Author Topic: Copper interconnect straps  (Read 22322 times)

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Boss

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Copper interconnect straps
« on: March 26, 2010, 06:30:07 AM »
Wow, after many hours of surfing I can not locate the crimp lug I thought I saw a few months back at the first electrical supply place I saw. We own power lug crimpers, and made 6 cables for the series part of our battery bank.



These will interconnect the 12 volt batteries to bump the voltage to 24 like our Axial Flux alternator. Next I need to make the parallel interconnects. I had envisioned a copper bar, perhaps made of crushed pipe, but that was coming together and Spring is our traditional windy season.


Anyway I went back to looking for a lug with two cable ends creating a daisy chain effect. I can't believe this doesn't exist, the alternative apparently is two lugs per battery terminal.

Many places have thousands of different lugs, like here: http://www.elecdirect.com/catalog/1c3c2ede-3bab-4199-85a9-29c951bb82cc.aspx

I mean these are sweet,



From http://www.delcity.net/store/Anti!rotational-Crimp-Lug/p_1009.a_1

the price is ridiculous (US$2+ per) and I would need two per terminal for the daisy chain effect I am after.  12 batteries this would be at least 24 lugs.

So I went surfin again,

Here is an awesome website if you don't already know about it



http://store.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/index.html

well, it's awesome to me because I love non-ferrous metals.


Anyway, the copper bar stock is gorgeous, and really not that expensive.

I quote from their site" Thickness .250" x Width .875" x Length 36" Copper Bar Silver Flashed, Alloy C11000, Manufactured to ASTM-B187, Half-Hard Temper, Full Round Edge

A-247-250-087-036 $47.92

I'd need two, one for the positive and one for the negative side so, a hundred bucks, hmmm, tempting, but they also sell battery cell interconnect straps:



Sigh so many options,

and all I wanted was a double ended crimp lug so I can use the crimpers and cable we already own.

 

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 06:30:07 AM by (unknown) »
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PeterAVT

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 07:15:43 AM »
That's some pretty great research you did though. I'm saving the info. Have you tried any of the larger welding supply houses, or go directly to the manufacturers? such as Miller electric, or Lincoln electric?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 07:15:43 AM by PeterAVT »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 10:28:59 AM »
I think 2 lugs per terminal is pretty standard fare for RE battery systems. I actually found 2/0 lugs in stock at my local NAPA auto parts house last time I went checking.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 10:28:59 AM by Volvo farmer »
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SparWeb

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 11:33:21 AM »
I'd suggest the copper.  Try to find some big heat-shrink that you can wrap the areas between terminals, too.  Looks real "pro" when you do that.  Plus you can take the bars off a couple of years from now, strip the heat-shrink, and clean the oxidation off.  Can't do that with a crimped lug, without cutting it apart.  


Alternative: Maybe phone these guys:


http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?pagePrev=TRUE&dealerId=1392&pageNum=47


I know I know - wrong side of the border - just suggesting you look at auto/RV supplies for your terminals.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:33:21 AM by SparWeb »
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wingman1776

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 11:56:57 AM »
I get my copper sweat lugs from the local welding store you might try to look there. For on my battery they had a 1/4 inch post. I went to my electric supply house and get this kind of end.




« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:56:57 AM by wingman1776 »

wingman1776

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 02:04:54 PM »
sorry about the double post
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:04:54 PM by wingman1776 »

rossw

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 02:47:39 PM »
Interconnects have always been an issue for me. My first set were Aluminium simply because I had a reasonable amount readily available. A word to anyone who has similar thoughts - DON'T. They're nothing but trouble!<p>
My next set were scrap copper and were great (and 100% trouble-free) for the next 4 years.<p>
I've just (this week) upgraded my battery bank and was faced with the same "what do I do for interconnects" question.<p>
I rang around and visited an industrial switchboard manufacturer in the next town. He ordered me some "small" bar - he doesn't use this "little" stuff any more. So I got two lengths (8 metres, about 25 feet) of 25mm (1") by 6.3mm (1/4") bar.<p>
(Click photos for larger view)

[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/21mar2010/thumb.100_4199.JPG[/img] Cutting the bar into 125mm (5") lengths. The bandsaw made this SO much easier than last time, cutting them all by hand!<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/21mar2010/thumb.100_4200.JPG[/img] A small handfull of cut bars (for scale)<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/21mar2010/thumb.100_4202.JPG[/img] Drilling the links. There is a chunk of bar clamped inside the vice jaws to make a stop so I can drill accurately without having to mark each bar seperately.<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/22mar2010/thumb.100_4207.JPG[/img] They don't look very shiny in this photo, but they were really. This is half of the links, finished.<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/21mar2010/thumb.100_4205.JPG[/img] Nice to have the tools to set the nominal bolt torque right.<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/22mar2010/thumb.100_4210.JPG[/img] The completed bank. These are 2V 500AH cells in two parallel strings of 24 cells each for 48V, 1000AH (48 KWH)<p>
[img width= height=]http://house.albury.net.au/22mar2010/thumb.100_4211.JPG[/img] Viewed from the other end.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 05:40:49 PM by kurt »

97fishmt

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 02:52:57 PM »
Very cool, rossw
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:52:57 PM by 97fishmt »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 02:57:21 PM »
I'd put some sort of cover over those strips - just in case you're moving something conductive and it bumps into them.  (FLASH!)


Maybe a strip of plastic.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:57:21 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

rossw

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 03:03:40 PM »
There's still a lot of work to be done. The fuses (two HRC 200A 80KA interrupting) to be included yet, one on each bank, and as you say, some protection for the cells.


Upside is that this is the battery room. It's 4.6 metres underground, restricted access - basically just me, my wife and daughter - the other two have been clearly instructed that it is a "dangerous, high-energy area" and absolutely NO METAL area - they may not take tools, ladders, chain - anything metal - into or through that area.


They're well aware that if the explosion doesn't kill them - I most certainly will. :)

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 03:03:40 PM by rossw »

ghurd

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 03:24:42 PM »
What are your thoughts about (completely) tinning the CU with solder?


It seems to work out better in the long term for me.

G-

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 03:24:42 PM by ghurd »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 04:22:11 PM »
I'd go with that if the terminals are lead and I could get tin-lead solder and a suitable flux.  I'd expect it to virtually eliminate galvanic corrosion - especially if a trace of acid gets on the connection.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 04:22:11 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

methanolcat

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 10:54:53 PM »
Hey Boss,


     look this number up on mcmastercarr.com  website, 88865k311 its the same as what you have listed above, except 1/8 inch wider, (silver plated, rounded edges, 1/4 thick, 1 inch wide, comes in 36 inch lengths) and at half the price of what you found. $26.68 each.


     or the same thing in a 6 foot long bar, 88865K41 price $47.65, not a big price difference over the (2) 36 inch bars, shipping should be the same for both so 1 long bar or 2 short.


    I tried to copy direct links to these but it doesn't work because of their search method on the site, sorry


    Matt

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 10:54:53 PM by methanolcat »

Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 06:35:20 AM »
Hey thanks everyone, it is good to know I'm not alone and belong in this group with its vast knowledge.

Yes sir those copper straps are pretty, how does that work with the battery terminals on the side like that, Ross?


I finally broke down after a tough day working outside in the super strong northern New Mexico Spring wind on Friday and bought the Del City anti-rotational lugs


"Anti-rotational Crimp Lug      

        Designed for top post and side mount batteries Stackable for multiple battery hook-ups; stacked terminals can lock at 24 different positions for easier cable routing  36 "teeth" bite into the metal so the terminal will not rotate


        Terminals of different gauge sizes will easily stack and lock to each other.     Lugs crimp with crimper no. 990000 (all sizes) or 990005 "       


Check out this video if you don't own the crimpers,

Solder slugs can also be used for installation     click here to view proper solder slug use " http://www.delcity.net/documents/movies/battery_terminals.mpg


Before I pulled the trigger on the lugs, 28 of them, I called by buddy with the cable, and got him to read off the wire size "#2 AWG," he said. Awesome.

The whole order is ~$75 I got a couple extra just in case.


These crimp lugs are color coded so it is easy to pick the proper die for the crimpers


I still want to buy some copper, it seems like a great investment, stuff even looks like gold


Anyway, for my next act, I am fairly certain of this, will take any feedback I can get, but like the farmers say, "we're burnin' daylight." In our case the  wind is a  blowin'


      

AIMS 2500 Watt Power MSW  Inverter 24 Volts

Model #:PWRINV25K24V $249 from the inverter store,

but I may go with the less efficient pure sine wave inverter of less wattage, so I can feel better about plugging the refrigerator into it, if there is enough power.


      

AIMS 1500 Watt, 24 Vdc, Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter. FREE Remote.

Model #:PWRI150024S


I know these are like toys compared to Xantrec and Outback, but we don't have the cash to spare, and these are in the range of my bank account

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 06:35:20 AM by Boss »
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rossw

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 12:39:52 PM »
Yes sir those copper straps are pretty, how does that work with the battery terminals on the side like that, Ross?


The batteries are VRLA, AGM, and specifically approved for use either sitting on their end/bottom (terminals up) or horizontal mounting (as I have them).


I chose this way for a number of reasons which I'll enumerate if interested.


I took a moderate amount of care when putting the batteries down to minimise any forces on the terminals. To this end, I placed the cells, one at a time, and using an adjustable square made sure they were all aligned front-to-back to within half a mm (about 1/64"). Then I put the jumper in position and did the bolts up finger-tight.


I made a rod for my own back though, the bolts are M8, and I drilled the links with 8mm drill - the bolts just fit through the holes, meaning I had to position the cells

to within a few tenths of a mm or they wouldn't line up. Once I'd done one row, put down a sheet of 3/4" MDF and repeat for the second layer.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 12:39:52 PM by rossw »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2010, 02:36:04 PM »
Once I'd done one row, put down a sheet of 3/4" MDF and repeat for the second layer.


With nothing to align them against sliding off?  (Ditto the bottom row to keep it from sliding around.)


I take it you're not in an earthquake area?

« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 02:36:04 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

rossw

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2010, 04:22:49 PM »
No, I'm not in an earthquake prone area - we get a couple of little jolts a year - but at magnitude 3 odd, it's often hard to even know we've had one!


Added to that, my home is built on solid rock and is 4.6 metres underground.


If the batteries move - they're the least of my worries!

« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 04:22:49 PM by rossw »

DanG

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 11:03:25 AM »
The lug type you asked about is called a "flag terminal" and is most often sold for the lead post style batteries but there are various brass and copper crimps with the pass-through lugs out there if you search long enough...






« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 11:03:25 AM by DanG »

Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 04:22:08 PM »
Awesome, "Flag Terminals" thank you Dan

I'm going to Google them now and see what and who

Brian
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:22:08 PM by Boss »
Brian Rodgers
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Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 07:55:50 PM »
Interconnects are in and sealed cell batteries are charging

I need to change the voltage on our Ghurd's diversion load controller to work with sealed cell batteries
What voltage is recommended?
Brian Rodgers
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rossw

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 08:13:15 PM »
Is it intentional to leave no "breathing room" (air space) around your cells?

Do you consider there's any serious risk of cells overheating being stuck hard up against each other with only one and and the top, to help dissipate any excess heat during charging or discharging?

What's the "general view" for cell spacing?

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 02:49:18 AM »
Interconnects are in and sealed cell batteries are charging

Oh, dear!  You've got both the + and the - fed on the same end of the row of paralleled cells.  That makes the battery nearest the feed do most of the work and the ones at the far end loaf.

For starters move either the + or the - feed to the other end, kiddy-corner style, as a much-improved first approximation.  Then search the board for one of the discussions on even better arrangements.

Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 09:54:53 AM »
Okay thanks Rod, currently I have the load on one  end and the turbine input on the other, I'll switch around the leads today
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Sr WiNdTeCh

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 10:20:38 AM »
I find this link very informative...

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html
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Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 07:47:24 PM »
I like this statement  from http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html  "I think I am right in saying that this is the only example I have ever come across where doing something the correct way actually looks less elegant than doing it incorrectly." Bummer, but the logic is sound
So connecting diagonally helps some, but the third and forth examples are better.
Hmm, when does this learning curve give us a rest? Doubtless not even after we've built three or four of these systems, right? It is a good thing this RE stuff is more fun than anything else I've ever done.
The more I look at this layout the more I like it:
I take it the connections can have more resistance than the different cable lengths?
How would this work with 12 batteries though?


 
Quote
Then search the board for one of the discussions on even better arrangements
Keyword Suggestions?
I've been trying to locate the info I know I read before on the different voltages to set Ghurd's dump load controller for sealed cell batteries, no luck on three tries.
Anyone know how well a google search is working for the new board software?
Brian from Tusas


Brian Rodgers
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2010, 03:08:51 PM »
Keyword Suggestions?

"battery loaf"

Sr WiNdTeCh

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 07:48:40 PM »
ahaha.... You knew what would happen when I searched for that....  :P
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 08:51:21 PM »
ahaha.... You knew what would happen when I searched for that....  :P

Ah, I see.  Do it here and/or in quotes and all you get is the search term suggestion.  B-b  Sorry, I'm new to the software too.  B-)

A:  Take off the quotes
B:  Go up the tree at least to "Homebrewed Electricity" before you do the search.

That will get you to at least one of the longer discussions.  But it will still tend to find my summaries (rather then the postings that originally enlightened me on the need to do more than just kiddy-corner to get ideal balance) because I'm the one who tends to use the term "loaf" for the batteries that are doing less charging and discharging than their paralleled buddies.

Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 02:10:12 PM »
Thanks for the links and now I have the positive input & load at opposite corners , but I am looking at how I can accomplish the arrangement I posted above with six parallel - dual (series)  12 volt batteries. from: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html "Notice that for each individual battery, the current always goes through a total of one long link and one short link before reaching the loads."  Their arrangement makes sense, but adding two more batteries seems to mean I would need to stack more cable lugs per terminal, currently the bolts I have are too short for more than three.
I just need to stare at the pattern suggested alongside the picture of my bank and figure out a similar puzzle solution with the gear I have on hand, like the 8 unused  anti-rotational lugs I have left over from the original cable builds
Thanks for enlightening
   
Brian Rodgers
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ghurd

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 02:19:09 PM »
Easiest would be the 2nd Pos terminal and 5th Neg terminal.
G-
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Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 09:25:17 PM »
i was thinking something like that, or perhaps crisscross near the center
Brian Rodgers
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 10:40:25 PM »
I just need to stare at the pattern suggested alongside the picture of my bank and figure out a similar puzzle solution with the gear I have on hand, like the 8 unused  anti-rotational lugs I have left over from the original cable builds

You have eight connectors left over?  You are in LUCK.  (Don't wreck any of 'em.)

Starting from the daisy-chained version:
 - Unhook both jumpers between batteries 2 and 3, and between 4 and 5.  (Discard or save for spares.)
 - Hook a new 4-hop-long jumper between + on battery 2 and + on battery 6.
 - Hook a new 4-hop-long jumper between - on battery 1 and - on battery 5.
 - Hook a new 2-hop-long jumper between + on battery 2 and + on battery 4.
 - Hook a new 2-hop-long jumper between - on battery 3 and - on battery 5.
 - Hook up the feeds to + on battery 2, - on battery 5.
(Remember that "N-hop-long" means N times the wire length as a short jumper,
even if that means more slop lying about.)

Worst case stack is four connectors on a terminal.

Every battery sees:
 - 1 hop-length carrying 1 unit of current.
 - 4 hop-lengths carrying 2 units of current.

If you had more connectors and more wire we could come up with something with a tad less drop.  But this is balanced and has less voltage drop than (9/15ths that of) the original version with the kiddy-corner mod.


Boss

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Re: Copper interconnect straps
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2010, 11:09:57 PM »
Damn man this makes sense, I'll need to buy longer bolts, but that ain't no thing. I'll make sure to measure the new lengths to create multiples of the original lengths.
Brian Rodgers
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