Author Topic: Ghurd has good idea.  (Read 11980 times)

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ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2005, 08:29:20 AM »
Debating about the 'York' A/C compressor to a 12v motor.

Sound like it could be a money pit.


Q-"How many motors does it take to get the right one?"

A-"All of them, because they already sold out of the one you needed!"

« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 08:29:20 AM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2005, 12:22:00 PM »
"Q-"How many motors does it take to get the right one?"

A-"All of them, because they already sold out of the one you needed!"


Naw, you only have to buy one if you do it right like I do!


The correct one is always the last one you buy, SO I buy the last one first and then it's the right one :)


Kinda like when I lose car keys, I always look in the last place first and there they are and I don't have to look in all those first places anymore.


You know you always find the keys in the last place you look!!! Save time, look there first!


Also they say if you drop a key and can't find it drop a similar object in the same place. The first one you lost should be right nearby the second one you dropped.


IT WORKS!!!  Now I can no longer DRIVE the car OR get in the TRUNK, both keys are in the same place though, wherever that may be!!


OK you got me, the part about droping somthing is true, but no I did not lose both keys. I use a quarter and do generally find the nut or bolt I dropped.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 12:22:00 PM by nothing to lose »

yoshhash

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2010, 09:46:44 AM »
I know this is an ancient thread, but did anything come out of this discussion?  I still think it's a great idea, especially considering that they don't have electricity in this shop.

wildbill

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2010, 11:15:37 AM »
gee, you experts are talking about what i'm trying to do. i have a pond that i'm rying to air in. i was using an old HVLP paint motor(too old)the 115v 3A 4 poll didn't last long. wetness might of have something to do with it! i took the thing apart the compresser end is a bellows type nice sealed bearings so, i am going to try a six blade 6 ft pvc hub on the new longer shaft and some mods to the motor case. now that i'm whriting this i look out and there is zero wind. we'll see if it works. Bill

Fish4Fun

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2010, 02:14:05 PM »
Realizing the OP was in April 2005, I thought I might chip in a slightly different approach:

As a dump load, use electrolysis cells that separate the oxygen/hydrogen into two tubes.  Each tube contains a piston.  As the O2 and H2 pressure builds, the pistons move up the cylinders compressing regular air.  A pair of anti-parallel check valves in the Air portion of each tube allow compressed air to fill a secondary air storage tank.  When the pistons reach the "top" of the tubes, the O2/H2 is released into low pressure storage tanks, and the piston drops allowing some new air to be pulled in through the intake check valve. 

The advantage to this system is potential efficiency.  The H2/O2 can either be used in a hydrogen based generator, directly for heat or can simply be sold.  Obviously there would need to be some mechanical energy input to our "compressor" to make it cycle properly.  This input may be in the form of utilizing the 2:1 Volume/Pressure difference between H2 & O2, or may be as simple as a "spring" to help the piston "return" once the H2/O2 pressure is reduced.  In any case, the system could be easily combined with a solar array.

Obviously this system has the disadvantage of adding a flammable storage container to the site, and this may be an unacceptable risk, but it does offer energy storage in the form of Hydrogen and for very little extra effort it adds compressed air. 

Anyway, just thought I would add a little twist to ghurd's idea:-) 

Fish

hysteresis

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Re: Ghurd has good ideas.
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2010, 01:28:33 PM »
Notwithstanding the age of this dialog, and the variety of involvements; this is the engineering concept regarding this topic as myself and several other in discussion over time had been considering it..

Not just dump load secondary implementation, but primary implementation. Put the Compressor right on the blades. USE a yaw that has a slip fitting for air instead of brushes for wires; resulting in the following difference in the system configuration:

THIS then Eliminates running heavy copper wire and the resistance losses. You Run Air lines. 3/8 compression line will work since the volume is slow and continuous. There's no lightning problem like with wire since it's just an air hose.

Storage: Use an old Large 2000 Gallon propane tank, and lots of little hundred pound and 25 lb. tanks for taking air along on a truck. The main tank is capable of sitting with 1000+ pounds of pressure.

USAGE: Run regulators and air lines to places where electric motors once worked. They can run hundreds of feet underground between buildings. Gone is the inflated cost of heavy gauge COPPER and the line resistance.

Which brings up this which was mentioned down the threadline:
"OH. I never really saw those kinda tools ran on air. Is there any real advantage to that, other than not needing electric that may not be available. I mean if you have a choice of using either type and Grid power, any good reason to use air instead?"

In the answer there are many excellent reasons. Air motors make more torque for the amount of small energy that's passing through them. They are optimized devices. And readily available at low costs. As also mentioned HIGH speed motors have lots of advantages. You can take an air grinder motor and adapt it right into a kitchen mixer. IT fits right to the gear box and is small enough to fit into the housing.

NOW in the kitchen and in other places in your buildings, you put air female connectors in the wall beside the electric sockets, and you plug the mixer into that. This can also be done with a vacuum cleaner - shop vac too. 10,000 RPM is perfect for that kind of motor design. Think Appliances. These are other than the shop appliances that are already out there that run on air. They have air powered drum pumps and many other kinds available readily now.

How about a washing machine ? No one does wash all day. The wash cycle can use some of the air in a giant tank. Maybe 2% of it. An air motor can adapt to that nice and easy in the frame. Instead of hearing humming sounds as it agitates, you will hear whirring sounds going up and down.

You place secondary tanks in the destination house and buildings that are about 50 Gallons that is connected to the main tank outside, so that the air can release close to the usage location with regular size air line and carry CFM pressure.  The secondary (buffer) tanks are fed by a small lines that run between the tanks. Sort of an AIR GRID if you will..

As for the compressor on the gennie, Think of a Wankel engine, with a rotor piston, that would make an ideal compressor with less drag and low torque. Also, gearing down is not wrong, but ideal, since it gives torque required.

Regarding turning compressors at slow speed: I once checked out an OLD compressor which then sold on a prairie farm sale about 14 yrs ago that was made from what looked like an old ammonia refrigeration compressor from the late 1800's and it ran on a flat belt from a little 2 Amp 1/8 hp iron frame shunt motor from the teens. It went from a 2 inch sheave to a 24 inch sheave (flat belt pulley), so it only turned around 100 RPM. It took an hour to build 80Lbs of pressure into a large tank and it sat on a set of 400 pound iron trucks. Beautiful Antique. It barely even got hot. It had run in that farm shop for 3 generations. The grandfather had a light plant and glass case batteries back in 1926 with a complete 36 V DC system. That compressor ran on that with a 36 V motor at one time, and then had a 117V motor put on in the 40's when the REA brought in light poles.

Configuring a compressor that can be worked like this that is geared down from blades is a good thing to do. It can turn nice and slow, at 100 RPM and when the wind is blowing all night and day it will accumulate pressure into the large tank. No different than the old water pumpers drawing up a pint at a time out of the ground, which filled large water tanks as it ran.

That is the essence of the concept. IT's not meant to replace an electrical system, but to work as an additional system.

As far as the comment about modifying a Briggs engine to having reed one way valves and making it into a compressor; there are lots of articles in old pop sci and pop mechanics from the 50's and 60's where that project was done in a number of ways. It is extremely viable. Some of the changeover projects made compressors that had very little resistance, since the engines had short strokes and wide bores.

Also, regarding using engines for compressors: Several years ago, I scrapped a 1934 Model A motor that had the middle 2 cylinders modified to be a compressor which would fill large tanks used for jackhammers back then. THAT was the predecessor to the Ingersol Rand industrial trailer units that are used today which tow on Pindle hooks behind utility work trucks.. It was a standard adaptor package that one could buy off the shelf back then. It only used fuel in the 2 outer cylinders and the 2 inner cylinders became the compressor. The crankshaft was perfect for running the engine on 2 of the cylinders smoothly and performing this function.

======hys======

ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2010, 02:39:59 PM »
Strange timing.
After about 6 years of back-burner tinkering, this has come back on my list of things to finish.
A large part of the puzzle is expected to be independently beta tested over the next few weeks.

The electronics are sorted out.  It will work with ghurd, TS-xx, or Cxx controllers, and probably most others.
Pretty simple, after getting all the standard problems sorted out, then going old school on it.

Compressor is also sorted out.  There have been a lot of setbacks on physically acquiring the actual compressor unit, but the mechanical stuff is well planned out.

We just want to compress some air!
And do it cheap.

Fish's idea.  Far too complex.
Hysteresis' idea.  Not at all practical to very many actual users. Not even a little.  And on too many levels do expound.

I expect the total cost of adding parts to currently operating RE and air systems will be around $100 for many people, depending on what they already have in place.  Less for good scroungers.  More for very bad scroungers.
Between my spare junk, and the other guy's (who will use the compressor) spare junk, I doubt we will lay out $20 for more junk, mostly for pipe I think.  (we both have a lot of good spare junk)
G-
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Bruce S

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2010, 02:47:17 PM »
G-
Just picked up a 5 gal air tank at junk yard, even pressure tested it for me to 250psi for $5. New at HF for $37.99, pump "recycled" one from scooter unit that came with tire goop.
Anxiously awaiting your final field tests. Air hammer and all my old air sockets sets are waiting too.  ;D

Bruce S
 
Wonder what happened to NTL ?
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ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2010, 03:10:50 PM »
I don't think I've heard from NTL in about 2~3 years.

The 12V pumps that last are not manufactured or cost way too much, so we did the obvious and went with a low-volume high-pressure 120VAC and inverter.
Once I gave up on doing it all with 12VDC, everything came together much easier and cheaper.

Field test for the compressor is a known outcome.  It is a compressor.  It works.

Field testing for the electronics involves a bunch of 1/8W resistors (hint/hint  ???).  Works for me, when its put together properly.
The electronic circuit has a lot of other potential applications too.

The whole thing is actually quite simple, once that 6 years of tinkering is removed from the equasion.  :-\
G-
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Bruce S

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2010, 03:26:07 PM »
I thinking about this a little further.
I went the route I always do when thinking outside the bun, towards my hydroponics, namely having yummy tomatoes in the winter.
My little one runs on 12Vdc ~300ma fully submersible. This would be in line with using my nearly portable NiCd packs I move in and out when everything is fully charged.
Nearly portable is a smallish 12vdc 5Ahr NiCd pack that I put into the system before I leave in the AM and reconnect at night when I return, full charge or not.
 
Keeping in mind my system is a hobby and only 1 tomato plant in the mini-system ( its normally my cloning unit during summer season).

AND my system is also a hobby, so critical is not needed.
I got the hint. NO room for 1/4 watters :-)

AND mount chip on socket! check!
 
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TomW

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2010, 03:44:06 PM »
Sir Hurd;

What value 1/8 watt resistors?

I used to by strips from the ends of manufacturing runs on feebay.  For "some day". Some day ain't likely to show up now  ;D.

If I have the values I likely have a few.

I am kind of high on price but whats a few hundred bucks between pals?

Tom

ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2010, 04:46:56 PM »
What value 1/8 watt resistors?

About 10 different values of 1/8th?  33k, 68k, 1k, 10k, 100/120/180/220k...?

BTW- Don't worry Mr. Beta tester, yours will be preassembled, if I can ever get to the shop for doing it.
Sorry its taking so long.
And you did not even realize you fell under the "The electronic circuit has a lot of other potential applications too" clause.
G-
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Rover

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2010, 04:50:46 PM »
Hmm Ebay, over run.. hmm think I'd be asking Tom about the tolerances :)

probably some of them real cool 10% jobs.

Don't hit me Tom
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Bruce S

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2010, 05:37:06 PM »
if I can ever get to the shop for doing it.
G-
good luck with that snow thing we sent y'all.
Pretty for Christmas, now NOT while trying to get to work  >:(

Cheers
Bruce S
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clintonbriley

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2010, 10:01:52 PM »
The most promising work of storing compressed air I've seen is that which uses inexpensive bladders anchored in deep water.
In this case the pressure of the compressed air is constant so there aren't any variable pressures to deal with like are experienced
while filling or emptying air tanks.  Too bad the majority of us don't have that resource available for home spun energy storage.
Water pumping windmill style blades and some others will be self regulating for rpm, but if coupling more efficient blades directly to a typical air compressor,
some type of governor (pitch control or air brake, etc.) may be needed to keep your turbine blades from over-speeding when compressor load is low. 
As has been pointed out here by others, efficiency is low due to the loss of heat generated during the process of compressing air.  This problem
can be compounded by the excessive cooling of the compressed air while tapping your storage resulting in a further drop in efficiency.
The faster the compressed air is used, the bigger this problem becomes.  Using a heat exchanger to reheat the air is necessary to prevent this
extra loss in efficiency.  This is a big problem for the compressed air cars in cold climates since there isn't much energy in the winter air for this purpose.
Clint




hayfarmer

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2011, 01:28:38 PM »
I have a Vector jump starter with the air. Turned it on once to see if it worked.

The old Camry uses the jump start every time. Norm saw it work.<p>
Motor and 5-spd tranny are great, but she is going to the crusher in a tad over 30 days.

Needs a timing belt real soon. The rest is not really (REALLY NOT) fixable.

I'll keep the new tires.<p>
Anybody want it?

Free without wheels, for a good use.

Or half what I paid for the tires.

Younstown, OH area.


how about cabling the vector to any 12 volt system such as a battery in a car and letting the charging system charge the vector and use its compressor and
charged battery (free of charge) ;) so to speak,do the vectors have a deep cycle battery in them? or is this a battery that is doomed for short life?

ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2011, 01:52:52 PM »
how about cabling the vector to any 12 volt system such as a battery in a car and letting the charging system charge the vector and use its compressor and
charged battery (free of charge) ;) so to speak,do the vectors have a deep cycle battery in them? or is this a battery that is doomed for short life?

The battery would last longer than the compressor.
Those small compressors have a function life measured in hours at best.

The compressor in Vector I spoke of back then is toast.
IIRC, the valve came appart, and a couple important pieces fell in the cylinder.  They were beat out of shape very bad.
G-
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Seyiwmz

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2011, 05:21:49 PM »
How about driving a 2 stage compressor atop the windmill that's piped to a storage tank, something like a used 500 gallon propane tank.  Then using electric  control valves to release the saved/compressed air tank into something like that steam powered PMG that's on the "otherpower site".  Instead of steam it would be compressed air powering the Axial flux PMG.  You could regulate the speed via a "air regulator" and run it at a gentle speed as to not overheat the stator.   Or overspeed an induction motor if you want. 

ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2011, 10:38:07 PM »
How about driving a 2 stage compressor atop the windmill that's piped to a storage tank, something like a used 500 gallon propane tank.  Then using electric  control valves to release the saved/compressed air tank into something like that steam powered PMG that's on the "otherpower site".  Instead of steam it would be compressed air powering the Axial flux PMG.  You could regulate the speed via a "air regulator" and run it at a gentle speed as to not overheat the stator.   Or overspeed an induction motor if you want. 

That is backwards from the whole idea of getting something useful from the electrical power that can't be stored.

Compressing air is not an efficient operation.  Compressing air to make electric is not a great idea, IMHO.
I don't think there is a whole lot of electrical power to be recovered in a 500 gallon air tank.
G-
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joestue

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2011, 11:02:11 PM »
Quote
Storage: Use an old Large 2000 Gallon propane tank, and lots of little hundred pound and 25 lb. tanks for taking air along on a truck. The main tank is capable of sitting with 1000+ pounds of pressure.

a 2000 gallon tank capable of holding 1000 psi is called a 2000 propane tank, and its also called a bomb.
EDIT: i don't recall what the standard safety factor is, but 1000 psi is well past the upper limit. figure 5:1 safety factor about 600-700 psi burst
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:29:28 AM by joestue »
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bob g

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2011, 12:23:08 AM »
the overall efficiency is quite low, however

if you pump the tank full and have the tank oriented to where the sun can heat it
and paint it black. you can use the energy from the sun to help with some of the heat losses due to the work compressing the air in the first place.

bob g
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large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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MattM

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2011, 07:31:55 AM »
What about using the inert gas-hydraulics combination for storage?  Chrysler is working on the concept for larger vehicles, not so practical for a small vehicle.

ghurd

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2011, 09:54:53 AM »
the overall efficiency is quite low, however

if you pump the tank full and have the tank oriented to where the sun can heat it
and paint it black. you can use the energy from the sun to help with some of the heat losses due to the work compressing the air in the first place.

bob g

HA!  That assumes there is some sun!  This is NE Ohio.  :(

Plus, building an air compressor windmill seems kind of silly for the cost involved compared to the air it would supply around here.

As a dump load, with a bit of additional circuitry, very little cost involved.
G-
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bob g

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Re: Ghurd has good idea.
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2011, 11:30:59 AM »
i agree, making electricity to power a compressor to pump air, store, and then reuse to power and airmotor to drive a generator to charge a battery to feed and inverter to power
something is going to be about worthless

might make a good electron vacuum however?  :)

my thinking was maybe an old pumper mill with a direct drive compressor up on the tower, running anytime there is wind sufficient to pump air.

certainly some parts of the country would be better than others, the SW with hot sunny days might be best?  pump when it is cooler overnight and not use the air until the next afternoon when the flat black painted tank is hot enough to cook on.

then use the air directly to power a specific load without the intervening generator, battery inverter losses

it might be under certain circumstances that such a setup might compete well with a electric genny, if you factor in battery first cost and depreciation into the true cost of the
produced power vs the first cost of the compressor and tank, and depreciation of the compressor to make it fair.

i think i read somewhere that such a system might reach 60% overall, not accounting for the wind motor efficiency.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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