load.


We should have a load such that the prop speed tracks wind speed, but the best compromise with simple loading seems to be to accept a 2;1 speed increase from a 3:1 windspeed increase. If we cut in at8 mph then we would want the alternator speed to double by 24 mph.


We balance things by cutting in at a high tsr say tsr8 for our chosen prop with tsr7.

It's tsr will fall rapidly as the wind picks up and we are stalling to some extent in the 12 mph region. Tsr continues to fall right up to rated power and if you have it right you will be close to stall at tsr5 at your furling point.


How do you achieve this?


Choose your cut in speed for about tsr8, that gives you the cut in speed, relative to prop diameter.


Now the way in which the alternator loads with speed depends on its resistance, so if it has a high resistance it will not provide enough load at higher speed. If the resistance is too low then it will stall the blades in high winds.


Normally the design is chosen  so that the winding resistance is what you need. if resistance is too high you need more or bigger magnets that work with less turns and let you use thicker wire.


If you are drastically too powerful then you can save by using less magnet. If you are only a little too powerful it will be better to add a bit of extra resistance in the line. This does the same thing but keeps heat from the stator.


Most people err on the slow side at cut in, but trying to get too much from low winds will bring you into stall early and reduce power in higher winds, so if you hit stall then the first step should be to raise cut in speed as far as you can without spoiling the low end too much. This is done by increasing the air gap.


When you have got he best cut in and you are still staling then think about adding resistance.


If you err on the side with too little magnet and too high a resistance then there is not a lot you can do except perhaps to opt for a smaller prop.


I realise this that got very long and perhaps over complicated in places, but even if you haven't followed everything you should get most of the implications of stall.


If you can follow most of it then it may be worth looking at Hugh Piggot's site at the blade theory he has, with the diagrams that make it simpler to follow.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 03:05:30 AM by Flux »

finnsawyer

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 08:23:22 AM »
As usual, Flux gave an excellent answer.  I think at this point I would recommend you get a book on aerodynamics.  I would recommend one by a Dan Smith by that title.  He gives an excellent treatment that doesn't require higher mathematics.  As you can see, this wind power area gets more and more complicated as you dig into it.  Good Luck!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:23:22 AM by finnsawyer »

racer

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 11:40:40 AM »
Flux

?

I'm designing my first windmill and trying to figure blade design from Alton's Wind Calculator. So building a TSR 7 blade I should choose TSR 8 to get cut in RPM and TSR 5 to get Furling RPM and try to design the generator to withstand the amps at furling with some safety margin added in. I am figuring on using 200 circular mills per amp.


The one problem I have with Alton's Wind Calculator is that it doesn't add in hub radius if the blades are stepped out from the center shaft a distance on the mounting plate. I am planning a 8 ft mill but the calculator comes out to be 8.6 ft then adding the hub in I come out closer to 9.07 ft. Do I just use the Blade carving numbers for the 8 ft and the cut in and furling rpm's and power of the 9 ft and be happy with it?

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:40:40 AM by racer »

Flux

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 02:31:07 PM »
I don't know enough about that blade calculator to be able to help you. It seems to give a lot of data, some of which I think is based on simpler theory than applies in real life.


I am sure it will give you basic dimensions for a blade with tsr 7 if you feed it the right information but I don't understand it.


I tend to use Hugh's spreadsheet as a guide.

http://www.scoraigwind.com/


Just choose the dimensions for tsr7, assume it will run at tsr 8 at cut in or wind your alternator for 180 rpm at cut in for 8ft diameter.


If you use 12 poles with 2 x 1 x 1/2" magnets and a stator about 1/2" thick you will need about 30 turns for 12v. That would come out at about #11 or 2 in hand #14


I have no idea what that is in circular mils, it is bad enough having to translate wire size into AWG without converting to another strange American unit.

Flux

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 02:31:07 PM by Flux »

gordon01639

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 03:36:03 PM »
Thanks Flux,

            I found something almost the same in another posting by you, but I think you simplified it even more this time.


Gordon.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 03:36:03 PM by gordon01639 »

gordon01639

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 03:49:59 PM »
Here is the other one Flux did.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/1/10/33440/5055


Gordon.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 03:49:59 PM by gordon01639 »

Miztiki

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 06:13:03 PM »
Please bear with me, I'm really trying hard to learn and understand these things.


You lost me early on. The best I can get out of your answer is this:


"When the angle and force of the wind causes the blades to not spin as well as they should."


I know that's oversimplified but is it correct? Stall doesn't mean the blades stop spinning, it just means that they don't spin as well as they should?

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 06:13:03 PM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 06:14:57 PM »
I forgot to ask if stalling is a problem only with hawt's, or if it's a problem with vawt's too. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 06:14:57 PM by Miztiki »

komatsu200

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 07:34:03 PM »
ok. I have done a lot of reading on this site and i have learned a lot. mostly through your comments. thanks . But i still have a few more questions. When using two strands of wire in a single coil do you just wire the two inside legs together and the two outside legs together? And I know that the power of the magnets have a lot to do with the amount of power the coils produce. but how much?  I ask this because I have ordered some neo magnets but have been experimentng with some ceramic magnets i had laying around while waiting for my others and i can barely get anything out of them. By the way I am building an alternator for hydro. so I should A steady rpm.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:34:03 PM by komatsu200 »

RP

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 11:00:31 PM »
Stalling is only a problem with "lift" type wind turbines.  Some VAWTs are "drag" type (like the savonius) and don't really stall, they just slow down under load until they stop.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:00:31 PM by RP »

Flux

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2007, 03:05:16 AM »
No, the analogy with the car tends to cause confusion here.


Stall is associated with lift on the aerofoil or the lack of it when the angle of attack is too high. The blades will not stop turning but the power available will reduce their speed to a slow crawl. The speed will be such as to balance the available load and in some cases that may be little more than bearing friction if things are stalled badly enough.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:05:16 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: coil questions
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 03:12:43 AM »
Yes you do connect the 2 strands together, it just behaves as a thicker wire.


If you tell us what you are trying to do then we can help. With hydro much depends on the speed of your turbine, if it is high then you will manage with a small alternator. if the speed is very low then you may need something with a lot of magnet and copper for the same power.


As I explained elsewhere the difference in voltage between ceramic and neo is not that spectacular, but the winding resistance will be much higher for ceramic and that will need a much bigger alternator for the same power.


If you are short of volts you may have other things wrong. If you can get volts but too little power then a change to neo may solve the problem.

Flux

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:12:43 AM by Flux »

finnsawyer

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2007, 08:58:04 AM »
I suggested the book on Aerodynamics because the physics is the same for an air plane propeller an airplane wing and, a wind turbine blade.  The propeller, wing, and blade all have a profile that is called an air foil.  An air foil will react to the apparent wind that it sees by developing lift.  In the case of a propeller the apparent wind comes about because of the engine spinning the propeller.  The lift developed on the propeller in turn pulls the air plane wing through the air.  This creates an apparent wind across the wing equal to the plane's speed through the air, lifting the plane.  In the case of the wind turbine blade the spinning of the blade causes the apparent wind.  At the tip the blade has a speed equal to the TSR time the incident wind speed.  This movement will cause an apparent wind effect similar to that of the propeller.  This is not the apparent wind at the tip, however, as we must also take into account the incident wind, which is at right angles to this effect.  We must add the two as vectors to get the true apparent wind.  The apparent wind will change as one moves toward the root of the blade.  It will start out large with a small angle relative to the plane of rotation and will become smaller and will rotate toward the direction of the incident wind (increasing the angle relative to the plane of rotation).


Once we have established the direction of the apparent wind, the angle of attack is defined as the angle between the plane of the blade and the apparent wind.  The air foil will typically provide lift from an angle of attack of -4 to 12 degrees.  Twelve degrees is when stall occurs.  It is possible for only part of a blade to be in stall.  In fact, the blade designs you see here will generally have the region toward the root in stall, because they don't have enough twist.  For a blade with a TSR of seven we can see that at 1/7 the length of the blade the apparent wind will be made up of two components equal in magnitude to the incident wind, but at right angles.  So, the apparent wind is at an angle of 45 degrees to the plane of rotation.  Stall will occur with an angle of attack of 12 degrees, which puts the angle between the blade and the plane of rotation at 33 degrees.  You don't get that kind of twist when carving a blade out of a 1.5 by 7.5 or 9.5, which means an angle less than 33 degrees between the blade and plane of rotation.  So, stall will actually occur at a larger radius.  Some will argue that it doesn't matter, since the power lost near the root is small.  Unfortunately, when an air foil goes into stall, its drag increases dramatically and that can matter when drag losses are added to the loss of power.  Strangely, people build their blades to be wider near the root (hub), which doesn't help lift there, since the blade is already in stall, but increases drag.  Go figure.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 08:58:04 AM by finnsawyer »

elvin1949

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Re: Stall?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 11:55:05 AM »
1 hp blades driving 10 hp alt.

 {ie lawnmower motor driving a caddie}

later

elvin
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 11:55:05 AM by elvin1949 »