Author Topic: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"  (Read 17380 times)

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DamonHD

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Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« on: December 28, 2010, 08:28:17 AM »
Hi,

I think I'm going for a massive upgrade from my (12V) 40Ah gel to 400Ah of AGM (2 x IEB 12-200), to get me over 2kWh of usable storage.  It'll mean moving the battery system outside too, though since we've never gotten to -10C I'm not too worried about protecting them from low temps (should I be?).

I have the option to re-arrange to a 24V system if I want to.

Now, my confusion is that the batteries are described as "sealed" AGM but of course the Morningstar has "gel", "sealed", "AGM" and "flooded" profiles, of which the last two apply monthly equalisation.  Now I thought that equalisation was basically a no-no with sealed batteries, so I'm thinking that I should use the "sealed" setting rather than "AGM"...

What are the opinions here?  I'll go and look at Morningstar's FAQs in a moment since the manual seems to contradict itself, but the FL wisdom would be welcome!

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 09:07:56 AM »
I have to assume you are planning on using a TS-MPPT-45 or TS-MPPT-60.

"Sealed” battery type can include gel and AGM batteries - it seems to be a placeholder title for intermediate charge values to cover possibilities offered from different product lines. There are many hybrid AGM construction batteries out there sold to the general public designed around raised voltage specs in hopes of protecting their dealer networks against warranty payout losses from misuse etc.

Supposedly complete custom charge profiles can be assigned using their MSView PC software & the equalization profiles can be disabled via 'manual' setting. They state the "sealed" equalization is only a 0.1 Volt (12V battery) boost cycle to level individual cells - my battery instructions say that same high rate of charge is useful if you know there will be a deep discharge before a normal charge would ready the battery, where a greater discharge percentage would do more harm than boosting the charge (with proper temp compensation, etc.)

Outside - remote temperature sensor time. Note they give an example: "Consider that at 0°C (32°F) the equalization voltage will reach 16.75 Volts for 12 Volt L-16 batteries (67.0 Volts for 48 Volt systems) with a temperature sensor installed. Disconnect any loads at risk of damage due to the high input voltage."

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 09:20:59 AM »
Hi,

Thanks for that fast feedback!

1) I'm using the SS-MPPT-12L.

2) I'll be moving it outside with the batteries.  Probably have it a couple of feet above them on the wall.

3) Current draw is generally tiny, much less than 1A (actual primary load can drop to 4W or less), but charge current could easily hit the 15A max of the MS controller depending on how I arrange the panels.  The main reason for the large bank is to coast for many days in winter with very poor insolation and capture what there then is effectively, eg on a sunny cold day.

4) The SS-MPPT-12L claims a voltage limit of 15V to protect down-stream devices, regardless of temperature.

"Sealed" seems a bit hand-waving to me, but I guess it's a "not quite sure what it is but I can't add water" setting.

But why would MS recommend equalisation for AGM: can they contain the raised pressure and recombine the gases safely even on that higher voltage?

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 09:35:45 AM »
Personally, I would not equalize AGM. 
That said, I have seen AGM data sheets showing info for equalization.

And -10C is not all that cold if the battery has much charge in it.
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 12:17:02 PM »
Kewl: well as long as no one says that:

1) The IEB brand is rubbish

2) That's way too much battery for that controller

3) Something else I haven't thought of yet

then I'm inclined to go ahead and do it, and set the controller to "sealed" which is just a tiny bit more vigorous than "gel".

Thanks for all the input.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 04:35:28 PM »
OK, here's my proposed rat's nest which should keep the old gel SLA alive but without stealing much energy from the rest of the system.  Fuses and common sense omitted from this diagram.

http://www.earth.org.uk/img/20101228-off-grid-schematic.pdf

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 05:11:38 PM »
Ahh, I see the SS-MPPT-15L (^12L listed above)

200 watts into a cold 200AH battery string may not even register with 18 hours of sunlight let alone 3/4/5/6 hours...

I propose the batteries be kept indoors as near to 70°F as possible if you really want a such a large bank - temp correction really is that important.






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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 01:37:19 AM »
No space inside the heated part of the house; these batteries would be in an unheated shed next to the house, with the controller (with inbuilt temperature sensor) within a few feet of it.  I may wrap the batteries in an aerogel box at some point to keep their temperature a little more steady especially in winter.

I don't mind a few days' winter sun not making much difference as I'm intending the store to be big enough to carry some energy from Oct/Nov to Dec/Jan to cope with abysmal lack of sun then.

The biggest problem would be if the self-discharge exceeded the available sunshine in winter to keep the batteries from getting damaged.  By the looks of the specs that I have seen, generic AGM should have about the lowest self-discharge available.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 10:09:05 AM »
OK, I've ordered my batteries.  Actually coming as 4x100Ah, which is fine since I could build a 48V string in future if necessary, and they'll be easier to move without doing my back in!

120kg of lead+stuff landing on my doorstep soon.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 07:22:14 PM »
I'm not sure what you should do really, but it's been my experience that I'm not getting the most out of my AGM set while they are outside in the cold.  I don't use more than 10% of their rated capacity on a daily basis, so this isn't a problem at all.  But your case is different where you're trying to increase the usefulness of your storage battery and reduce dependence on the grid.  Things that penalize the battery capacity could lead to overusing their capacity or over-draining them.

For example, on a cold sunny day the meters all tell you that the float voltage was maintained throughout the day despite your household consumption, so you assume you have full batteries in the afternoon.  Problem is you have full+cold batteries so it's not 400 Ah you have - it's more like 300 Ah.  As you consume the battery charge in the evening you may notice the battery voltage drop faster than usual.  In the morning you'll wake up to find their standing voltage a few points lower than you'd like it.

These are just "anecdotal" observations so I can't really explain everything that I see happening to mine.
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 03:44:52 AM »
Sure, I hear you.  But my understanding from looking at the numbers is that I should lose ~10%--20% of capacity at 0C/freezing, which the outside temperature is only rarely below in my neck of the woods.

And indeed I think I've seen the capacity reduction in my existing gel battery parked right up against the external air vents in its current location: I've slightly shielded it and seen an improvement.

I'll wrap them up warm for winter too, in some of my left-over aerogel insulation, which may help keep their temperatures up in all but the most sustained cold.  And if all that fails I might be able to negotiate to bring them in and put them somewhere inside, though I don't really want a couple of kWh under the wooden stairs as a DIY fire hazard for example.

Rgds

Damon
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 05:06:36 AM by DamonHD »
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 05:42:16 AM »
I've just contacted Morningstar to get their advice on "sealed" vs "AGM" setting given the particular batteries I am getting.  I'm not holding out much hope that they can help, but we'll see.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 10:32:28 AM »
As an idea maybe you could put a pipe from your house to where the batteries are and run a small cooling fan taken from a computer. Put a thermostat in line or switch and when it gets to cold it will come on and run warm air to your battery box keeping them a little warmer. I think that the fans are 12V dc. There could be a timer so as not to run your power supply down. I plan on running some 2 in pipe under ground up to my sugar shack for heat with a switch to turn on before I go up. I will install another one where my pickup will be parked and I will be able to put hot air on it before I try and start it when it is cold outside. It is better than using an electric heater for the engine. I will be heating with wood and do most of my cooking with wood.  Just an idea to work with or toss. 
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 11:22:22 AM »
I haven't been able to find a spec sheet on any IEB battery.

I have a feeling MorningStar will try and cover their arse and tell you to use "Sealed".

It all depends on the specs for the battery but given the voltage difference between the "Sealed Absortion" and "AGM Equalize" routines is only 0.4v, I would probably feel comfortable setting them up on the "AGM" routine... especially in colder weather.

If you feel uneasy with equalizing them, shut the automatic equalizing off and try the "AGM" routine out for a time?

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 07:42:28 AM »
I think that in the absence of feedback from Morningstar I will go with either "sealed" (which has no equalisation) or "AGM" with auto-equalisation turned off, thank you!  I think I'll start with the latter in fact, in a spirit of boldness...

I've also worked out that the way I have my LiFePO4 set up to preferentially supply the server, and with a capacity for about 2 days' consumption (at least when there's some decent sunshine), it should take most of the cycling load off the SLA which may significantly prolong its life.

This combo of small LiFePO4 and big (slow self-discharge) LA might be one for others to think about also, to maximise battery life for a given amount of cash.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »
it is my understanding that AGM finds a short 1/2h +0.4V equalize healthy (12V bank), but gel wouldn't stand it. :)
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »
The controller's program is for a 3h equalise, but in any case  just thought that equalising and sealed didn't go well together...

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 07:14:47 PM »
No, best to not equalize AGM's until you start experiencing problems... ;) (i see your battery has one way venting valves letting excess gassing escape, so at least, it won't explode ;D )
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 09:58:40 AM »
Bah!

The batteries that turned up today are a completely different brand of marine sealed flooded (Exrider XV27 MF).  They're not IEB, they're not AGM and they are only rated for 250 cycles for far as I can see.

They've promised to sort it out but I've stressed that AGM (with min 500 cycles to 50% DoD or thereabouts) is critical (or gel at a pinch).

Grrrrrr.  Another week of waiting minimum.

Still, I'm getting some of the wiring done today.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 10:49:18 AM »
http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/XV27/

They class that as a 250 life-cycles battery.

£73.95 / $114.33 USD for a 105AH sealed calcium plate battery is about 2/3rds the price I'm seeing online and locally here.

Hold out for what you want, though those would be adequate for quite some time...


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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2011, 11:01:00 AM »
I think the lack of cycles would be the killer for me, plus I think in an unheated shed there is a risk of flooded cells freezing, plus I really don't want any nasties vented while I'm charging.

The people at that firm that you link to don't recommend that the XV is used for solar.

If my supplier says he'll give me 50% to save himself the hassle of two more sets of transport charges then I'll say yes because that makes up for the cycle life at a guess.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 12:17:14 PM »
I'd love to see photos of the batteries you received, the documentation says they are sealed but I'm guessing its really a maintenance-free style FLA with a hybrid plate composition to give a longer shelf life for their vendor network to dodge having to recharge them prior to installing them? The do claim a lowered self-discharge, IF I correctly found your battery type online. That Exrider brand has no/low web documentation on it, rumor point to being made in Korea and the only active OEM-looking website I found was in Pakistan!

With your milder climate and urban heat island effect FLA batteries would nearly have to be weeks-flat before they'd freeze. They are talking about -30F's (-35C) here in a week or so, all bets are off if you see that! :)

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2011, 12:42:54 PM »
They look just like on the site, and indeed these seem to have been drop-shipped from the people you and I found.

It's basically a no-name no-spec brand.

I might accept them for 50% off.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2011, 08:48:12 AM »
OK, supplier is taking these "marine" batteries back.  A shame but not what I asked for and not the cycle life I need I think.

Starting with a clean sheet and looking at other suppliers (all a lot more expensive), the choice now seems to be something like

4 x Rolls S12-128AGM
 or
4 x Victron 12V/100Ah-110Ah AGM
or
4 x MK 8G27-DEKA gel

The last ones are currently at a better price *and* have documented cycle life 1000--6000 cycles at 50%--10% DoD, which is more like what I'll subject them to.

Any comments?

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2011, 10:15:47 AM »
The MK gels sure have good documentation. See the Alt-E Store listing specifications section for a good slew of details...

Looks like the Victron line does not have the cycles you need - and the Rolls are simply massive at 115Ah for the next system incarnation you have planned...

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2011, 10:26:01 AM »
Yes, I've gone with the gels providing my card doesn't melt under the strain...  Very expensive compared to the deal I thought that I was getting, but a decent price compared to the alternatives from other suppliers that I've used before.

The better documentation is certainly reassuring.

Rgds

Damon

PS. Looks like I'm sticking with the 'gel' setting on my controller after all!  %-P
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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2011, 11:43:30 AM »
Right, the new batteries are wired in.

I may have to revisit a few parts of the installation, eg I've currently screwed the controller to a wooden roof beam of the shed to get it out of the way, and though it's never been more than warm in all the time I've had it, I'll have to decide if it's too much of a fire hazard and needs moving to a brick wall.  I couldn't face the drilling fun in that space with poor light and with several small children due to come round to tea today.

And because I missed sun-down, the controller has decided that the batteries are low (though at 12.5V) and has operated its LVD, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning for the final check that all is well.  I'll take the opportunity to recheck and retighten all connections.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 01:02:47 PM »
I'd be more than a little concerned that the new batteries are sitting at 12.5v :o

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 01:17:41 PM »
I read 12.5V as ~90% SoC...

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 04:44:21 PM »
I would have expected them to reach you at a higher resting voltage.  Somewhere around 13v.  Are they fairly fresh off the manufacturing line?

Something more along the lines of this:
Quote
out of the box their resting voltage uncharged was 12.85 to 12.90. >about 130 passes on them and their resting voltage >after being on the shelf for 3 months is 12.97 to 13.01.
From here:http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LeadAcid#Deka
That remark is about some Hawker's but most sla I've dealt with hold on to their surface charge for quite a long time.

I've seen an old PowerSonic at 13.3v only drop to 12.9v after sitting for somewhere around 1.5 years.  This was years ago and I checked the ah then and it was still close to the rated 26ah.

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 04:57:07 PM »
Don't know.  I might send an email and ask, since you prompt me.

Rgds

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 05:26:23 PM »
Here's a pdf from Deka on how to read their date code... top right hand corner.  Not sure if that covers the MK 8G27 or not.

www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/poster.pdf

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Re: Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller: AGM vs "sealed"
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2011, 04:56:25 AM »
Thanks Zap.

Rgds

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