Need reality check from experienced folks

[Clydesdale]

Long story short, in about a year me and mine will be moving to the middle of nowhere and plan on using all green energy.  I've been looking into what is needed to make that happen and looks pretty straight forward as I have most of the tools needed and such but I'm not too up on my electronics/electricity just yet..

The question I have is this:

What can one expect to be able to run off a system?  Obviously the more sources you have the more batteries etc, the more you can run.    The plan is to use sunlight for lighting during the day using solar tubes and such and have LED light arrays for night time lighting.   Other than that there would be few other items to run but they're all power hogs I'm sure.  At least 2 PCs, TV and Sat hookup etc.  How big a system would you need to run say two 600 watt PC PSUs for several hours a day?   I've been reading about the power output of the systems etc and they're all low wattage etc so I'm gussing that in order to run what we want we'll need to have a big enough battery bank to supply it and enough sources of power to keep them charged, can somebody already in the know give me a ballpark of what we'll be looking at?

Thanks,

Clyde

[kitno455]

$$$, then some $$$

seriously, you have not given anyone enough DATA to answer your question. you need to buy a kil-a-watt meter, and measure the amount of power you are actually using, not the name-plate rating on anything. figure out how many KWh's you use in a day. you also have to account for things like surge loads from the startup of induction motors, etc.

then figure out the capacity of your charging sources. if you live in a place where the sun always shines and the wind always blows, or diesel engines and free fuel are available, your battery bank can be (slightly) smaller.

oh, and if your pcs are so high power that you NEED a 600W PSU, you might want to rethink this idea

allan

[Countryboy]

Clyde,

  You have effectively asked, "I have a vehicle.  How much gas will it use?"

Figure out how much power you have available to you, and THEN decide how you will use that power.

One computer should be adequate.  However, desktop computers are power hogs.  Get rid of the desktops and get a laptop computer.

You admit you aren't up on your electricity/electronics just yet.  That should be your first indication that you need to spend several weeks/months studying.

If you want to be 'green,' then don't bother with electric as your primary energy.  Make your own tallow or beeswax candles.  Heat with firewood.  Carry water in buckets from the spring.  Insulate the dickens out of your house, so you don't waste the energy you have.  Learn food storage without refrigeration - the pioneers didn't have fridges and deep freezes.  Live this kind of lifestyle for a while.  If you then decide that electricity is a necessity for you, you will be certain to make the maximum use of any electricity you have available to you.

[Clydesdale]

Yeah, after reading some more on some of the other boards I realized "Well, that was a dumb question."

And Yes, at least my PC needs the 600W supply, tho I doubt it draws that much constantly.   Aside from the PCs and the TV I don't think we'll be using all that much power.   And realistically considering we'll be working the land and what not I doubt we'll actually be running the PCs much.  

Still, seems to me that how long you can run something like this PC will be very much dependant on how many batteries/types/size etc. you have, providing you have enough power input to keep up.  $$$ as the Kinto said!  The land we're most likely going buy has wind and water, solar too in the long run.   I'll have to actually see about how much power we're actually using.  Have to shut off everything but what we expect to use and go watch the meter for a bit I suppose

As for living 'green' we're working on that already and plan to use every trick we can find, but we also plan to be high tech as much as we can manage. I.E. very low power LED light arrays instead of Candles.  We're planning with WITH electricity being the primary power source. We want to be off the grid, not travel back in time to the frontier.  I'm pretty sure technically possible to power an efficient modern home and not feel like Grizzly Adams.  If it costs more money then so be it, we'll deal with that when the time comes.   I'm sure our plans will have to change and adjust as they go along.  Who knows...perhaps we'll get lucky and that generator Steron has come up with actually is what they think it is.

[ghurd]

LEDs are great.  

But certainly don't buy all the BS from the guys selling them.

Or the media saying in 5 years all the cars will have LED headlights because they won't burn out and will save gas. (they can't ((won't)) do 3rd tail lights that don't fail)

LEDs are good for a small amount of light.

Flashlights, headboard mounted reading lights, nightlights, sidewalk or stairway.

Larger amounts of light are best left to FL or CFL.

Living room, kitchen, etc.

LEDs need to be well under driven to beat regular bulbs, and LEDs are not free, so junk is over driven to make more money.

"Fancy" high-powered LEDs are not as efficient as regular bulbs. No matter what.

White LEDs will NOT last 100,000 hours if driven as rated.

Cheap LED devices over-drive the LEDs to make more light, lowering the efficiency, shortening the life of the LEDs and batteries in an incredibly dramatic fashion.

For 12VDC in a well designed device, past about 36 LEDs means a CFL is better.

For 120VAC, LEDs have no chance compared to FLs.

There are exceptions where LED arrays could still be better, like extreme temps, long life being more far more important than efficiency or cost, etc.

Wind power is cheap, solar is predictable and reliable. Both is a good idea.

PCs are better with LCD monitors, but laptops are still best.

Not sure how desperate I'd have to be to use, let alone make, candles.

Sorry. Sounded like you believed the LED sales ads.

I make good quality LED stuff. That LED part struck a nerve.

G-

[pepa]

Welcome to re world Clyde, you have a year to plan and prepare. Number one on your list is to look at your future sight to see what kind of natural resources you have to work with. Wind, is there enough at the sight to make it worth while. Location for wind tower, miles per hr. of winds, trees, hills, distances from electrical use to tower. Is there a stream for hydro, (head, high to low fall of water) water flow gal per min. free source of used oil close by for heat and power energy? Wood for heat and power energy. Solar, some energy in most locations. You need to know. The more resources you have, the more power you will have available to use to make life as moral as possible. Without the answer to these items you can not plan properly. This board is a good place for answers if you give enough information. When you receive an answer, research it, and follow up all research until you understand and can use the information or reject it and go in another direction. Almost everything you can think of or need has been tried and discussed here. .some of the answers will be discouraging and others will be encouraging. But no one will mislead you, just do your homework and you will be fine. Pepa.

[Clydesdale]

"But certainly don't buy all the BS from the guys selling them."

Actually, I have no idea what you're talking about  I make my own stuff and I have a line on about as many bright LEDs as I want, the only stuff I've actually seen for sale are the bulb replacements you can get from Think Geek.  I've been tinkering with LEDs for a couple months now, created a simple array to replace some halogen under counter type lights we have that kept burning out..not to mention got burning hot as well.  

FL/CFL is also something in our box and I suspect we'll probably end up using those for general lighting.  I'm finding the LEDs tend to be too focused, and the volts do start adding up...in any case still a bridge we have cross yet and I've plenty of tinkering time ahead of me to figure stuff out.

The idea I have for the LEDs is mainly a kind of track and spot lighting with FL/CFL where we need them, which is basically what you said.  Plus the light from LEDs is even more harsh than FLs unless you're creating the white light with primary colors, while still kind of harsh it looks more like real sunlight.  I used to work for CREE, who makes all kinds of them.  They have a neat demo room and one of the things that struck me was white light they created with a Red/Green/Blue array...looked very much like sunlight, just no warmth to it. Those things took a lot of power tho, they even had heat sinks and fans on some of the bigger ones.

There's these new quantum Dot LEDs too but I don't know if they consume less power than current ones.

CD

[Clydesdale]

Thanks Pepa  We're a good year or more out from actually starting on this project, there's a whole group of us actually buying land in the same area and plan on doing the same kind of thing.  I figured it's best to start learning this stuff early!  

[pepa]

i would love to join in this venture but am a little past that point,i know that that you will make it work, espically with a group effort. follow the progress of the boiler unit i am building and posting in my diary. i have had a lot of good help from the board members and more to come as i move forward with it. the unit should produce living space heat, refrigration, hot water, and electricity from the same boiler using free untreated used cooking oil. mite be something you can use along with your other power makers. pepa

[ghurd]

Candelas and lumens are not very apples to apples, even with the formulas.

ANY and EVERY LED using a heat sink or a fan... thats just what I was talking about!

They suck on the efficiency. Compare them to good quality 11W 12V 0.920A CFL.

I make LEDs with 2 theta 1/2 @ 160'.  Multi chip technology.  Super efficient.  Too cool.  

Still, CFLs beat them, except in low level or focused lighting.

[veewee77]

Run the calculator here and figure your watts and then it will tell you how much you need.

Use the direct (not efficient) one so you will get accurate results.

Doug

[wpowokal]

Clyde,

http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads_past_articles.cfm

http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads.cfm

Scratch around these two links.

allan down under

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

RE currently is nowhere near breakeven versus grid power - with one exception:  If you are building a new home somewhere where it will take several thousands of dollars to get the grid power run, you can come out ahead by spending that money on an RE system instead.

But you MUST discuss this with your contractor IN ADVANCE - and be sure a generator and fuel for it is in his estimate - or he WILL assume you WANT power, will have the power company string a drop for his tools, and you'll be on the hook for the cost (with a lien against your propetry from the power company if you don't pay up) and you won't have the bucks you earmarked for your RE system.

(Happened to me.  B-(  )

Once the grid is strung, RE only makes sense economically if you get something ELSE out of it to offset the cost.  Satisfaction, hobby fun, etc.

(I need to put in backup power due to repeated outages - so I MIGHT get SOME  improvement in the cost structure by having the backup be an RE type battery/inverter/charger system rather than a straight UPS of equivalent size.  Then my cost becomes the charging system plus the cost premium for the RE's inverter/batteries over the UPS' version.)

[wooferhound]

Don't use LEDs if you want efficent lighting. LEDs are as efficent as a 100watt incandescent lightbulb.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_lighting.html

Don't use a desktop computer wth a CRT Screen. Use a laptop that is running straight from your 12 volt DC battery.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/5/28/143511/370

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/8/27/34023/1527

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/2/24/225230/527

[finnsawyer]

You say a group.  How big a group?  All of a sudden you have changed the parameters.  Perhaps it would be most economical to bring in grid power.  Or to consider the group buying a larger wind mill together, beyond what people are building here, and perhaps to connect that to the grid.  Does that area have a net metering law?  You have a lot to consider.  And yeah, I know it's hard to get more than two people to agree on anything, but money talks.

[Clydesdale]

There's about 5 pairs of us, give or take, we'll be scattered through at least 40-50 acers if not more with individual places.  It's all still in early planning stages at this point.  Part of the land is already aquired, waiting for some legal issues with the rest of the land to get cleared up.   Can't bring in grid power, I don't think it's even run out as far as this area, pretty much wilderness.  And besides, bringing in grid power completely defeates what we're trying to do.

[Clydesdale]

Thanks!   That's turning out to be quite usefull

[Bruce S]

CD;

   There was another person on here who used the LEDs for floor lighting as well. He has a house boat and uses them for that. I've built a few of them with that in mind and they are perfect.

I however use the diffused yellow ones, NM=588 MCD=4100 and 1/2@ 23D. They have a nice soft glow and with help from G- I made sure and only 1/2 drive them.

Back while the power was out due to the storm they stayed on the entire time didn't even worry one bit about the batteries.

And with there high-durability I use these around the power tools , make me feel safer when wet cutting .

With all the work you seem to have done with LEDs, do you have any unique tricks or wisdom to add to the knowledge base here?

Cheers

Bruce S

[nothing to lose]

Yes, I have some of Ghurd's stuff. He makes good Leds.

 I have coverted a few items to Leds using his.

But I second what Ghurd has said, for area lighting like a room leds are not as good as CFL or such.

I was renting a house with a steep stairs that I kept offgrid, Ghurds leds were very useful to me as stair lighting at night! I ran a thin board along the stairs  with leds wired in and connected to batteries. Worked well when we had weekend guest so they wouldn't fall down the stairs. Leds lit each stair nice so you could see them and used little power.

[nothing to lose]

"there's a whole group of us actually buying land in the same area and plan on doing the same kind of thing."

Hey my kinda people,

 Maybe the old fashioned barn raisings are comming back in trend.

Where abouts. I pretty much decided on Canada myself, but stll looking at other areas.

[nothing to lose]

"RE currently is nowhere near breakeven versus grid power "

That is changing fast! It could be even, or it could be even less for off grid.

Keep in mind with grid power some of us are paying $17 per month now just to have a meter in the yard! Yes, just to have power available for IF we use it, then we still have to pay for anything we use. Some places may be even worse with extra costs!

A few years ago it was like $8.50 per month meter charge, they raised it to $12 per month, now $17!!!

 Nearly double in about 5-6 years or less!!! Okay, thats' $204 per year right now for NO POWER that I could put into buying batteries and other equipment. Any power I use costs above that, so more money I could put into making my own.

10 years X $204 is $2040, don't sound like alot now, but that is to have NO POWER at all that I would be paying that amount!

Add anything I actaully pay for power to that then. Say I use actaul $200 in electric in 6 months, that's $400 per year in usage so another $4,000 in 10 years. But wait that just went up also this year! I still hear beeps from UPS's that the power went down, so prices went up same crap quality though every day. About half the off grid stuff I need anyway just so the computers don't crash durring power glitches, so should we include those costs for backups in RE, I don't think so since they are needed on grid anyway!

In my situation and that of many others, a good inverter, some batteries, a couple wind gennies, all would be paid for within 10 years easy and going to RE we reduce some loads also and better manage others, thus payback could be even faster.

Every situation is different, but RAPIDLY throughout the USA in many rural areas where wind gennies can be used RE is becoming more cost effective than it has been in the past. For what it cost me for grid power then, not alot, I would go RE today and tell them where to go instead!!!

[nothing to lose]

Hey woofer,

That's good advice except that I built my desktop for around $500 and a laptop not as good costs maybe $1500. Although Laptops use less power people need to think about the costs also. What's better, use more power or pay an extra $500 or $1000 for one item that uses less power? How many hours of use will make a BIG differnce on the power used also.

 For the extra costs I'd stick up a small cheap extra genny to make the extra power.

I see alot of talk about the laptops and they are good for many people or for a main low power system like surfing the net. If I had one I would use it most the time, but I need to replace 2 computers now myself and at the prices of laptops I can build a far better system for far less money. Replacing 2 desktops, that means 4 systems in a few years, two old and the two new, that would be about an extra $1500-$2000 in costs. Monitors on desktops are like new, just the systems aren't working well, one not at all.

We need to think about repairs and upgrades as well. A desktop is cheaper for almost everything compared to a laptop. It uses more power, but only when turned on, so the hours of use makes a big differnce also.

[fungus]

Well lets say you are trying to power a computer from solar. Base the price at £3 or $4 per watt. A laptop will take maximum 100w power. That would be £300 or $400 max. Now with a desktop which takes max 600w power then it would cost £1800 or $2400.

Total for laptop:$900

Total for desktop:$3100

Of course there is other factors to take into account like hours of usage, hours of sunshine, battery and inverter costs etc. This board is about homebrew electricity so power consumption makes a big difference to some people.

[fungus]

Woops.

I mean:

total for laptop:$1900

total for desktop:$2900

thats an extra thousand dollars.

[bj]

    Can't tell you what to do, but can tell you what I have done.  Do

Reality check.  Buy a WATT meter.  Most of them are pluggin types, so

you have to do indivdiual checks.  Then, decide what you need.  I

personly would advise you to go about X 3 of what you think you would need.

    You have to plan for what may be the worst thing that can happen.

    The good thing is that you won't go without power in the next

disaster.

     Good luck

     bj

[nothing to lose]

"This board is about homebrew electricity so power consumption makes a big difference to some people."

Ya, me too.

 But sometimes looking at long term total costs it might be better to spend a bit more to make a little extra power to waste. I'd like a laptop myself, nothing fancy, save alot of power just surfing the net here, almost 12hrs a day for 3 people, and it's only dialup anyway, no high speed. But it takes a very expensive fancy laptop to replace my main PC, often only used a few hours a day and sometmes goes weeks not even turned on at all recently. So alot may depend on the systems uses, Not worth a $1500-$2000 laptop cost to save power used by my main system, well worth some money to me for an old used laptop to just replace the Net computer.

 Most people don't have 4 systems, but we do, and 4 laptops would not be worthwhile here based on hours of use for each and the power used by them. 1 laptop would be very good though with an external LCD 17" monitor.

Kinda my point, I try to think in general averages but not just MY one situation.

 Sometimes the cost to save power is more than the cost to make it, and if free sun or free wind, neither of which polute, go for saving the most money in the long run.

I feel this way about fridges also. Ok spend $1,000 more for a Fridge that uses less power and replace in 10years, or spend $1000 more for solar pannels etc.. and use the cheaper Frig using a little more power, no brainer, in 20 years you save the extra $1000 on the replacement Fridge buying a second cheap one compared to a second expensive power save model!

 I know laptops use less power generally, but it may also depend what is being done with the computer how much power is saved. I have ran a desktop long periods many times on a smaller inverter and a battery. I know it used more power than a laptop would have, but I was not maxing out the 300 watt power supply in the system so how much was the computer really using? I generally try to put in a 400-500 watt power supply when I build a bigger system, but I have replaced those if they went bad with a 300watt and the system still ran fine till I bought a larger replacement. So I was not using the 500watts, it was just available if needed.

If a desktop system is using anywhere the MAX 600watts, well all I can say is your talking some real power user stuff going on and your looking near maybe $5000 for a laptop to keep up with that desktop system! If only used 5 hours a week would it be worth it?

You have a point, with solar the extra cost adds up reall fast to get a little extra power. Alot faster than with wind.

It all depends on each situation alot what may be best for people with many things though. Like I will have mostly wind power, maybe someday a little solar also.

One of the things I think about also in cost is replacement. Solar pannels should last what, about 20years? How long before you want to replace a computer? Maybe never if just used for surfing the net and if you get lucky, but for work type stuff?

Say a laptop lasts 5 years but costs only $600 more than the equal desktop? In 20 years you buy 4, that's $2400 extra to save power and not need those extra solar pannels that cost the extra $1000 now. A $1400 LOSS over 20 years? $70 per year loss?

Of course we can only barely predict the future. Some great new computer product may cause us to want a new computer every 2-3 years. What's new in the last few years for computers? USB, Firewire, Wireless network cards, DVD burners, mostly all within the last 5-10 years etc.. What's comming up in the next 20?

Could be a hurricane would wipe out solar pannels in 3 years???

It's all just an educated geussing game really. Last year many people lost everything they owned to Katrina, would it matter to them if $10,000 was in solar pannels or laptops and Fridges once destroyed by the storm, probably not, same money invested in a gas guzzling boat would have been better for some of them perhaps.

In general as a group we should probably point out both sides of some things, let the end user decide for himself what is best for him, best for you may not be best for me, and best for me is not best for the next guy. We need to remember that at times and mention such things.

 Over the last year or so I have seen a few ME ME ME, or I I I  type posts about whats best for just that one person as if the best for everyone, but it is not best for everyone it was just best for him and maybe a few others.