Author Topic: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets  (Read 20978 times)

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Ovais

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Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« on: May 31, 2010, 03:08:50 PM »
Can anyone share his or her experience of using Neodymium magnets in Hugh Piggott's Brakedrum Alternator design.

I have the following queries:
1. With the neo magnets how much power can I expect in 10 and 12 inches brakedrum's internal diameter?
2. Do I need more gap [greater than 2.0 mm] between coils and magnets to get reasonable power is low wind?


Many thanks.

Ovais

Flux

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 04:06:25 PM »
The brake drum type alternator works very well, the main snag is finding components that fit, you don't have many choices compared with the axial machine. The other snag is that you can't change the air gap if you get the cut in speed wrong.

 How much you get out depends on what wind speed you optimise the winding for, if you go for low wind cut in you will limit the top end output.

To give you some idea a machine I built with 10" core in a 12" drum with 40 curved neo voice coil motor magnets gives over 1500W when wound for cut in at 10 mph with a 10ft prop and furls about 25mph. The speed below 10 mph is matched with a boost converter. I suspect it could be pushed to well over 2kW wind rating but I used epoxy to hold the coils and it gets soft over 100 degC.

If you wound for cut in at 6 or 7 mph you would reduce the rating and hit stall, the performance would then be something like with the ferrite magnets but you could use much less magnet material. Don't expect to just change the magnets, it needs a complete redesign to make best use  of the neo.

In many ways it is a better method of construction but presents trouble finding cores and it is best suited to someone with a lathe to make all the parts fit, if you can manage this then you can make a fine ,machine with not much more iron loss than an axial and with much better cooling.

Flux

Ovais

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 04:39:41 PM »
Thank you Flux for your reply.

How much gap did you use in your designs?
What was the size of your curved magnets?
Is it not better to target low wind which is more common? How can I avoid stall in a low wind designed alternator?

For fine tuning the design can I use a test coil -as it is used in axial flux designs? [The method described in book Homebrew Wind Power]

Ovais

piglet2

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 04:42:35 PM »
Hello Flux.

Is somewhere here a picture of this alternator?

/piglet

Flux

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 02:06:18 AM »
Sorry, I am away in a few minutes, has to be brief.

There were pictures on the old board of at least two alternators, if you can search my files they may still be there.

I used coils about 6mm thick and the curved magnets were also about 6mm thick but the curvature was wrong so the gap at the centre was wider than ideal.

Briefly to the other question.
 Yes if you have no load matching target the low wind end but expect it to knock your high wind performance by a very large factor just as it does in the axial machines.

Flux

ghurd

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piglet2

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2010, 12:25:21 PM »
Nice pictures, thanks!

/piglet

Ovais

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 01:01:42 PM »
Many thanks Ghurd for posting the pics.

Flux,
Can you share more design details like:
what wire size and number of turns did you use,
what was the fan dia.,
the width & height of the magnets,
any other experiential data.

Thanks,
Ovais

artv

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 07:32:39 PM »
ghurd great links the "Guy2st" pics is this with mag rotor on inside and outside.............inside being smaller mags outside with bigger mags...........the inside rotor would have to be smaller in circumfrence but how would the mags line up for optimum flux linkage??..........artv

ghurd

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2010, 09:32:22 AM »
First, those are pic's from Flux's files.  I just went and found them.

These are old brake drum alternators.
There are no magnets on the inside.  The coils are fastened to the core, and that assembly is stationary (static, stator).
It is the same as a induction motor conversion, but inside out.

Art- Side note- related to your other question-  Notice it is a 3 phase with overlapping coils, and no 'holes' of wasted space.
And notice how the top/bottom(?) of the inner 2 phases coils have to be bent over to conserve space.
Through planning makes it almost a non issue.
G-
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imsmooth

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2010, 10:03:28 AM »
I had specially made neos for an F&P alternator early on.  They were slanted to reduce cogging, and they were curved to fit the curvature of the rotor.

http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/wgpage4.html

You can tab through to see some of the pictures.

Flux

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2010, 10:29:03 AM »
I can't remember all the details of those machines, the big one shown in the first picture was certainly wound with two in hand 1mm wire. I may be able to find the number of turns but it was wound in 2 sections and run with parallel rectifiers to make the winding more manageable. It was wound for nominal 28v for use with a boost converter but works reasonably well in low wind without the boost. At 24v nominal it would be better.

The prop was 10ft tsr about 7.

If I can find the original details  I will let you know but you are unlikely to be able to repeat the magnet rotor as the stocks of voice coil motor magnets ran out  some time ago. I remember right they were something like 60mm long, 35mm wide and 6mm thick but were of a curvature to fit about 4" diameter not the 12" that I used.

Flux

oztules

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 04:24:56 AM »
Some other pics that are pertinent  to this discussion are these:

Coil Shape: (United kingdom)



Good looking stator from Zew Zealand (Thomas Moore)


Thomas again:



Neat work on the stator (United Kingdom)


Some good looking work there from folks from either side of the planet. (not me...... I'm not that neat)


EDIT:
PS.
This forum software is the pits.
 I rarely come here now , it is  just not pleasant browsing the stories having to click on attachments all over the place. The discussion is probably still good, the information probably more so... but the stories and replies end up being  quite disjointed and a chore to interpret.....discussing attachments is different to discussing a picture embedded in the story....... rant over, I'll crawl off quietly now..... hopefully I will warm to it.


..............oztules
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 05:01:05 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

12AX7

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2010, 11:04:35 PM »
Hello Oztules!

Nice looking project there,  any idea how it performs?

ax7
Mark

oztules

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 06:34:21 AM »
Hi Mark,
The one using that drum with the 20 poles does  roughly 1kw@320 rpm 70% efficiency.
I don't have the figures for Thomas's unit.

They are not mine. they are the great work of other people..... not me.


Nice to hear from you again  Mark.



..............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

artv

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 07:41:00 PM »
Hi all ,very nice,..a picture is worth a thousand words....since heating is a major concern ....wouldn't mounting the magnets on the outside of a rotor ,then the coils on the outside of that circumfrence give better cooling and easier to design....or is this just basically a motor conversion??..........artv

Flux

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2010, 03:33:57 AM »
If cooling is your main concern then a motor conversion with coils wound in slots on an external stator has the best cooling, you have fairly direct heat transfer to the teeth and then via the core to the outside world.

For wind application slotted iron cores have some issues that to me at least are more important than cooling. The main one is iron loss drag in low winds, others seem more concerned by cog.

I like the idea of a slotless design with coils in the air gap, this can be built in various ways and the method shown has considerable merit for wind use. The magnets can't fly out of the drum and the large drum makes a very good backing to the blades and it retains the nice bearing arrangement of the axial machines, conventional bearings with shafts as in motor conversions need hubs to mount the blades.

It is much easier to wind coils for a stator with no teeth and fix them on the outside of an iron ring, I have built them with coils on the inside and a magnet rotor on the inside but it is far more tricky.

The cooling is not as good as with the stator on the outside but it is still much better than the air gap axial machine as you have direct contact from the coils to the iron core and then to the core mounting back plate.

If you want the best cooling with this type of construction then it would be better to build it with outer stator and projecting magnets on an inner magnet rotor and put up with all the other associated problems of attaching magnets and having to use a hub.

My own view on the various forms of construction is that the simplest method for home construction is the air gap axial. Those with a fear of windings seem to go for motor conversions but mainly these are people with mechanical skills and experience and have machining facilities.

These are the ones who would also have the skill to build a slotless machine as long as they were prepared to tackle the winding side of the construction.

I think the reason why Hugh went away from the drum design was that it was too mechanically complex for basic home construction anywhere, especially the finding of suitable components without machining is a real challenge.

We see a lot of excellent mechanical work here and this form of construction would be an alternative approach to the axial for many people but for first time construction I still advise copying a proven design.  Hugh's ferrite magnet design is a bit dated and I haven't seen any published details of a drum design that first timers could copy. Even if I could find the details of my drum alternators I don't have time to do the detailed drawings suitable for beginners and most of my machines were not built for direct loading direct to the battery, they use converters so the windings are different.

For those with a bit of experience and machining facilities the radial slotless drum alternator is well worth looking at and I am very surprised that we haven't seen more of it here. If you can't do the calculations for emf then test coils as for the axials would be a sensible starting point. My advice for anyone trying would be to keep the coils no more than 1/4" thick, if you go much more the winding becomes tricky and the heat transfer to the core becomes far less effective.

Flux

Ovais

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2010, 06:24:14 AM »
Hi All,

I feel that the brakedrum design is better than than axial flux design for the following reasons:

1. Much less magnet material is required. The magnet cost is quite low. There in no problem of magnets flying off.
2. Much less copper is required and consequently the copper cost is lower. The heat dissipation is much much better. The coils are better cooled.
3. The alternator is better protected from the elements.

A motor core is all that is required. A brake drum of a car is not necessary. A steel sheet can be rolled to form a drum.

A test coil can be used to adjust the number of turns. Even fine-tuning -to match alternator with blades- can be performed -as is done in axial flux. The drum can be made 2 to 3 mm larger [in diameter] than required and then shims of the size of magnets can be used to adjust the air gap.

Regards,
Ovais

jlt

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2010, 09:24:53 AM »
This is a picture of a radial design that i tried to make  used 30 ferrite mags and cast the stator from iron filings.It did  not work as planned . acted like a eddy  brake  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 09:45:34 AM by jlt »

mbk

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2010, 01:23:45 PM »
    On the way jlt built his brakedrum alternator why couldnt you make the coils in the stator with out iron filings and with out any motor stator metal at all and put another drum inside with out anything on it like  hughs 6 foot axial or dans 7 foot axial have the magnets on the steel wheel then the stator coils then spin the inside blank disk would this still have an eddy brake?
                                                                                                                                           mbk

Flux

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2010, 02:17:38 PM »
I don't follow your description.

You don't need laminated iron if everything rotates. Any stationary iron will have eddy loss unless laminated when the field rotates about it.

The machine as Hugh built it is equivalent to a single rotor axial with laminated fixed magnetic circuit. Other forms of construction are possible.

If you spin a steel drum inside the stator you will be ok but you can no longer fix your coils to the centre and you loose much simplicity and a lot of the excellent cooling. You can go as far as fitting magnets to the outer drum and the inner drum and you have the radial equivalent of the dual rotor, it works well but is not easy to build. It is a bit of a labour of love and most people find it easier to stick to the axial arrangement for the simplicity.

You can always make it the equivalent of a single rotor axial with no flux return path if you want. I really can't see much justification for this on axials except for tiny machines and absolute simplicity, even less can I see why anyone would do it with a radial but it is certainly possible.

For single rotor axials there are issues finding suitable laminated core material and there is a big problem with thrust, these have not caught on but if well engineered with good core material they work ok.

The radial version lets you use a motor core and fit the coils round the outside, not in every way ideal but simple and usually good enough as long as the core is reasonably round and not heavily welded, some core packs are better than others. You have a lot of unnecessary weight and wasted space unless you remove the teeth but if you can get it in the air it doesn't really matter.

I am not entirely convinced about the direct comparison of magnet and copper saved compared with a dual rotor axial if you compare like with like but if you use the extra cooling and run it at low efficiency then yes you do see a gain. You also gain from the better use of the winding space at large radius and it is far easier to use overlapped coils compared with an axial where the inner radius is very cramped and not very effective.

I would not go messing about with iron filings and other non effective cores, all attempts to build single rotor axials this way have not been very successful and I can't see a radial being any better, just stick to high quality readily available motor cores.

Flux

jlt

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2010, 11:13:10 AM »
I really didn't know what i was doing when i built the stator. or how to set up the coils for three phase.was trying to cut slots for the coils.I did some test coils mounted on a wood stator with iron fillings in the center of the coils . i was getting some pretty good output from them. So i thought  the cast stator was a good idea. the stator was stationary . I built this in about 2001 before i joined the discussion. board. and before i had even heard about neodymium mags.I had a book made by Hugh piggot but didn't quite understand it. Then i started reading about axial alternators.So i scrapped it and went on to other projects.Wish now i had saved the parts.with stronger mags i could have made a good air core alt,   

cdog

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Re: Hugh's Brakedrum Alternator with Neodymium Magnets
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »
Would a geared up radial be acceptable with ceramic mags?
The 100hp motor I have has nearly  2' diameter laminates.
I was thinking of huge ceramic mags, and making the drum part adjustable, with each mag sliding on its own mount, making the airgap adjustable.
Any thoughts?
Cdog.