Author Topic: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings  (Read 1697 times)

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wgatenson04

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Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« on: March 29, 2005, 06:19:21 PM »
I have just completed some renderings of the genny that I am building, and I just I thought I whould run them past you guys to see what you think of the design. Nothing except the Shaft, Mounts, and Disk are perminate yet.  Blade size/TSR has not ben determined as of yet, because I have not rated the genney yet.  Most likely the blades will be from 9 to 16 feet.  Blades are to be Fiberglass/Carbon Composite and foam core.  I have not finished the root molding yet.  The nacell is constructed of angle Iron, bolted(not shown) and welded together to form a T.  The horizontal peices have a 1/2" flat peice of steel in the middle of them to make them fit on the outside of the horizontal bars.  I have not rendered the stator or its mounts yet, but you can preaty easily see where that goes.  I am also fighting between using a yaw control motor or tail system, what would you guys recomend for a 5-10KW system?  If there is any major flaws that you see in the design please let me know.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 06:19:21 PM by (unknown) »

wgatenson04

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 11:20:35 AM »








« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 11:20:35 AM by wgatenson04 »

electrondady1

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 06:05:33 PM »
looks beefy, what sort of mag rotor dia. are you thinking about
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 06:05:33 PM by electrondady1 »

wgatenson04

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 06:29:38 PM »
they are 24" D, 1/4" thick
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 06:29:38 PM by wgatenson04 »

pyrocasto

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 07:43:48 PM »
I'm wanting to do something this big on maybe my next windmill, or the one after that. 40 neos will be a beast!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 07:43:48 PM by pyrocasto »

farmerfrank

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2005, 08:58:34 PM »
1/4 " is awful thin at 24 " diameter but would probably work. The attraction of the magnets will distort the discs somewhat but would be constant with no flexing so it should work. Just a thought
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 08:58:34 PM by farmerfrank »

kitno455

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2005, 09:42:39 AM »
your mainshaft is too far above your yaw bearing. with a 20 to 30 foot prop, you are going to find that the upper forward edge of your yaw bearing will wear quickly. roller bearings wont help much, cause you likely have a pretty consistent wind direction, and you will just concentrate the force on one ball. galled race before you know it.

move your pillow blocks down on the side of the nacell. i know this means slightly offset forces tending to yaw the prop, but far less that the forces attemping to pitch it in your current design.

also, if you do this right, you could make the pillow blocks movable, to change your static pitch angle.

rotor is really big and really thin. i would look into the possibility of adding a second disk, shaped like a shallow cone, or some spokes, to the back of each one.

9 to 16 foot blades is a huge range. you should re-design every thing in these renderings after you figure out prop size, as you are likely way over kill, or possibly marginal.

allan
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 09:42:39 AM by kitno455 »

wgatenson04

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2005, 03:37:45 PM »
The last rendering is just to show the bearing mount.  Actually there is 2 disks already, for a total of 80 neos, which I plan on reinforcing some how.  Once I rate it (genny output vs. rpm etc.) I can tell how big the blades need to be.  Also keeping the possibility open of adding another disk, and putting neos on both sides of one, for a total of 3 disks and 160 neos.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 03:37:45 PM by wgatenson04 »

wgatenson04

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2005, 03:56:29 PM »
So what your saying is I remove the flange bearing for the yaw and replace it with fitted tubes?  Also, if I am getting this right you think I should move the yaw shaft to the side and mount my main shaft lower?  As far as the overkill on the nacell steel, angle iron is cheap, expecially compared to everthing I am attaching it to, so if I spend 25 extra dollars on angle iron, I'll live.  Also the reason that I over built it was so if I decided at a later date, I can scale up the blades and genny without replacing the nacell.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 03:56:29 PM by wgatenson04 »

kitno455

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2005, 08:24:50 AM »
ok, difference in terminology maybe.


if your flange bearing is a single ball, with a big hole thru the ball, that allows for some degree of auto alignment, then that is probably fine. the big problem with those is how much axial load can they take (you have to have a separate thrust bearing), and the way they place their mounting bolts in single shear (high wind tries to cut the heads off the mounting bolts). by design, they prevent the shaft from being held at a right angle to the thrust bearing, causing thrust bearing to wear on edge.


heavy walled pipe around bronze bushings may be better. pipe is unlikely to bend much during welding, so you dont need your flange bearings, the bronze has a much greater bearing surface, is cheaper, and can be reamed as a pair once installed, if you need to. you can also get a bronze thrust collar.


i would move the thrust surface to the top of the pole, makes fabrication of the pole much easier, since you dont have to weld a flange at just the right height to the pole, you just drop the nacelle over the pipe.


in order for that to work, you will need a washer welded to the top of the pole, and to the top of the tube in the nacelle. this will make removing the top bushing harder, but maybe you can find someone with a really long cape chisel :)


resist the urge to use torrington needle thrust bearings, or any other kind of roller/ball bearing, unless you are very sure of tight manufacturing tolerances, and are using very hard materials as backing races. those types of devices are high-load and low friction, but only if all the balls are routinely sharing the load. they wont be in a yaw bearing made of pipe that faces the same way most of the time.


as far as the mainshaft, yes. move it down on the side of the nacelle. make the top yaw bearing as far above the mainshaft as the lower one is below it (or even a little higher) the overall lateral loads the yaw bearings see are not reduced, but the 'twist' that attempts to destroy their edges is reduced by spreading them away from the mainshaft.


switch to square tubing over angle iron. can be thinner and lighter for same strength, cost similar. figure out what you are doing with the tail. that will change the design a bit, especially if it is a fixed unit.


did you ever watch scraphead challenge/junkyard wars? the neandertal solution always won. (black powder cannon shooting cast iron balls with fixed breach beats smokeless powder lathe-turned shells free breach, blimp beats fixed wing, range rover with prop  and rudder beats transit van roof pretending to be an airboat, sealed container with batteries and wet electric motor and divers hanging on beats carved out, ride inside air powered belly tank)


unless you have a fully equipped high-quality shop building this whole thing for you, you are in a neandertal problem, use the neandertal solution. bronze bushings, pipe and washers, not rollers and flange bearings.


allan

« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 08:24:50 AM by kitno455 »

kitno455

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2005, 08:38:09 AM »
now that i look back at your renderings, i realize you are putting a shaft from the nacelle down into the pole. all of my above suggestions are based on the nacelle having a hollow tube that the pole goes into, all the way to the top of the nacelle.


your current design puts an incredible amount of bending stress on the lee side of the upper edge of the pole (where the material is flatter and thinner due to larger diameter), and on the weld where the yaw shaft leaves the nacelle (where the material is thicker, but smaller diameter). the later will fatigue in gusty winds, and the entire nacelle will snap off right there if the prop has any kind of size.


the extra weight of all that angle iron in the nacelle will only make matters worse, not better. thats why that kind of design is called 'iron mongery' :)


hope this does not sound critical, just want to keep everyone safe from flying gennys :)


allan

« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 08:38:09 AM by kitno455 »

wgatenson04

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2005, 12:10:10 PM »
Not too critical at all, this is the reason that I posted these drawings in the first place.  


Not to sound like an idiot, but what is the lee side of the pole? And which pole are you talking about?


Thanks for all your comments.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 12:10:10 PM by wgatenson04 »

kitno455

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2005, 02:49:16 PM »
downwind side, opposite of windward side. basically, as the wind is often from a consistent direction,  it is trying to bend the open top of the fixed tower pole into an oval at the upper end. if that cant take up the slack, the thinner insert pole will break instead. something is going to give in this design, likely under high winds, when it is most dangerous. :(


do another set of renderings and post them in a new thread if you feel like it.


all this work for 1/4 inch thick mags seems like overkill. you need thicker magnets methinks.


allan

« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 02:49:16 PM by kitno455 »

snah

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Re: Some Nacell + Blade Renderings
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 04:54:23 PM »
I used cable operated Tail system,offset 2 inches.My homebrew was 16 ft dia,around 10:1  TSR,don't remember the naca foil#.Ran @180 RPM(sycro) through a 10:1,#50 chain to a 5hp tefc farm Motor,used a Bike generator in back of Motor to feed signal to adj voltage relay which connected to Grid at sync speed.used both 240 and 120v depending on wind speed.

Seen 6 kw for hours on windy days.I used 12 inch dia,1/4 inch plate with welded in dodge tapered hub etc.the feathering mechanism ran on needle bearings,was too erratic,probably needed hydraulic damping.I made the fibreglass blades with foam core and inch and a half dia aircraft tubing,i would not go through the same design again.I guess i would buy blades from the Minnesota Co(don't remember the name).,they looked great. my project ended in 1979 when I decided to move out of the frozen wasteland(WI)sold the Mill and moved to GA,later to FL.

Simultaneously I also build a 12 Footer with Alternator which also was sold.

I had already planned to change the chain drive,which replaced a 3 inch wide cogged belt drive(kept jumping teeth)and use a 10:1 helically cut spur gear box,with 2 inch output shaft,used as input,and a "c"flange motor mount,which would have  been a clean intallation.Before hand I played with 180v PM motors(brushes lasted about 3 weeks)and Gemini Inverters etc.

So now I am retired being happy with my 2KW Solar Installation,getting between 7 and 10 KWH on a sunny day,a far cry from what windpower produced.:-)

good luck on your Project. 73s

BTW,slip rings are a royal pain,unwind the cable once a month.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 04:54:23 PM by snah »