Solar Village Power in China using Nickel Iron Battery system.

[isoutar]

Hi Everyone

The nickel iron battery association website has a bunch of new pictures of a Chinese solar village power supply being installed.  Nickel iron batteries are always used in these projects in China since replacement of batteries is very likely unnecessary for 20 to 40 years.   The transportation of the batteries is the big cost and to replace them would be a repeat of that cost a number of times during the life of the solar panels.   These batteries will probably have the same lifespan as the solar panels, even if they are discharged right to zero volts hundreds of times during their lifetime.

Delivery is by river boat and horses / donkeys.

Ian Soutar

[dnix71]

I'm a Linux/mac guy. You won me over with the GPL3 license on NiFe battery ideas. At first I thought you posted here because you had something to sell.

I'll give you my take on the sealed NiFe battery. Go semi sealed. You have to add water at some point if you intend to keep a battery that long, but you need to keep air out because the CO2 in the air neutralizes the lye electrolyte.

Automobile radiators are semi sealed for a similar reason. You must add replacement antifreeze mix from time to time but air in the system causes corrosion.

A pressure relief valve on the battery connected to a sealed but refillable electrolyte overflow "bottle" would allow for expansion and recovery of electrolyte but minimize contact with air.
The hydrogen recombiner would go on a pressure relief vavle on the overflow bottle. Water would be added to the overflow bottle as needed.

[isoutar]

Good ideas about how to lower the maintenance.   The East Indian researchers have come up with a good sealed version but I agree ... flooded is better for lasting longer than 20 years.   Changhong is the battery company.   

They now offer a new solar version with large reservoirs for extra electrolyte.   As a result they only need to be topped up twice a year.    That is not a bad maintenance schedule.   The ones in the picture are their new NS series for solar applications.

Ian

[rossw]

I was   --><-- far from buying a NiFe bank last year to replace my tired AGM SLAs.
The deal-breaker for me was that in order to get enough volts to stay above my inverters minimum input (about 44V), I could never charge the NiFe cells without going over my inverters MAXIMUM input voltage (about 60V).

At the time, I checked for alternate inverters and none that would do my job had the wide input range required. Hopefully that'll change if it hasn't already. Perhaps next battery change things will be ready - in a decade from now, because I know of several others who faced the same dielema.

[isoutar]

You generally cannot use inverters meant for lead acid on nickel iron systems.   The proper equipment is out there and below is the one I would recommend.


Yes ... i can see that problem happening.   KiPoint in Taiwan makes very good inveters ... pure sine wave ones too.  They will make custom inverters that have unusual swings of input voltage.    For mine they can supply one that works from 20 volts to 37 volts so that I can exploit the NiFe batteries to their limit.   I do not use AC however in my system so I have no need.

The KiPoint contact is on ebay and they have made us custom inverters for several years now that handle even bigger input voltage ranges that are necessary for using hydrogen fuel cells.   I have one such unit that powers my solar electric boat.   Their equipment is very high quality and is very inexpensive.  For example a 3000 watt AC inverter that is pure sine wave is 800 dollars or so.   Here in Victoria I would pay 2K for such a unit.   Shipping is about 100 dollars.

Ian

[rossw]

You generally cannot use inverters meant for lead acid on nickel iron systems.

Yes, thats my point. That "upgrading" from lead-acid becomes a substantially more complex and costly issue if you have to replace inverters and charge controllers and goodness knows what else.

KiPoint in Taiwan makes very good inveters ... pure sine wave ones too.

They don't appear to be UL listed although they claim CE (but no details).
I wouldn't consider ANYTHING not pure sine to be "very good", so to say "very good - and even make sine wave ones to" leaves me nonplussed.

 They will make custom inverters that have unusual swings of input voltage.

The ones I could see in the "nominal 48V" range state 42 to 62 - barely different the the one I have already.

I do not use AC however in my system so I have no need.

Some of us have offices, workshops and "modern homes with wives and children who expect/demand 240V" for who thats not an option

and is very inexpensive.  For example a 3000 watt AC inverter that is pure sine wave is 800 dollars or so.   Here in Victoria I would pay 2K for such a unit.   Shipping is about 100 dollars.

You must be living in a different and parrallel universe to me then. The first 48V one I found of theirs that wasn't too small (ie, must be at least 5KW)  is $2,599 plus $550 shipping!

That's not a "special, made for extended input" version, it's also only suitable for batteries up to 600AH with its internal charger, can only charge batteries up to max 50 amps at maxmimum 55V from the solar side, isn't generator interactive, doesn't appear to have logging and a host of other deal-breaking limitations.

Like I said, there are some *problems* with NiFe - I'd really like to have been able to go that way (I have around 72 kWh battery "investment" that would have been NiFe if there had been an approved, affordable, SUITABLE inverter.... but there wasn't.

[dnix71]

I visited other NiFe battery sites and saw recommended charging voltages as high as 1.8 per cell. That's is a very serious issue, never mind if you can find inverters to handle that.

My loads are all "12v" nominal. 18v on those appliances would fry them. I would have to buy a dc/dc buck converter large enough for my loads to keep the voltage within limits while the batteries were being charged. OR I would have to have two battery banks and a transfer switch. Charge one at a high voltage and use the other, then flip. Even after I flipped the switch I would still have to be careful that the battery voltage had come down to a safe level before my appliances were connected.

Since NiFe already cost more to buy, that changes the economics if I have to buy twice as many or special electronics to protect my loads from the batteries. The 1.2v nominal per cell also complicates running dc appliances. 12v is borderline low on a lead battery. A voltage that low will lead to higher current draws and NiFe is not ideal for high current apps. An 11 cell stack at 13.2 volts would be much better for running 12v nominal appliances but that would make the full charge voltage 19.8 which again is way way too high for a nominal 12v system.

NiCad and NiMH have much smaller voltage swings between full and empty, similar to lead acid.

[DamonHD]

Even my LiFePO4 battery is a bit marginal for 'normal' 12V electronics as it swings up to close to 16V when getting a final topping up:



so I only use it as input for my server DC-DC converter which will be happy with ~25V on its input.

Rgds

Damon

[isoutar]

I guess relatively few that have commented have engineered energy systems.  When doing a design you work with the materials at hand.  One starts a nickel iron solar design using the characteristics of the panel and batteries.

First of all these systems are being built all over China.  NiFe cells are usually 400% more expensive than lead acid because nickel is 10 times more expensive than lead.

The Chinese are using them for their long life which renders them cheaper over time and prevents lead pollution in China.  Solar is stressful on a lead acid system and the lead batteries will have to be replaced many times often at great transportation and disposal costs.  Over the same period of decades only one NiFe battery is needed.

The nickel iron system is always up and running.  This is why they are using them in remote villages.

I am using them in my house for DC power and we just passed through december 21st with full power still.  The system works well and I am glad to have escaped having to use lead batteries.

Peter DeMar of this discussion group is a member of the ieee battery group.  He has successfully rejuvenated cells from the 1930s and has forwarded documentation to the ieee to establish an IEEE standard in early 2011.  This will open the way for USA government funded projects to use them. Peter will be giving us a scientific report in the forum soon.
 
Not sure why there is any opposition to such an environmentally conservative technology?  

It is a historic and well known technology predating 1900.  Our Canadian cross country trains used Nickel Iron batteries from 1920 to 1970 when a major lead acid battery manufacturer took them out of production.   Yet later it was reported that they were poor in low temperatures.   Everyone knows the story who has followed the history of Edison.   

This is a truely historic battery design that has suddenly captured the interest of modern battery designers.   A group in India has been making sealed NiFe batteries since 2005.   There will be a report issued shortly by the Indian researchers outlining the use of them for remote power.   The advantage is higher power density and easy of maintenance.   No hydrogen escapes from them.    These would not be expected to last as long as flooded cells.

Chinese research has recently been focused on adding catalytic caps for their NiFe flooded cells.   This would allow a very very long life by protecting the electrolyte (KOH) from neutralization by carbonic acid (CO2 plus water).   CO2 from ourselves and other animals degrades NiFe battery electrolyte.   A means of protecting the electrolyte from CO2 contamination was proposed by Edison in 1910. 

Normally one simply replaces the KOH with a fresh solution every 10-15  years.   In Edisons time the spent electrolyte would be given to farmers to neutralize acid soils and to clean barn floors.   The electrolyte has traces of iron and nickel but neither are very soluble in KOH solution so you do not lose electrode chemistry.

That is about as much as I know of them.   They have worked in our house.

Ian

[dnix71]

If you run an inverter based system, the differences are not that big of a deal. If you have a small system that uses common automobile 12v dc appliances then it is a problem.

If you have a remote village with lots of money and a willingness to share resources then NiFe should work well. But what you have isn't portable. What I have is. My batteries are small and my loads light on purpose. On what you can collect from the sun you cannot live like your are grid-tied. I have a coworker with a 5.5KW grid-tied system and she still cannot run the a/c from solar. She and her husband can't take it with them either, and it will take 25 years to pay off.

If you have a major flood or earthquake and need to move quickly, you will have to abandon your substantial investment. What I have will fit in a small van towing a small trailer.

I don't like the environmental impact of improperly discarded/recycled lead, either. But real Green Living means using less, not just substituting one form of power for another and continuing to be wasteful. I don't need a house full of batteries to live well off-grid.

Make a NiFe battery that will fit in and start my van and we can talk right now.  Much of the world's culture depends on personal transportation. If I can buy something that does double duty on the road and at home then that is worth investing in.

[isoutar]

Such nickel iron batteries were made by Eagle Picher in 1970 ... they used cells made by the Edison Storage Battery Company in New Jersiey.   They used to advertise that this is the battery that will run all the cars you own in your lifetime.    I have a copy of the original ad from 1970.   Exide immediately bought the Edison Storage Battery Company and made NiFe cells go out of production by 1975.   That was the end of the 6 and 12 volt NiFe batteries for cars.

One of the things that I like about NiFe batteries is their portability.   Should a crisis arrive you can drain their electrolyte and neutralize it.   The batteries become much lighter and you can ship them with dry electrolyte at low cost to a new location.   Lead acid on the other hand needs to be shipped with sulphuric acid which cannot be reduced in weight like KOH dry powder.   With NiFe only distilled water needs to exist at the final location to make the KOH solution according to the required operating temperature.   Temperatures as low as minus 30C to plus 46C can be accomodated by changing the concentration of KOH.   The addition of LiOH or Lithium Hydroxide can be added to improve efficiency and reduce the production of hydrogen.
 

Ian

[isoutar]

Those dedicated to lead acid batteries can use them.   Those dedicated to NiFe batteries can use those.   LiFe Phosphate is another choice.   It is a free choice and no one is insisting that only one solution be used.  Relax and accept many solutions to renewable energy issues.

Ian

[rossw]

I guess relatively few that have commented have engineered energy systems.

I designed and engineered my system from the ground up. House, hydronics, electrical (including full home automation) etc etc.

When doing a design you work with the materials at hand.

At hand, and/or available to you.

One starts a nickel iron solar design using the characteristics of the panel and batteries.

If one were starting from scratch, sure. And if one were using all new components, sure. But if one is being frugal (or forced into the position of not spending the money for all new stuff) then one uses what one can get. Lead-acid technology batteries are plentiful and (until recently at least) were readily available at low cost when they were being swapped out of telco and similar installations.

Everything else you said about them - environmental benefits, long life, tollerance of under and over charge/discharge etc are all worthy points, but my point is - having an existing system and *WANTING* to migrate to NiFe cells (for all the reasons already given) is simply not practical.

On the purely environmental side - at least by taking these cells when I did, saved 2 ton of batteries going in landfill somewhere.... (at least for a while!)

[bob g]

lead acid batteries being dumped in a landfill is pretty much a thing of the past.

today there are all sorts of incentives to keep them recycled, to the point that lead acid batteries
are the most recycled waste product we have in the US.

with the scroungers around cutting out copper, believe you me they will not allow a battery to sit around
unguarded either, poof it is gone to the recycler.

even those that end up in dumpsters, in larger cities at least, end up on a huge covered concrete floor, where the 
compactor trucks dump the refuse, and a high loader moves the stuff about to take out to the landfill, there are guys
there on the lookout for batteries as they are not only horrible for our ground water, but they have a significant value
which the landfill folks understand very well.

this doesn't mean some don't slip through, but it is said that well over 95% of all lead acid batteries are completely recycled,
every last bit of the battery is recycled, from the plastic case to the lead plates, it all gets recycled.

i know this is a side note, but thought it might be pertinent to the discussion.

it just seems very unlikely to me that any RE battery system will end up in a landfill, the core return is large enough to
make then very desirable from an economic standpoint, if you got to load them to go to a landfill, you might as well drop them
at a recycler and get paid for the labor.

as for iron batteries, at 4x the cost of lead acid, and because of the rather large installed base of lead acid powered equipment, it is doubtful that they will every get a significant market share.  like it or not that is about the way it is.

folks that don't have much in the way of inverters and such, generally don't have the rather large pile of money to pay for iron batteries, and those that have the pile of money already have put out a pile of it on inverters, controllers, backup charging systems etc that work on the lead acid technology.

the price is going to have to come way down, for the iron batteries to get any real market share.

also just because a battery is stated to last for 20-40 years does not mean a set you buy will last that long, it may well be that they
only last 15-20 years or less, due to other issues related to things like case materials, or some other issue unrelated to the core technology. only time will prove them one way or the other.

i am just very wary of any claims of longevity of a new production product based on experience of an old manufacture, a case in point is the lister vs listeroid diesel engine.

when these indian built listeroids (clone of a lister diesel) came to this country it was widely reported or stated that they would last a lifetime, 100k hours, etc.   this apparently based on the original listers history of longevity, which in my opinion was overstated and romaticized too.  the reality turns out that the listeroids will not make 100khrs, as a matter of fact most would never make 5khours without some major issue, and there were even some that had issues making a thousand hours before some catastrophic failure occurred.

therein is the basic problem,

folks generally will not change until there is a compelling reason to do so,

a battery made in china, at 4x the price of a lead acid battery, with no dealer structure on the continent, that needs very different charge and discharge voltages, etc. does not make a very compelling case for change.

environmental concerns are not a case for change either, anyone that is concerned with the environment is not going to dump the lead batteries in a landfill under any circumstances.

the price has got to come down, there needs to be a distribution network for product support/warrantee issues, and the manufacture has to prove his quality of the product, all of which is going to take time, a lot of time, or one heck of a pile of money.

my opinion only

bob g

[TomW]

bob g;

It is very good to hear these "other" opinions like yours and others in this thread.

I think lead acids are so well entrenched it will take considerable effort and infrastructure to see them get a real foothold.

I always wanted to try Nickle Iron batteries but am too heavily invested in equipment that has specifications unsuitable to them.

I am enjoying this thread and would hope the nickle iron battery will come of age one day. It may even be the kind of thing a DIY type could toss together in his garage? That would make it much more interesting.

Any emerging technology even an old one needs time to get up to speed.

Tom

[isoutar]

I am grateful to have never used lead batteries for home power.  No one else in the discussion has used them.  Hopefully some of the many nickel iron battery users will report to us. 

It is wonderful indeed to see that nickel iron batteries are back in use in north america.   We now have a battery for renewable use that is not simply a consumable item.  No need for anyone to theorize about their merits since both India and China are providing working cells. Changhong has been in production for over 20 years and their early customers are still using the batteries.  Their manufacturing equipment was designed by Varta of Germany based on their half century of production experience in Europe.

This is a refined and mature battery technology that is available for anyone building new renewable energy systems.   

Ian

[Bruce S]

I need to jump in here and ask this.
 Can you show us proof? I say this because I have sent several emails asking you for prices and you have not answered any including the website you once posted.
I have the time, the knowledge and testing equipment to really test these, yet you have not even answered my early questions about buying one single 1.2v battery cell.

                                                    The others are trying nicely to say the ROI does not meet their criteria.
NEW builds maybe, replacement; not with the current prices.

I have a 1.2V cell based system, and have built up a considerable amount of self knowledge of what it will take to employ these units.

Instead of saying how wonderful they are please now offer proof, even on the other website would be nice.

advertisement is easy please provide contactable proof, ie someone in the Northern Hemisphere, not related to you or the company providing the batteries.
 Edison batts, easy enough to find out how they really were, my father-in-law is old enough to remember seeing & using them as he was also a chemistry professor until he retired.

[TomW]

I need to jump in here and ask this.
 Can you show us proof? I say this because I have sent several emails asking you for prices and you have not answered any including the website you once posted.
I have the time, the knowledge and testing equipment to really test these, yet you have not even answered my early questions about buying one single 1.2v battery cell.

                                                    The others are trying nicely to say the ROI does not meet their criteria.
NEW builds maybe, replacement; not with the current prices.

I have a 1.2V cell based system, and have built up a considerable amount of self knowledge of what it will take to employ these units.

Instead of saying how wonderful they are please now offer proof, even on the other website would be nice.

advertisement is easy please provide contactable proof, ie someone in the Northern Hemisphere, not related to you or the company providing the batteries.
 Edison batts, easy enough to find out how they really were, my father-in-law is old enough to remember seeing & using them as he was also a chemistry professor until he retired.

Ian;

I guess the blunt statement many would make if they were as direct as me is:

Time to put up or shut up.

Talk is cheap but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

So far all I see are claims.

Big boys rules apply here. Repeating things doesn't make them true. This ain't Fox "news" or politics.

There, blunt and to the point.

I have joined Bruce and called your bet.

Time to show your cards. Ian.

Not picking on you just want to see your proof.

Tom

[isoutar]

Why the religious zeal to protect the reputation of lead acid batteries?   Many of us are mystified.  With a little research you also could be well informed! 

It is no good to do endless theorizing and bashing without a scrap of experience using NiFe battery system.   It sounds too good to be true ... but it is true.   

I am using NiFe on on my house and it lives up to its historical claims.   All December I have been running on the bottom half of the battery bank voltage since we have had very very dreary weather.   I have been grateful that it is no problem to discharge them to an extreme when you need to.  Now the sun is coming back and we lasted through Dec 21st without having to protect the battery from the deepest of discharges.    One week I tood them right down to zero volts just to see what happens!  They came right up and held their charge.

There is nothing to prove about NiFe Batteries  ... this is a very mature 100+ year old technology.   Lots of people on the internet have been using them for solar ... but not usually in North America.    China, India and Australia have been the first countries to use them in renewable applications.   UCLA at Santa Barbara is considering them for its remotely located astronomical observatory.  The University of Michigan is doing research on NiFe batteries for developing countries which you can read about.  I will wait for other users of nickel iron batteries for solar to speak of their experiences on this forum.    

The BC provincial museum has a Detroit Electric car from 1912 still running on its original NiFe battery.   So does the BC Hydro museum.  Also Jay Leno has two of the Detroit electric cars, one for him and one for his wife.   His own model is running on nickel iron batteries that were originally installed before the first world war.   These batteries have been in the news and on TV quite a bit right on the Jay Leno show.   That is where my research interest started.

Anyone who knows the history of Edison will realize this is a well proven and old technology.   Almost 3 million dollars was spent on its development from 1902 to 1910 and it remains the best researched battery chemistry in history!  In 1975 the Exide lead acid battery company, having purchase the Edison Storage Battery company that made NiFe batteries ... Exide took them off the North American market and out of production.   They had attempted since 1910 to get them off the market and finally succeeded.    That is why very few in North America have heard of them.   Fortunately they are still manufactured in other countries.

Nothing that I have claimed is extraordinary in any way ... in fact it is rather old and boring news to historians.

Do your research ... you will be most amazed.  Here are some good references that are universally well accepted ...

Read the history of Edison and also the new book from 2005 called Internal Combustion by Edwin Black.   Edwin is a U of Florida researcher who explains why various technologies flourished and others were suppressed in the 20th century.    The GM conspiracy trial of 1938 by the US supreme court is most shocking to read.   GM, Firestone, Standard Oil and many other tire, car and oil companies destroyed almost all of the electric trains of the USA in order to boost the car industry.    All were found guilty by the US Supreme Court (1938 trial I think) of a massive conspiracy to kill technologies competing with oil.    The nickel iron battery was on the same list of technologies to be destroyed and discredited.   All this stuff is in Edwin Black's "Internal Combustion" which you can find second hand for 5 bucks online.   It was a New York Times best seller and the author is well respected.  I guess the GM Conspiracy Trial defendants were fairly successful considering your response!  

Worth looking up the .pdf file from about 2000 by the guy in Chicago downtown who is off grid using second hand NiFe cells from the 1930s and 1940s.   He has posted his design on the internet to help others.  

I leave it to you do do the basic research.   It has taken me two years to get through all the research and to build a working solar voltaic system using NiFe.  I feel no need to prove anything ... it is up to others to do their own research.

There are some here who really are not willing to do this research and yet who seem to be determined to discredit a very old and well tested technolgy?   Why would such folk be so narrow minded as to try to discredit an area of research in which they have no personal knowledge?  

Is there a motive for refusing to investigate what Edison determined to be his most significant invention?   Is it just belief or is it a business issue?

I need say nothing more ... since I only wanted to share my remarkable experiences to stimulate further work .. not to promote pointless arguing.

Are there any other NiFe researchers in the discussion who can share some real experience?

Ian

 

[SteveCH]

Well put. I became interested, then later intrigued, then later excited, about these batteries after first reading of them three or four months ago. Probably here on this forum, but in any case, recently. Our PV [off-grid] home is going to need Pb battery replacement before too very long, within the next year if not sooner, and these Edisons are quite promising. I spoke with BeUtilityFree last week and am doing the usual Internet searching for more info'. I cannot see a downside [yet] in them, other than initial cost, and the idea that they would probably last for many decades is great.

I am at the point of trying to determine whether my current system--controllers, inverter, etc.--will work or not work. One reads in one place, well, sure, those brands/models will work fine; in other places, well, no they won't and you will need to replace them or some of them.

I just don't see a downside, ultimately. And we've been off-grid since 1985, and the one cautionary thing I've been telling people who ask, all this time, is that the weak link in off-grid systems is the lead/acid battery. Perhaps, with luck, before too long I'll be telling them about the new NiFe bank we have.

[isoutar]

I should also add that single cells can be purchased through the Nickel Iron Battery Association site but they are meant for researchers.   If anyone wants to do tests samples are available from that site.   I send them out for the assocation and most have gone out to USA based university researchers.

Price example ... my own (200 amp hour system of 22 cells at 26.4 volts) was 3000 dollars approximately.   I was looking for a long term storage solution so this was welcome news that such a system did exist.  I would not even have built a solar lighting plant if I had to use lead acid.   Having worked for the Canadian National Research Council in the mid 1980s ... I never wanted to consider lead acid batteries for any of my future projects.   They were so easily destroyed that solar applications are not an ideal use for them.   We made the decision back then to look for something better and in 1980 we were 5 years past the time when NiFe batteries could be purchased in the USA or Canada.   We did not know they were still made in China and Russia.

Typically ( I think I stated this before) NiFe systems are about 400% more expensive than high end (15 year lifespan) lead acid batteries.   The 15 year lead battery lifespan of course could get cut to 10 years and less if there is one single low discharge.    The price difference is easy to explain since nickel is worth 10 times the price of lead.   Only half is nickel and iron is worthless.   So the cost difference is held in the recycling value of the batteries.   However since they very will might last so long that they never get recycled ... you cannot count on recovering the nickel in your lifetime.   However ... this is offset by a storage system that is reliable often for 30 years or more with no sudden failures and no downtime to replace batteries.  

Nickel iron batteries die slowly over 30 years or more.  In many cases they can be covered by washing the electrodes and filling the cells with fresh electrolyte.   You can read about this in Edison's original pamphlet on the care of NiFe from 1922.  

http://www.evdl.org/docs/edison_brochure.pdf   <<< this link will get you Edison's manual.

The chinese ones are proportional ... so that 400 amp hours " 26 volts would be $6000.

That gives you a fairly good idea of pricing accurate to within 20% at this time.   The price varies according to the price of Nickel.

ChangHong Batteries of China is one seller that Canadians use.    In the USA sellers include a company in Montana that re-manufactures Edison cells from the 1920s onwards.   Their prices seem to be about double the Changhong prices.   http://www.zappworks.com/

There is another USA manufacturer or importer (not sure which) called BeUtilityFree which can be found on Google.

Ian

[dnix71]

You didn't answer a previous request of mine in this thread. I asked for a NiFe battery that would start my van. No such battery exists. There are some that would run an electric car, but not one that would replace the lead acid battery in my van.

That's where the market is. If I could afford it I could make a NiMH battery that would directly replace the lead acid battery in my Ford Aerostar van (3.0L v-6, gasoline ICE).

NiMH has exactly the same environmental profile as NiFe. Completely non toxic. A nominal 12vdc NiMH could be used in place of lead acid because the voltage swing from discharged to fully charged is almost the same. That is simply not so with NiFe.

There are over 800 million cars in the world.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile If you want to take the world for NiFe then all you have to do is make a NiFe battery that will drop-in replace the lead acid battery that is currently used. Lead acid is hazardous and toxic. Any real alternative that is non-toxic will win the world.

Once you make a billion common car batteries, the price becomes affordable and I can take the same battery and use it for renewable energy. I use hybrid deep cycle/starting batteries at home for my bank. They are cheap and will last ten years if I take care of them. That's what works. Take something common and adapt it to renewable energy.

My home appliances were made to use in automobiles. That makes them common and affordable. I can use them at home and on the road.

Personally I don't think NiFe is going anywhere. NiMH and lithium iron phosphate are.

[isoutar]

Nickel metal hydride would make excellent car batteries but unfortunately the patent owner will only allow flashlight batteries. This owner is Chevron I believe.

It is too bad that oil interests have control of that cell chemistry.

Ian.

[bob g]

i am going to reassert that the iron batteries are never going to catch on in RE until they get down to 2x the price (or less) what
one can buy a quality "true" deep cycle battery for.

if the made sense, at the current price levels we would see them in widespread use in the telecom industry and other industries where back up battery power is needed.

when one does an in depth analysis of the lifespan vs first cost and factors in kw/hours delivered and efficiency they just don't make sense for the vast majority of RE applications, they just don't.

there are other concerns i have that surround chinese manufacturing, they usually are able to produce a good product but when times get tight they will cut corners without concern to maintain sales and their profit margins, they also have issues from time to time with qualified labor,,, times get slow the workers go back to the farm and then the manufacture is left to scramble to come up with bodies to fill the positions on the line,,, this always affects quality control.

we are seeing this with chinese diesel engine's from various manufactures over the last couple years.

believe me i would like to believe in the chinese iron battery, however i am not going to accept any claims that the batteries will be useful for over 20 years, at least at a level that is anything near its new performance.

the price has to come down at least in half, and their will need to be "quality" UL/CE listed inverters and charge controllers, that alone is going to be a serious barrier to entry for the iron batteries into the RE game at least in this country.  inverter manufactures are not going to make special inverters for a very small market that is already very small.

i know of only one inverter manufacture in this country that can and will make custom voltage inverters, and they are bloody expensive, however they claim a mtbf of 20 years plus, and they have been around long enough to prove the warrantee is good.

see the thing is most folks that have the kind of money to buy battery banks that cost 4x what a lead batter costs, will in all likelihood have a need for several hundred amp/hours @48 volts, meaning the cost would be astronomical.  you need certified stuff to get government subsidies and tax breaks.  guys that have this sort of money also have a lot of money to pay to have this sort of thing installed, and even more money to pay attorney's to enforce their warrantee.  this is another barrier to entry because no smart installer is going to put his name on the line for a product that doesn't have an established infrastructure in this country, unless of course his markup is on the order of 50-100%... and there you go...

now the batteries are 6-8x what one can buy a quality lead battery for.

this is worse than which came first "the chicken or the egg" the classic "catch 22"

you just can't get here from there.

much like solar panels back in the 60's, the only buyers for the technology was nasa, the military, and maybe a handful of whacky
millionaires.

i suppose you might get some traction with these batteries marketing to the "emerald triangle" which thankfully they were the boys that bought the solar panels when they were horribly expensive because they had both a real need and the disposable income to afford them.

in my experience most of the true RE guy need or want about 1000amp/hrs at 48volts, which cost maybe 5 grand (likely more) for quality lead acid batteries, there is no way they are going to spend 20 grand for the same size bank let alone 30 or 40 grand.

to me this is like having a micro nuclear reactor, that fits in a 5 gallon bucket, and can power a home for 50 years with no maintenance or fuel,, if the thing cost 1 million dollars what real use is it to a RE guy?  the first cost is way out of reach and the
cost per kwatt hour might take all of the 50 years to pay itself off.

or a simpler analogy might be this,  how many people will shell out 10 grand for a rolex when a 20 dollar timex will do the job
for all practical purposes just as well?  who cares if the rolex will run for 20 or 40 years?  i can buy a lot of timex watches for a 10grand rolex.

i can also buy 4 sets of the finest rolls surrette batteries  and my bet is they last longer than the chinese iron batteries, of course i am not factoring in inflation, but i bet most RE buyers won't even get that far in the process.

gotta know your market, and in my opinion the chinese iron battery manufacture clearly does not know his market, a least in how it
is here in the good old USA.

thats the way i see it anyway, but what the heck do i know?

bob g

[isoutar]

Someone mentioned starting a car with nickel iron batteries ... this would be a poor application for the technology.    All engineering components  have ideal applications and the ones for which they are unsuitable.   Nickel iron is unsuitable in its flooded form for starting cars.   It is ideal for long term stationary storage where it is important to avoid failures and replacements.

You need to factor in a number of other costs associated with a large renewable energy installations of lead acid ... and this will explain why the Chinese are using NiFe in their village remote power systems ...

1/ The cost of replacing lead acid batteries ... the removal of them and the delivery of replacements.    These remote villages are hard to get to as you can see from the pictures.  Transportation is very expensive to these regions.  

2/ The reliability of a system based on lead acid battery systems is low.    It will fail a number of times as batteries go down causing a number of temporary failures and also necessitating the need for two or more sets of working batteries to switch between.   Lead batteries are subject to both going down slowly and catastrophic failures.   The catastrophic failures never are an issue with NiFe cells.    If one NiFe cell goes down you can easily short it out of the system and only lose 1.2 volts.   The chances of a cell failure are almost zero.  

My Design Goal ... Remote Power for Schools
These are the main reasons that the Chinese opted for the system at the beginning of this thread.   Great reliability and also because it is not a system built up of consumable items like lead batteries.    This is an ideal application for nickel iron batteries in the field.    This  is the reason I am doing this research in my own home.   The design will be forwarded to several organizations that provide simple engineering power systems for schools in developing countries.  The goal is to have a power system with no consumables ... not lead batteries to deliver and no gasoline or diesel to deliver.

My house power system is the test platform.   I simply do not have to worry about my batteries for the rest of my life.   The electric storage problem is solved for good.   I am 61 and the battery will last until I am well over 80 years old, perhaps even until I am 90.     As time goes on the replacing of heavy batteries will not even be possible for me as I get towards 80.   That issue has now been solved.  

You cannot base engineered designs exclusively on looking for the North American standard which often unfortunately is to get the "cheapest you can buy".    Sometimes people aim for a quality design.   I personally cannot live with a consumable item design which is the case with lead acid batteries.   It is simply a deisgn choice.   It works well for me ... why would anyone be opposed to a design that works?  

It is a mystery to me why there are people arguing that I should not have built my power system in this way?   Take a look at the village power the Chinese are using.    Why would anyone be opposed to such a system?

If you really want extreme reliability and ease of operation it is necessary to spend a bit more money on storage.   Nickel Metal Hydride would also be a great choice but it is unavailable in large sizes due to the misuse of patents by oil corporations who own the patent.   This would have been a prime choice for me if I could purchase them.  

There are many choices for power storage.   We became famous of Vancouver Island here for producing Canada's first hydrogen assisted sailboat.   I have a number of hydrogen fuel cells at my disposal.   This was one option for electric storage ... the conversion to hydrogen.    It worked well for boats but the nickel iron battery was the easiest solution I could find for the home.

This is such a North American discussion!!   There is no reason to have one "best" solution.  There are many solutions and each has its advantages.   It is only in North America that designers often press for an absolute winning design.  There is not a need for a single winning design solution.   What I have been offering is an engineering option for situations where it is appropriate to seek reliability and ease of maintenance.   The Chnese were well aware that the batteries they were using for their village were expensive initially.   For their application the long term cost is lower with nickel based batteries.    Nickel Metal Hydride was one of their options too since the patent issue would not be a problem for them.

If you want the cheapest system you can build without regard for ease of maintenance then lead acid is a good choice you can make.   In the renewable energy business the batteries are widely known to be the least reliable component!   We all know this to be the case.   There are other options ... not sure why some are arguing for an absolute best solution.   Such solutions really never exist in engineering since the needs of various applications demand custom solutions according to the need.

If you want maximum long term reliability then nickel iron or nickel metal hydride would be choices that lacks the long term maintenance problems.    There is no reason to press for a "winner" ... since there is no such thing.   Each battery has its most ideal applications and there is no winner.   There is only the best choice given the design goals.   My favoured choice would have been Nickel Metal Hydride batteries.   Unfortunately they are not available in large format batteries like they once where in the EV2 car by GM!   But they could be used in modern renewable energy products.    

How to get Nickel Metal Hydride in large format batteries?
Can we press Chevron and other NIckel Metal Hydride patent holders to open up their technology to produce large format batteries once again?   It is a second engineering option to achieve long term reliability.    When used in hybrid cars the designers are forced to use arrays of flashlight batteries if they need nickel metal hydride.   Government action should turn that situation around!   That is a political rather than an enginerring issue.

If I was to choose between nickel iron and nickel metal hydride I would choose the later.   Unfortunately it is not currently an option for large format batteries ... but it could be with sufficient political pressure.

I will not discuss this topic further in the forum.  It would appear that a vocal minority would rather not hear about such engineering alternatives.   I would also recommend to the moderator that open minded investigation of new technologies be encouraged rather than discouraged.

Ian
 

[bob g]

Ian

nothing wrong with discussion in my opinion, we all learn something from it in the end.

you speak of engineering and there being no single best solution, this is a contradiction if there ever was one.

the very definition or goal of engineering is to arrive at the single best solution for a give problem, by best it is usually
the solution that gets the job done with the best balance of cost vs benefit factoring in a variety of other considerations like
availability, user acceptance, maintenance considerations, reliability etc.

now had you stated that there is no "one " solution for "all" problems/applications no one would argue with you.

another problem i have with your approach is the use of worst case scenario's to prove your assertions, for instance your assertion
that lead acid batteries can or will be damaged by so much as a single excessively deep discharge when this is clearly not the case.

i would also state that anyone that is contemplating any sizable battery investment will likely also invest in the necessary technology to keep an excessive discharge or overcharge from happening without an override, i know i certainly would.

as for cost, an basically deriding those that are looking for the cheapest alternative, i would ask you this

why would i spend 4 times the cost of a lead battery, accept a much lower charge/discharge efficiency, all on the promise of the batteries lasting over 20 years?   that is just not good engineering in anyone's book, in my opinion.

i bet i could make a very compelling case for the use of standard automotive starting batteries, and i am not at all suggesting that anyone use them for RE, but i could make a better case for them than you can for the iron batteries at this time.  for that matter i could make a very good case for just buying a high quality generator and running it as needed. i can buy one hell of a lot of fuel for the cost difference between lead and iron batteries,,, and i am not suggesting that anyone does this, but i can make a good case for doing it that way.

you see, you are accusing us of only looking for the one best solution to the problem, all the while you are asserting that iron batteries are the "one" solution for RE applications.  it just seems contradictory to me?

as for you asking for other RE guys that use iron batteries to step up in support of the batteries and their use, well that ends up being somewhat anecdotal doesn't it?  i would expect anyone that has put out 4 x what he could have bought lead batteries for to be somewhat biased, surely you don't expect him/her to admit that perhaps he made a mistake?

as for the edison technology and your asking us to do some research and educate ourselves, i have done both as many here have too. i have a good understanding of the technology and accept that the edison cells were very good, however to assert that just because edisons were good the chinese batteries are just as good might be a stretch.

this is tantamount to stating that a yugo is as good as a mercedes automobile, afterall they are both cars, they are both built using the same technology (4 stroke internal combustion engines, made of the same materials, iron/aluminum/plastic)

while i admire your passion, i take issue with some of your assertions


bob g

[Bruce S]

Nickel metal hydride would make excellent car batteries but unfortunately the patent owner will only allow flashlight batteries. This owner is Chevron I believe.

It is too bad that oil interests have control of that cell chemistry.

Ian.

Umm you might want to do a little more research before you make these claims.
1)Chevron might not like being finger pointed at since this statement is very un-true.
2)The Very company you are touting makes VERY large NiMh batteries for e-bikes, e-autos, UPS systems,etc
3) They also still make very large NiCd batteries which if I believed everything I read over on treehugger's website, is now in trouble for poisoning a town.

Please to do quote saying to do my research, obviously you did not read my entire post otherwise you would've noticed my last statement.

Can you give me the town's name that these were deployed to? I'd like to read more about them rather than reading more about "your" system.

I'll again ask, please provide contactable proof.
Best of Luck
Bruce S

 

[ghurd]

It would appear that a vocal minority would rather not hear about such engineering alternatives.   I would also recommend to the moderator that open minded investigation of new technologies be encouraged rather than discouraged.

Moderators did not delete it.

There are not many people here qualified to talk about the chemistry.  (I am not)
I don't follow how it is a new technology when it is apparently a century old.
I do not really follow all advantages you believe there are, and I expect most people are in the same situation as I am.

You seem to be all worked up over the fact that people are not getting as excited as you are.

This is what it sounds like to me:
You are proposing a larger RE system than normally required to charge low efficiency (arguably unavailable) batteries requiring a (arguably unavailable) charge controller and (arguably unavailable) inverter or suitable (arguably unavailable) DC loads.

Nothing I see in that is going to get me excited.
The only thing that is available to me is the larger than normally required RE.
G-

[Bruce S]

                                                                                   I am disappointed in the Author
I took a leap towards NiCds in years past: to examine them and how recyclable they are and how best to reuse them for everyday items and then some.
Look where those wonderful people in the Banaue region would be if I and others here had not.

It appears I have struck a nerve or something else is a foot as the mythical person would say.

Open minded discussion is exactly what I'm looking for, and to say that is is a North American discussion is about as closed minded as you can get  .
With nearly every world country represented here it would be very hard to keep it a North American discussion.
1) because I believe world wide discussion will get us all to a better point of efficiency, case in point the LED master class and the buck/booster discussions going on.
2) there are as many people I count as friends that are not living in the USA and probably never will that would kick me in the head if I tried  .

One thing I really don't like is the quote made" I would also recommend to the moderator that open minded investigation of new technologies be encouraged rather than discouraged." just because I have the mod title does not give me any better standing here than anyone else, rather, have been requested to stay offline a time or to to cool down.
                                                       This quote is a cop-out All I am asking is for contactable proof; nothing more, nothing less.
I can easily prove the company The Author advertises here for, is still making the very other chemistry based batteries and  The Author seems bent on blaming a US based company with a statement that is just short of slander and close to being a lie, if not outright wrong: provable by that companies very own website.

It is unfortunate the Author cannot take the requests in good faith and deliver. Me thinks he cannot.

I welcome new and old technology information to prove my stance I will contact the company through my devices a see if any of the Author's claims are valid.

It is sad to see this discussion turn this way, I had such high hopes
Bruce S

 

 

[isoutar]

Glad to know that the nickel metal hydride design has been freed up for manufacturing.   It was a long time in coming .. this is what killed the EV2 design from GM.   They were no longer allowed to buy the large format nickel metal hydride batteries.

 I leave it up to you guys to follow the internet links I have provided.   You will get all the answers you need.   I will not engage in arguing the point.   The facts speak for themselves and there is no reason for me to speak them.

I too am curious about the villages that are receiving these systems in China.   You can ask Changhong Batteries directly through their website which is what I will be doing.   The village installation is on the http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com site and others on that site have requested the location of that Chinese installation.    I will ask them where it is and perhaps I can get more pictures which can be posted on the site.

Take a look at the battery conference coming up this year in Florida.  Nickel Iron will be re-introduced to the discussion group by Peter DeMar, one of the senior battery researchers in the USA.   I have been working with him since September to get the newest data from China and create north american IEEE standards for their use.

Battcon Conference and NiFe discussion for 2011

battcon

Peter DeMar will be speaking on standards issues concerning NiFe batteries in part.   He is a prominent USA battery researcher from New Jersey where he picked up a bunch of NiFe batteries from the 1930s.   He followed Edison's guide on how to bring them back to life.    He will be speaking of his experiences.   He is in the IEEE battery group and is requesting that standards be re-established for nickel iron and has done some remarkable work.   If people really want answers to the questions about NiFe batteries, consider attending the conference.

Look at his introduction on the conference website ...

Pete DeMar
Founder
Battery Research and Testing
Pete has over 30 years in the stationary battery industry, most in the stationary power sector. When he and others founded Battery Research and Testing in 1982, it was the first independent stationary battery service company in the US. Pete has performed all functions, from battery inspections to designing and installing 10,000 amp battery plants. He was the lead from BR&T in discovering the benefits gained from the coupling of the replacement of lost water in VRLA cells with a catalyst in the head space to recover lost capacity, which has progressed into the long term recovery process known as IOVR+. Pete is the longest consecutively serving member of the IEEE Battery Working Group, active since 1982, and has been involved with most standards over that time. He is the author of the UPS Battery Maintenance section of The Electricity Forum’s 2005 Uninterruptible Power Supplies and Standby Power Handbook, been published in Batteries International, and presented and/or been published at Battcon, InfoBatt, Intelec, Power Quality and other conferences.

A comment of Peter DeMar is that the sizing of an NiFe battery is completely different from that of a lead acid system.   In lead batteries you generally only discharge the top 20% of the battery in order to protect it.   With NiFe batteries you can regularly discharge 75% of their capacity.   I had not thought of this before.  Peter pointed out that a 200 amp hour system is closer to being equivalent to a 500 or 600 amp hour lead acid storage battery simply because you can discharge them way beyond 20% without a battery performance penalty.

If you want the facts about NiFe battery systems ... they are coming out this year at most battery conferences this year (2011).   At the University of Victoria where I work there is research on NiFe underway presently.   I may make it to the Battcon conference and perhaps will see some of you down there.   Last year an Indian research group presented a paper on Nickel Iron batteries used in remote telephone applications in India.   You can read this paper on the internet.

I believe in the last few emails I have provided enough links that anyone can confirm that this venerable old battery technology is still alive and well in the 21st century.   Please do your own research to verity that what I have said is accurate.   There is no point in arguing.

I will not however be back to this forum for further discussion.   There is no need to prove out a technology that has been proven to work well for over a century.   It is however a new technology for most of North Americans and it is well worth knowing about.

Ian

[rossw]

Ian, you seem to be off on a tangent.

I don't think anyone was saying NiFe cells are a con or don't work. I think many of us would be happy to have them - if we could have them in a viable form!

You've taken it personally and keep on "flogging the dead horse" - as if saying the same thing enough times will make it all right. You're sounding like a one-eyed zealot with shares in a NiFe manufacturer or importer/distributor!

What I, and others, pointed out was that they are UNSUITABLE for retro-fitting into (most) existing installations. I spent a great deal of time last year telephoning and emailing manufacturers and suppliers (including the ones you mentioned, plus several others) - and makers of inverters etc to try to come up with SOME practical combination that would work FOR ME - hell, I had arranged a loan to buy the batteries it was that close before I reluctantly pulled the plug on it.

I suggest you stop going all "religious wars" on us. Where someone has asked a direct question that you (claimed to) have the answers to - you ANSWER THEM with CLEAR and DIRECT answers. Don't simply re-quote the same stuff and refer to the great, unidentified "them". Your credability is at stake - the first post read a little like an advert to me, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I regret to say that it's been all downhill since then.

[Bruce S]

Glad to know that the nickel metal hydride design has been freed up for manufacturing.   It was a long time in coming .. this is what killed the EV2 design from GM.   They were no longer allowed to buy the large format nickel metal hydride batteries.

  I will not engage in arguing the point. 

Again you are incorrect in this, the large NiMh batteries did not die nor were they ever out of production, the very company you keep pushing has been producing them this entire time, never stopped, NOR did they stop making NiCd in large fashion either.  LARGER than even the ones TomW has by a very large margin.

Never mind the provable facts that the EV was a proof of concept. AND that as I was corrected in a different post; Hybrid Camry still use NiMh packs.

                                             You sir need to begin getting your facts correct OR do a better job of research.

I did not wish to ever have this become a argument , only that there be a specific place in which confirm facts were someone here can go check it out.
You must not be reading the entire posts here otherwise you would've seen this very request multiple times.

Posting another person's CV does not impress me, anyone can be a presenter at this conference. ALL they merely needed to do was request and pay the associated fees.
Our company holds conferences around the world monthly on medical devices and safety I know about conferences.

When you have solid facts that I or someone here can go and see & test then come back with it otherwise your words no longer interest me.

Good day

[joestue]

I just can't understand how you would go for a battery that's only 60% efficent when there are 66% efficient Nimh cells and 80+% efficient Ni-cd cells and 97-98% efficient Li-Ion cells.

obviously there is a trade off between the cost of production and the cost of storage, but just because a battery lasts five times as long as another doesn't really mean anything to me.

for example the only cells suitable for all electric cars are li-ion, and they are still too expensive.
i would not go for a ni-fe starting battery, though they could handle the stress. Ni-cd starting batteries would last 20 years in a car, but who wants to decrease maintenance costs? Pb-so4 batteries probably last on average 5 years in a car, and take less effort to recycle than do ni-cd, whats the point?
you think nickel is less dangerous than lead?
lead doesn't form water soluble compounds in nature, except for lead acetate, nickel is a superfund nightmare.

hybrid car manufactures would use the more efficient ni-cd cells over the ni-mh cells, if they were cost effective.
from their point of view it is not, there are numerous papers on this.
ni-mh is locked at 66% efficientcy due to h20 recombination during recharge, you can read about it on wiki. ni-fe cells are worse.
ni-mh is essentially a hydrogen fuel cell with the hydrogen stored in a nickel-metal hydride.. think about that for a second.

when primary generation costs hardly a dollar a watt, you have to do the math and the depreciation.
there are so few people looking to build a RE system that will last 40 years...

energy is cheap. storage is not.

but at the same time, i can't even plan more than 5 years out due to the lack of political stability.