Author Topic: Battery FAQ  (Read 6487 times)

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zeusmorg

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Battery FAQ
« on: July 07, 2008, 08:56:38 PM »
  Please read http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/7/7/20256/31335 and if you see any thing that needs correction or other questions pertaining to Lead acid batteries, (not wiring sizes, containers or anything else related) please post a comment and we will see about changing it to reflect any errors, clarifications, or omissions.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 08:56:38 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 07:37:17 PM »
in my opinion :)


most of what was posted is pretty good, but


a battery needs to rest at least 12 hours if not a full 24 hours before you can get

a very accurate specific gravity reading after a full charge, one hour is probably sufficient after a routine charge, but waiting for 24 after an equalization charge will provide the most accurate results.


sizing of the bank to the charging system or rather the charging system to the battery bank (however you wanna look at it) is very important.

however in my opinion one should have the charging capacity of around 25% of bank capacity because..


if the bank is moderately discharged it can handle higher amperage to begin with, and depending on what you are using to charge with will dictate the amount of time required to charge the battery.


overall i don't find much fault with your faq, however depending on what the system is (size, charging source, useage, etc) will alter some of the figures a bit one way or another.


but in general your efforts should be close enough to save a lot of folks from killing their batteries.


you might add a bit more about the use of a quality temperature compensated hydrometer and a good meter that is accurate to .01, too many folks try to get by on the cheap with crappy hydrometers and inaccurate meters in my opinion and thus

never know for sure whether they are fully charged, under or over charged.


it seems to me if you are going to spend real money on batteries not spending a few extra dollars to get good test instruments is false economy.


bob g

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 07:37:17 PM by bob g »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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pvale

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 08:40:59 PM »
All good info and I've copied it into a notepad window and saved it.


One thing I didn't see, was max discharge. I have a pair of golf cart batteries, that are rated 220Ah at the 20Hr rate. I have only 90 watts of panels right now, and I occasionally have to supplement the charge with a 25A Black and Decker invertor type charger I have. My constant loads are about 1A for about 24Ah discharge over a day's time.


I understand battery chemsitry to the point that if a battery heats under a too large charge rate, it must also heat under a heavy discharge. I've read a lot of info about the care and feeding of these batteries, but I don't think I've seen a max discharge rate anywhere.


I have my batteries in the basement, inside an old cooler, with a 2" powered vent rigged to the outside. I only run the fan during charging with the battery charger, as my panels don't get the batteries to the gassing point. I have an old E-Meter hooked up and it was about -40Ah after the sun went down, so my auxiliary charging tonight is going to let the E-Meter recalculate charging efficiency. I have a 80A type T fuse mounted right on the pos battery terminal, so I guess it's my discharge rate limit.


So what's the probable discharge limit for a 220Ah battery bank?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 08:40:59 PM by pvale »

wooferhound

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 09:52:44 PM »
and what is the Charge limit too ?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 09:52:44 PM by wooferhound »

ghurd

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 10:08:33 PM »
Like Bob said, most is good.

It is good to understand everything in the system.


Couple things need clarified.  Is 12.7V or 14.8V 100%?  Is 11.8V 35% or empty?


But in my opinion much of it is overwhelming or over thinking the plumbing, especially for newbies apt to read the FAQs who are confused enough without having to think about batteries as a magical complex device.


Do I care if it is 65% or 99% full?  Nope!  

I only want to use my hard earned RE power without ruining the battery.


If it is over 12.2V, use it.

If it is over 14.4 or 14.45V, it may be overcharged.

Equalize it every so often.

Life is good.


Just a bit concerned information overload will scare new people away.

G-

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 10:08:33 PM by ghurd »
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bob g

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 11:43:32 PM »
discharge and charge limits?


both excellent questions


as we all know or should know a 225amp/hr battery can deliver perhaps a couple thousand amps for a short period, into a dead short, so that is the extreme and likely hard on the plates of a true deep cycle battery.


i have read that one  can take for instance 225amps out of a 225amp/hr battery but not for an hour because the electrolyte will statify, but it is safe to do so without damage to the battery, so i would expect that is probably the maximum safe limit of discharge although probably still not what most would like to do.


so maybe one half that or maybe 100amps from a 225amp hour being likely a safe max discharge?  that is probably as hard as  would want to draw down a deep cycle and not with any regularity.


charging is another thing all together, when the battery is down to about 50% SOC

and below, it is able to take a rather large amount of amperage without issue.

certainly 25% of the amp/hr capacity and,  (if monitored for temperature gain) up to 40% of amp/hr capacity is not unknown. i have even seen reference to even higher rates of charge.


all things change at or about 80-85% SOC where the gassing starts to occur or

if the battery temps exceed ~110F, in either case the charge rate will have to be reduced accordingly.


most folks will find that getting to 25% charge rate a problem, and still more will find it near impossible to attain 40% charge rate on all but the smallest of battery systems. not many folks can generate and deliver 250-400amps into a 1000amp/hr battery bank. but it is not only possible but desirable for larger battery banks for efficient charging using fuel powered gensets, where runtimes being reduced = reduced fuel consumption= less dollars spent= lower cost per kwatt/hr generated, converted and stored.


for such a simple and well understood product (flooded lead acid battery) it becomes a bit more complex when you factor in all the  other variables that make up a complete system.


there ought to be an E=MC(2) equivalent equation :)


but sadly in my opinion there is not a single equation but a whole black board full of them using dozens of variables some of which are not static numbers but are variables in their own right.


thank god a lead acid battery is fairly forgiving, if not for this attribute

system failure rates would be as high as picking "winning" weekly lottery tickets.


the window of success is fairly wide, the goal being not to either habitually undercharge or overcharge the battery, keep in around 75F, clean and watered.


not much different than how we want to be treated!, i think most of us would last longer with fewer issues if we are fed right, not underfed or overfed (charged), worked within our ratings (discharged maybe to 50% capacity and not till we are flat beat to death), kept at around 75F, given good clean water, our back scrubbed (terminals/connections/case cleaned), blood pressure/sugar levels checked (voltage and specific gravity).


seems reasonable to me :)


seems a bit analgus to an old trucker who after 40 years and over 2.8 million miles on 3 mack trucks had never lost a single clutch, transmission, engine or anyother major component when asked what his key to success was...


"i drive my truck the way i would want to be driven if i had 80,000 lbs on my back"


can't fault that! :)


bob g

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 11:43:32 PM by bob g »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

wooferhound

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 06:56:14 AM »
right now there are 4 different Battery FAQs

if his doesn't confuse them one of the others will

but it's an important subject because batteries are the one component of a system that is expensive, more fragile, and we are dependent on them for the power we need
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 06:56:14 AM by wooferhound »

zeusmorg

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 07:24:02 AM »
 The voltage of 12.7 represents a 100% charged battery at rest, no load and no input.

At 14.7 this is showing max. charging voltage and a battery at 100% charge with an input of electricity, so these voltages would depend if you're testing during charging or with the battery disconnected. I'll look how to re-word that in the FAQ.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 07:24:02 AM by zeusmorg »

Opera House

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Fridge dump load
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 07:39:16 AM »
I am building a dump load controller that will turn on the fridge on for a 10 minute timed period.  Charge into the battery is usually about 6-8 amps max. Storing cold instead of putting it into a larger battery bank.  I am thinking of tripping it on at about 13.4V, no other load is on the battery except the fridge.  Like to start at as low a voltage as possible.  Battery will be equalized periodically at higher voltage.  How low of a start voltage can I have?  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 07:39:16 AM by Opera House »

domwild

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 08:24:44 AM »
Zeus,


Figures are for flooded lead-acids, SLAs are a bit lower. Am i right or are you wrong?


.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:24:44 AM by domwild »

zeusmorg

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 10:19:46 AM »
 I normally don't do this... Did you read the FAQ? Did you miss the top line?


 Let me re-iterate "FLOODED LEAD ACID BATTERY FAQ.not for SLA Sealed Lead Acid batteries" It also doesn't cover  AGM, ni-cads, nimh, lithium, or any other rechargeable battery type.


 If someone needs specific information about any other type, there is google available and a lot of battery manufacturers that have the information.


 It is also just a simple FAQ I didn't attempt to cover everything,that would take way more space than a simple FAQ should be.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:19:46 AM by zeusmorg »

zeusmorg

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Re: Fridge dump load
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 10:59:29 AM »
 Good q, it would depend on what state of charge you wish to maintain in your batteries, dumping below 14.5v will keep the battery from reaching a 100% charge state.

 A lower average state of charge will shorten battery life, but not as badly as too deep a discharge state.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:59:29 AM by zeusmorg »

AbyssUnderground

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 03:29:08 PM »
Perhaps this will help the OP, I found it last year...


« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 03:29:08 PM by AbyssUnderground »

AbyssUnderground

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 03:30:15 PM »
Whoops, meant to add, thats with a decent load on it of say 5-10A, from what it quoted on the page I got it from. I swear by this guide and its done me well so far.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 03:30:15 PM by AbyssUnderground »

spinningmagnets

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Re: Fridge dump load
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 08:15:04 PM »
This is a good idea! It should be its own posting.


Perhaps having a large fridge with a freezer that has a tub of water near the bottom that absorbs dump-cooling when converting to ice?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:15:04 PM by spinningmagnets »

domwild

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 10:43:47 PM »
Zeus,


My apologies! I stand corrected.

.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:43:47 PM by domwild »

wooferhound

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Re: Battery FAQ
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 06:12:01 AM »
That is a good chart, that whole webpage has great information . . .

http://solarjohn.blogspot.com/2007/03/measuring-battery-state-of-charge.html

« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 06:12:01 AM by wooferhound »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Fridge dump load
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 03:10:38 PM »
Using a fridge as a dump load means you're not controlling the temperature in the fridge.  This can result in:

 - Spoiled food from overtemperature.

 - Spoiled food from freezing of stuff that should have been merely cooled.

 - Spoiled food from temeperature cycling.

 - Spoiled food from freeze/thaw cycles.

 - Food poisoning.


This is like the stupid "flex your power" ad that suggested raising the fridge temp to 45 degrees.


Saving the cost extra food you need to buy to replace that ruined prematurely will more than pay for the equipment necessary to do dump loading right.  Saving the cost of a hospital stay from severe food poisoning could pay for a new and bigger RE system.  Saving the cost of a funeral and probating an estate ...

« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:10:38 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

bl23

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Re: Fridge dump load
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2008, 09:59:10 AM »
might it be better to heat your battery room ( if it is cool) to optimize the  temperature rather then storing to cold?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 09:59:10 AM by bl23 »