Author Topic: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010  (Read 17826 times)

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isoutar

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Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« on: June 03, 2010, 05:28:10 PM »
Modern Observations about Nickel Iron Batteries

It is well worth while to look at Edison's original pamphlet about nickel iron batteries from 1914.   They are still available from ChangHong battery company in China.   I bought some and have been using them in my house.

I bought 200 amp hours and 22 cells for a voltage of 26.4 volts.   I am calling it 24 volts as far as lights and appliances go.   The house lighting and computers are run from the batteries.    There are 700 watts of solar panels on the roof.

Here is what I have found ...

1/  Maximum Power point controllers work perfectly with nickel iron as long as you program the unit using the following parameters ...

float voltage = 1.45 volts per cell.
equalize voltage = 1.6 volts per cell for 8 hours.

I multiplied these voltages by the number of cells to get the charger voltage.

2/ The charge does leak slowly away but it will take about 4 months with no charge for this to become an issue.  

I have some in the next door lab that were fully charged (10 amp hour small cells) in late april.   I am just about to walk in the next room and measure the cells (June 20th) ... 1.35 volts of charge / cell is left.   They have still not reached their nominal voltage of 1.2 volts.    For solar and wind applications this is a non issue since there is daily charging.

3/ At home the garden shed houses 22 200 amp hour cells.   To condition these for initial use I followed Edison's pamphlet from1914.   I charged them up fully.   Then I discharged them through a 100 watt light until it glowed only as bright as a candle.   Then I overcharged them hard without using a controller for 2 days ... they bubbled like crazy and a tiny amount of water (20 millilitres) needed to be added to each cell.    I then did a discharge test and they were holding about 250 amp hours.   If you did one of these tests to a lead acid battery it would be ruined.

Conclusions:
I have found that Edison's pamphlet from 1914 is as perfect a maintenance schedule as possible.   Every 20 years you change the electrolyte.   Check for water once a month.   I have met someone who used the h2 recombining caps for the batteries to avoid having to top them up.   This works but the caps wear out in 2 years.   I am not going to bother worrying about automating the filling of the batteries but in Edison's pamphlet he used an automatic watering system.

These batteries appear to be really tough and they have taken a lot of abuse from me.

Ian Soutar



« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 08:01:27 AM by ghurd »

joe4324

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2010, 02:10:00 PM »
Thanks for the info,  Can you tell me everything else you know about them?   I have been waiting to purchase 200-250amp hours @48V give or take to power my off-grid homestead.   It still maybe sometime before i can afford them as it sounds like its going to cost me $8,000 to get that much battery storage.   I've been inhaling all the info I can on these batteries and what are you saying definitely conflicts with the 40-50% discharge per month people say they have.  I've heard they have a 5% daily discharge. Wowzers!

What else can you tell me about them?  I'm really curious!

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2010, 02:47:28 PM »
I found a copy of a Edison battery booklet here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html

Scroll down a little once you go to that page and you will find it.

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 02:29:20 PM »
It is a bit disturbing to see the references to self discharge ... which are not observed by actual users as being significant.   It also should be noted that the lead acid battery companies drove nickel iron out of NA.    In 1972 the Exide Battery Company bought the Edison Storage Battery Company that had made nickel iron batteries for over 65 years.    Nickel Iron battery manufacturing was immediately discontinued and closed down by 1975.   That is why none of us have heard about it.

The University of Michigan is doing research on a simple technology to allow nickel iron batteries to be manufactured in less developed countries.   A blacksmith with some nickel and iron in collaboration with a few other craftspeople can make them.   The University is establishing a simple manufacturing method so these countries can make their own batteries.  The non toxic nature of the batteries is what attracted the University of Michigan.

I think the important thing about nickel iron that attracted me and my wife Barbara to use them in our house is the benign chemistry.    The potassium hydroxide can be recycled to farmers for neutralizing acid soil contitions and can be sprayed on the soil after dilution.   The nickel and iron can be melted down for scrap metal.    There is no heavy metal pollution.

I am happy with mine and it feels so good to have escaped from the lead acid battery syndrome ... in fact I would not have built a solar home if I had to use lead acid.

There are pictures of my installation I can send if anyone emails me.

Ian Soutar

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 02:48:43 PM »
I have been selling nickel iron batteries to people mainly in order to promote this green storage solution.    But for those who want to import their own, I import mine from ChangHong Batteries in China.   They are cusom manufactured upon the receipt of an order.    To get our 200 amp hour batteries (22 of them) it cost $3200 with taxes and transportation.

That gives you an idea of cost.   It seems from my website that I am a dealer but I am much happier if people import their own right from China.   My goal was not so much for business but just to get them out there before the manufacturing process is lost.   The Chinese do not sell many Ni-Fe batteries but they are starting to market them specifically for solar and wind storage.

Here is the web page in China ... http://changhongzhou.en.ec21.com/

If anyone wants to set up an importing business to help the solar / wind industry acquire Ni-Fe batteries this is the company to look to.    It took me over a year to track down a good supplier.   It was scary to simply send $3000 to China and hope for the best.   Their batteries were high quality, shipped with the dry electrolyte and rubber vest to protect your clothes while charging.   They sent a multimeter and hydrometer plus the metal plates to interconnect the cells.    Very professionally shipped in wooden cartons.

I recommend contacting them and looking for a representative close to you to help establish contact.

A few more technical details ...

When mixing the Potassium Hydroxide be VERY careful to add KOH to water ... you cannot ever do it the other way around or it explodes into caustic steam.

I am happy to help out in any way to get the solar / wind industries to use nickel iron instead of the usual toxic batteries that are widely used for supposedly green energy.    My strong feeling is that Lead Acid battery use should be discontinued if solar / wind are going to benefit the planet.

If anyone has difficulty establishing contact with ChangHong ... the language issue can be difficult ... I can supply a recommended contact who speaks English well.   

Ian Soutar

TomW

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 02:58:39 PM »
I smell canned Spiced Ham

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 03:14:46 PM »
Me too.

But, just to make sure what he is saying:

Quote
200 amp hours and 22 cells for a voltage of 26.4 volts.   I am calling it 24 volts as far as lights and appliances go
and
Quote
  To get our 200 amp hour batteries (22 of them) it cost $3200

So 200 amp hours of storage @ 24V costs $3,200.00
A typical golf cart equivalent (4 6V batteries) with similar amp hours would cost about $320 dollars (more or less).

So how does this make financial sense?

Bruce S

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 04:04:24 PM »
Me too.

But, just to make sure what he is saying:

Quote
200 amp hours and 22 cells for a voltage of 26.4 volts.   I am calling it 24 volts as far as lights and appliances go
and
Quote
  To get our 200 amp hour batteries (22 of them) it cost $3200

So 200 amp hours of storage @ 24V costs $3,200.00
A typical golf cart equivalent (4 6V batteries) with similar amp hours would cost about $320 dollars (more or less).

So how does this make financial sense?

It is a bit steep for my blood, but I think his push here is the environment, the lead is a big yuck-O where as Nickel and Iron can less or a mess.
That KOH I can understand since it's one of the items I've tried/used in making Bio-D. Nasty if mishandled but easily dealt with .

I'll stay with recycling NiCds for my money for now, go off grid might change my mind, but not real soon.

Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

independent

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 05:38:58 PM »
Me too.

But, just to make sure what he is saying:

Quote
200 amp hours and 22 cells for a voltage of 26.4 volts.   I am calling it 24 volts as far as lights and appliances go
and
Quote
  To get our 200 amp hour batteries (22 of them) it cost $3200

So 200 amp hours of storage @ 24V costs $3,200.00
A typical golf cart equivalent (4 6V batteries) with similar amp hours would cost about $320 dollars (more or less).

So how does this make financial sense?


The difference is with a Pb-A battery at 50% discharge (higher than what is really recommended) you are only getting 110Ah. With less discharge you are obviously getting much less. With NiFe battery all of that capacity is available. And the lifetime of the battery is much longer. There are cons too, higher voltage swings, not as much instantaneous current available. Horses for courses.
The other difference is in other places around the world (not counting the US), Pb-A has risen significantly, double or triple what you are quoting

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 06:13:32 PM »
I am intrigued by being able to drain it until it's dead and not harming it.  I would love to have a few to play with...if they were cheap.

If you have to buy 2x as many lead acid batteries (~$640.00), a good point BTW, and paid 3x as much for them ($1920.00) you might be starting to get close enough to take a look at NiFe batteries.

But I can still get lead acid batteries at 1/5 the price.  So the NiFe would have to last decades longer in order to be financially attractive.  Even then, that is a LONG time to wait for a ROI.  By that time my needs will probably have changed significantly.

I'm sure the "green" aspects of NiFe will appeal to some, but it doesn't factor into my personal equation.

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 07:00:08 PM »
Ian back again ... from the original post.

I did not mean to suggest that it makes economic sense ... if you are willing to support the lead battery economy.   

I did not make the choice for my family power system based on cost ... I chose the most environmentally friendly solution and cost was not a factor at all.   For people willing to put in solar, which in most cases does not make economic sense, it makes sense to most of us to go "all the way" and make sure that no pollution will result from our system.

Many of us feel that keeping heavy metals out of household living makes a lot of sense.  Plumbers these days keep lead solder out of our water.   It is a similar move to use a non heavy metal battery.    One reason for the high price of NiFe batteries is that not enough people are buying them.   The price will only go down if people start using them.

Ian

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 07:41:34 PM »
I did not make the choice for my family power system based on cost ... I chose the most environmentally friendly solution and cost was not a factor at all.   For people willing to put in solar, which in most cases does not make economic sense, it makes sense to most of us to go "all the way" and make sure that no pollution will result from our system.

So do you opt for incandescent light bulbs rather than florescent in order to use less mercury?



I'm just messing with you.  :)

If cost is not a factor for you, that's great!  Congratulations, you must be doing very well.

But to say that solar power, in most cases, does not make economic sense, seems like a stretch to me.


independent

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 07:58:49 PM »
There are some real advantages to both systems IMO. The Nickel Iron battery is so long lasting you can just do the water top ups and almost forget--it's a real bonus. However, i've found people are so lead acid centric there is a lot of misinformation out there like people trying to pull 3C out of NiFe battery and failing and calling it rubbish.
Regarding the greenness advantage to NiFe, there might be some truth to that however, from what i've read, the Pb-A battery is almost 100% recyclable so I guess it's a moot point.
Esc, you meant $920 not $1920--right?

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 08:34:26 PM »
In my family's solar backed house, all lights are going to be DC LED lights.   They have just become available.  Our house is a bit different from many because we have opted for DC only power.   It is because I am a ham radio guy and the inverters put out truely terrible noise (even so called sine wave ones).  So the house lighting will be 24 volt lighting that is selected for the range of my batteries.   There will be one inverter that is only used during power failures.

LED lighting uses only 1/10th the energy of incandescent.   We will not touch compact fluorescent ... just like you say because of the mercury.   The compact fluorescent was a very bad choice for the environment.   A very bad move on the part of legislators when LED lighting was about to appear.

There are LED options now that are super long lasting ... like the batteries.  50,000 hour life or more ... that is an amazing 5 years of continous lighting.   At that point most LED lights still work but are 50% dimmer.   If you only leave them on for 8 hours each day that becomes 15 years or more.  They are tough too and can withstand shocks both thermal and vibration.  Sure beats compact fluorescents in every way.

The commercial LED lights that are equivalent to a 50 watt incandescent draw 5 watts.   I have worked in the solar industry, both solar thermal and solar voltaic off and on for about 30 years.   This long association gives you time to look for options.   I have been looking for ways to get around lead acid for 40 years ... always disliked products using heavy metals.

About 4% of lead acid batteries never make it to recycling.   They can cause heavy metal poisoning of rivers and lakes where they are sometimes discarded.   

I am not rich in any way ... but I will spend more money gladly in order to support an environmentally friendly solution.    I do not own a car and use bicycles for everything.   My family pressured me to move in this direction.   I do not own a TV either.    With all these major expenses eliminated it is very easy to justify spending $3K on batteries and $3k on panels.

The little money I have is spent preferably on things that do not wear out or go out of style.   LED lights, solar panels, NiFe batteries and solar thermal technologies are all long lasting technologies.

Ian Soutar

joe4324

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 09:08:22 PM »
It all seems pretty innocent to me,  I am strongly considering NiFe batteries for my off-grid homestead.   I completely agree the ROI is a long shot,  what 20-30 years before pay-off at best?  

I feel that the golf-cart battery comparison isn't entirely fair.    I'm looking at getting about 200ah @  48V  or around 10Kwh of storage.   On a avg day I expect to use 2 kwh, on a heavy day 3-4.   I feel lucky that i have a good back up source (waste oil generator) so I don't mind cutting it close on storage.  It just encourages me to use less.  Or go start the genny in the snow.  If I bought a lead acid bank I'd need to get more than 10kw,  I really would want them to last and I'd shoot for a 30% DOD max.  Sure you can get 5 banks of sam's club golf cart batteries for the same price but I don't like the idea of rebuilding my battery bank 5 times.  If you bought some good batteries say Trojan or better, and sized the system for 30% DOD vs say 80% DOD for NiFe  I think the insane looking premium of the NiFe's looks much less insane.  

Cost is a big factor but buying them once for basically 'ever' and not having to baby sit them like a constantly hungry infant is definitely worth something to me.  I guess my biggest fear of spending $9k on Nife's would be locking myself out of a future technology.  On the flip side I'm sitting here with a 70 year old generator, a 30 year old car and wanting batteries first made over a hundred years ago so who I am kidding...?

I feel like I see both sides pretty clearly,  I'm leaning towards NiFe if I can get the money.   If i get lucky maybe I can score some industrial cells second hand or some 2V cell station batts or something as a NiFe alternative.

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2010, 09:13:53 PM »
Esc, you meant $920 not $1920--right?

$320 x 2 (to get a useable 200 amp hours @ 50% drain vs NiFe 100% drain, if that is truly possible)=$640
$640 x 3 (for the supposed higher prices in other places, of which I have no personal knowledge) = $1920

Lead is poisonous, but as long as you don't take the batteries apart and use the lead plates as dishes for your children, there is no REAL danger.
If improper disposal is your beef, then your time may be better spent trying to get the lead recycling message out than trying to convince people to swear off lead.  It would probably have a larger impact.

LEDs are good, but they are, IMO, not quite ready for use as a primary lighting source.

If you are saying:
Quote
The little money I have is spent preferably on things that do not wear out or go out of style

I can agree with that 100%.

But I'm still not ready to jump on the NiFe band wagon.

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2010, 10:06:33 PM »
Now if someone came up with instructions and component sources to build your own NiFe batteries...

That is a band wagon I might jump on.

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »
A quick question ... what does ROI mean?

Ian

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2010, 10:53:48 PM »
Return On Investment

a1000

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 02:30:24 AM »
Esc,

This topic looked interesting, so I Googled around and found some various sites that provided information on these batteries.

This link provides numerous documents and manuals on the batteries.  Some of them are available as PDF downloads from Google Books.

  http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2570.msg423881.html#msg423881

The next link is to another forum that talks about building or wanting to build these batteries [NiFE]. Might be useful, might not be. It offers a link to Fieldlines.com [some strange site?] for additional research.

  http://www.electro-tech-online.com/renewable-energy/100471-building-good-working-capacity-ni-fe-battery.html

This next link is an actual DIY NiFe battery. It's actually a University Of Michigan project. I could not locate the actual project at MSU, likely buried under some other engineering project there.

"The engineers working on our NiFe Battery are a Capstone Engineering design team from Michigan State University.  The team has made several prototypes and is making up a “cook book” on how to make your own batteries." 

  http://sustainabledesignupdate.com/?tag=nife

Also this link, which points you to a Yahoo group  [url is below the main one here, requires login] for downloads on details of NiFe.

  http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/2009/02/11/brainstorming-battery-technology-and-human-power/

"We were discussing home  built NiFe (Edison) batteries and how to make your own. These batteries have the ability to last 50+ years, and we have a bunch of info on them in the files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12VDC_Power/files/. "

Hopefully helpful, I'd be interesting in seeing if it's possible to make some DIY NiFe's.

Andy




isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 12:33:00 PM »
Modern Research on NiFe

I am trying to encourage research on NiFe batteries.    So far the University of Michigan is doing research on manufacturing techniques for NiFe.   

http://sustainabledesignupdate.com/?tag=nickel-iron-battery

There is a university in Brazil doing research ... which I have not been able to track down.

Dr. Robert O'Brien of the University of Victoria is doing research on a magnetic technique to increase the lifespan of NiFe batteries and increase their current output.   I am working with him.

I am also doing research on Nickel Iron battery charging using MPPT (maximum power point) type controllers.

Are there any other researchers or others with real practical experience that they can share?

Ian

esc

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2010, 12:55:43 PM »
I found all the references listed with a quick Google search a couple of days ago when I was first looking for the "Edison pamphlet."

None that I looked at gave any usable detail, just quick blurbs to let you know that someone is thinking about doing something.  There doesn't seem to be any "meat" available, only fluff.

If any significant research is going on, those doing it are being relatively quiet about it.

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2010, 05:39:56 PM »
There are only a few researchers that I have been able to find concerning NiFe battery work.    I would like to find out what others are doing.

One NiFe Battery research project is at the university of Michigan

http://sustainabledesignupdate.com/?tag=nickel-iron-battery

Very interesting ... they are developing low tech methods to manufacture nickel iron batteries for third world countries.

There is a researcher in Brazil ... do not know what university ...

I am doing research at the University of Victoria with Dr. Robert O'Brien concerning applying a magnetic technique that improves the charge holding capability while improving the lifespan still further. 

Are there any other researchers out there working with NiFe batteries?

Thanks
Ian Soutar

joe4324

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2010, 10:30:46 PM »
I read somewhere a while back (years) that some people thought that you could charge NiFe's just as effectively with straight Panel current with no charge controller.   Even supposedly performing *almost* as good as using a MPPT, but only with no controller at all.     If there was some confirmation here it could subsidize 10-15% of the battery bank cost.   But its a big IF

Also,  they accept a charge and give a charge more slowly,  my question is how much more slowly.  If I needed to get 2.5Kw draw for 20 seconds (say washing machine motor start plus microwave) or something,  will they crap out trying to provide that if you had a 10kwh bank?  Is there some way we can figure this out?   If I find that I have to over size the bank just to insure I don't 'run out' of current so to speak thats a big deal.

independent

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 11:08:58 PM »
Yes you can run controllerless. If a mppt is able to clamp a 12v bank to under the 15.3v inverter limit, i can see a real advantage there. People run 19 cells for 24v for that reason. On the other hand i ran a 12/24v fridge and because of the high daytime voltage, drew 3/4 of the amps required when not have a charge going into cells (16v when charging). Advantage is the time the fridge most wanted cooling was the time i had the highest volts.
120A from a 400Ah 24v battery is fine. Voltage will definately dip though.
Yes 100% is very doable

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2010, 01:09:10 AM »
Hey guys ... Ian Soutar back ... sorry for the double posting of the information above.   I thought it did not register.  Please delete my duplicate message above.

I have tried running my 200 amp hour nickel iron cells directly from the solar panels ... in fact that is why I am using 22 of them.   The equalization charge requires 36.3 volts, and the panels can only supply 40 volts if they are in parallel.   So it was safe to just "let it rip" and I overcharged them for 1 week when I first got them.   They bubbled and bubbled ... enough to destroy a lead acid battery.   Then I deep discharged them until a lamp glowed like a candle.   Then charged them up again for a week of overcharge.

I can verify that you do not need a controller ... however there is a big disadvantage to doing this ... the water level goes down and you have to add a 10 or 20 milliliters each week to each cell.

I repeated with a MPPT controller (Outback mx60 I think is the model).    I have 4 175 watt panels that put out slightly more than 40 volts each.   I wired sets of two in series and the whole thing in parallel.   This resulted in about 85 volts of charge at 9 amps potential.  It charged on a cloudy day ... something that direct connecting would not do.   The other big advantage was that no water was needed after the charge.   The MPPT power supply throttled things down as the target voltage was reached.

It is fine to use lead acid batteries if you are careful.      I would not have even built my solar system if I could not find non toxic battery solutions.   So I am delighted with the NiFe storage.

There are other battery chemistry possibilities of the past to look at.    In 1892 at the Chicago Worlds Fair there were 50 36 foot long electric tour boats.   They were charged over night and carried passengers all day.   Over 2 years they carried over 1 million tourists and made a profit of $300k ,,, equivalent to 10s of millions today.    What was the battery chemistry???   I read once that it was a potassium maganese battery!   But I never found the reference again.    Does anyone know how that battery worked?

One final note about nickel iron batteries as manufactured by ChangHong Batteries in China.    I would post their catalog but I am not sure how.   They went beyond Edison and have three grades of nickel iron.    Mine is the traditional slow discharge model.   They also offer a medium and high discharge rate one.    The high discharge rate one is used to start train locomotives in China.   The medium one is used for forklifts and heavy motors.   They recommended the slow discharge rate one when I said I would be using DC only lights and computers.   They also advised me that it has the longest lifespan.    They rated that battery at a maximum of 2000 charge / discharge cycles.   However Edison states in his 1914 pamphlet that when the battery dies ... you wash it out and change the electrolyte.   Otherwise you change it every decade or two.     I saw above that someone found it.    It has been my only reliable guide to operation.   The Chinese manual was missing the details.

Our research which is just starting at the University of Victoria will see if modern battery techniques such as magnetodynamic agitation will allow a faster discharge even in the slow discharge rate one.   

My feeling is that the NiFe is mainly good for stationary applications because of its size.   It can also be used for boats ... and I think I will rebuild my solar cabin boat next summer with medium discharge rate ones.  Currently this boat is a lead acid one.

Ian

jlt

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 01:30:15 AM »
here are some of the edison batts that i have. they were made in the thirty s . and they still work.they came out of railroad signal shacks.I had  a pu load given to me.they were 2700lbs.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 09:23:21 PM by kurt »

isoutar

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 05:28:35 PM »
Wow ... what a great set of Edison batteries.   I would have much preferred to get the 1930s models.    Generally if you wash them and add new electrolyte they may still be running fine in 2030.    Wish I had found some of those ... their cases are much preferred over the modern design of cases.

Ian Soutar

PeterDe

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2010, 03:37:22 PM »
here are some of the edison batts that i have. they were made in the thirty s . and they still work.they came out of railroad signal shacks.I had  a pu load given to me.they were 2700lbs.
(Attachment Link)

PeterDe

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2010, 10:06:33 AM »
Somehow what I quoted is not what I meant to say.  I meant to state that the Edison cells that I am experimenting with are the same style, although there were only two of the wooden cases and each wooden case held two of the A8H cells.  Altogether we have about 80 individual cells.  The consist of the A8, the A8H, and the A4H models.  Per Edison manual the A8 and A8H are 300AH at the 5 hour rate, and the A4H is 150 AH at the 5 hour rate.  Many of the cells sat off charge for many years.  Some of the cells were at 0.000 volts, with the majority of them below 0.321 of a volt.  However some were at 1.365 volts. 

We have performed initial charging on three strings, that we assembled from the three sizes.  12 cells of the A8 and A8H cells and 18 of the A4H cells.  Before we did any charging we added water so that the electrolyte level was at least above the plates, and then tried to run a 10 amp load followed by a 60 amp load on groups of 2 cells in series.  The reason for this particular procedure is due to the losd bank that was available that day.  We then series them into the present configuration and gave them a boost charge at 1.65 VPC for 4 days followed by float charge at 1.45 VPC.  With that initial load test there were a total of four groups of cells that would sustain the 10 amp load for 10 minutes then the 60 amp load for any amount of time.  The best group of 2 cells maintained a total voltage of 1.000 volts (0.5 of a volt per cell) for 30 minutes.  The follow up load test on the A8H cells showed an improvement. 

Yes I realize that this is pathetic, but not really for cells manufactured between 1925 and 1930 per the Edison date codes, and that had sat off charge for who knows how long. 

Bruce S

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Re: Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2010, 10:16:05 AM »

Somehow what I quoted is not what I meant to say.  I meant to state that the Edison cells that I am experimenting with are the same style, although there were only two of the wooden cases and each wooden case held two of the A8H cells.  Altogether we have about 80 individual cells.  The consist of the A8, the A8H, and the A4H models.  Per Edison manual the A8 and A8H are 300AH at the 5 hour rate, and the A4H is 150 AH at the 5 hour rate.  Many of the cells sat off charge for many years.  Some of the cells were at 0.000 volts, with the majority of them below 0.321 of a volt.  However some were at 1.365 volts. 

We have performed initial charging on three strings, that we assembled from the three sizes.  12 cells of the A8 and A8H cells and 18 of the A4H cells.  Before we did any charging we added water so that the electrolyte level was at least above the plates, and then tried to run a 10 amp load followed by a 60 amp load on groups of 2 cells in series.  The reason for this particular procedure is due to the losd bank that was available that day.  We then series them into the present configuration and gave them a boost charge at 1.65 VPC for 4 days followed by float charge at 1.45 VPC.  With that initial load test there were a total of four groups of cells that would sustain the 10 amp load for 10 minutes then the 60 amp load for any amount of time.  The best group of 2 cells maintained a total voltage of 1.000 volts (0.5 of a volt per cell) for 30 minutes.  The follow up load test on the A8H cells showed an improvement. 

Yes I realize that this is pathetic, but not really for cells manufactured between 1925 and 1930 per the Edison date codes, and that had sat off charge for who knows how long. 
PeteDE, Are you having problem posting after the quotes? This is the 2nd one you've done. Please let us know if you're having problems with adding your comments AFTER the quotes, otherwise the quotes your doing may be removed.

Bruce S
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 06:17:44 PM by kurt »
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isoutar

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Modern Operation Manual ... Nickel Iron Battery Parameters ... Research 2010
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2010, 09:50:51 PM »
Here is a modern operations manual for new nickel iron batteries from ChangHong.

http://microsec.net/Maintenance%20Manual%20of%20Nickel%20Iron%20battery-v12a.pdf

Can someone please let me know how to post the link without all the webpage stuff.

Thanks
Ian
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 09:53:37 PM by isoutar »