Ethanol Plant

[ChrisOlson]

Since 10% by volume of all the gasoline in the US is ethanol these days, this is where it comes from - not the pie-in-the-sky theories about cellulose or switchgrass - grain.  Most people think that when grain is used to make ethanol that people starve because it's being used to fuel cars instead of food for people.  Not true.

The byproduct from ethanol production is a sweet-tasting, light colored brown powder that provides a low fat, low starch, very high protein (about same as soy meal), highly digestible feedstuff for livestock called "distiller's grains".

We haul our corn to an ethanol plant about 35 miles away, and these are some photos of one of our recent runs to the plant

Pulled up in the waiting line to unload and a view of the plant from the service road - this plant produces 4.75 million gallons of ethanol per month.  Each semi sitting in the line holds enough corn to produce 2,650 gallons of ethanol:





While we were sitting in the waiting line a tanker train came in and they were pulling the cars out to a switch track with a yard mule so the cars could get on a different track where they are loaded.  My wife was sitting behind me in the line with her truck and she counted the cars when they went by - 84 tankers in this train.  Each tanker holds 22,800 gallons of ethanol





Getting closer to the unloading bays in the waiting line and we're up by the bins now.  Each one of these bins is 1.5 million bushels capacity.  1.5 million bushels is enough to make 4.1 million gallons of ethanol, so they go thru about one of these bins per month here.  This plant unloads 30 semis per hour, six days a week





Under the sample probe now where they take a sample of the corn from each truck and test it before it's unloaded to make sure it's good.



They normally run two lanes of trucks unloading and two lanes of loadout for distillers grains here.  On this particular day they had the left lane blocked because there was ice on top of those bins that was sliding off occasionally.  A one ton chunk of ice coming from 150 feet up is a quite dangerous thing.  When the chunks hit the ground it sounds like artillery being fired and the explosion on the ground is quite impressive.  Not safe to be in that lane this day - and make sure you leave your driver's window rolled up on the truck or else you'll get sprayed by an ice explosion when some comes off the roof of that bin.  It sounds like shrapnel hitting the truck.



Finally up to the door with my load - I've been in line here for about 15-20 minutes



And then I get inside and get unloaded.  The scale has the dumps right in it so we never have to move our trucks.  Just get on the scale, wait for the signal from the scale house that means they got your loaded weight, open the gates and dump it, then go in the scale house and get your scale ticket.

It takes less than 1 minute to unload 28 tons of grain here.  And you have to be quick and efficient and know what you're doing.  Our trucks have air suspension and we have to dump the air off the suspension to prevent damage to the air springs when the truck loses 28 tons of weight in 60 seconds.  So you dump the tractor air off as you're getting out of the cab and grab the trap crank on the way out.  Wait for the signal from the scale house, open the front hopper gate wide open, open the door on the side of the trailer for the air suspension and pull the knob to dump the trailer air off, open the rear gate wide open.  Go to the back of the trailer and roll your tarp back over and lock it, close the rear hopper gate, charge the trailer air suspension, close the front gate, leave the crank handle on the gate shaft and go get your scale ticket.  On the way back to the tractor you grab your crank handle off the front gate shaft, get in, charge the tractor suspension, release the brakes and get out of there.

If you waste even 5 seconds and don't complete the above procedure within one minute, one of the mill supervisors will come out of the scale house and chew your a$$ out for not knowing what you're doing - and tell you don't come back until you get your s^&t in one pile.  My wife jumped out of her truck and took these photos with her cell phone while I was unloading:





Got some more photos I snapped on the way out, showing the tanks where the ethanol is stored and loaded out in trains and truck tankers, but ran out of room to put them here.

So there - that's where 10% of the fuel in all your cars comes from these days - us lowly farmers.
--
Chris

[Mary B]

Big ethanol plant near my also. One of the early ones, been around a long time.

[ChrisOlson]

All the ethanol plants in the Midwest are farmer-owned.

Many people think that the amount of energy input to make a gallon of ethanol is too great.  But they don't understand the industry, or know what they're talking about.  All the "studies" look at is the energy input required to grow the corn vs what you get from the ethanol and forget to take into account that there is 17 pounds of high-protein distillers grain produced for every bushel of corn.  Once you run that distillers thru livestock and turn it into meat the overall efficiency of the whole thing is higher than using the corn direct to feed cattle.

Ethanol production in 2011 in the US utilized the starch in 5 billion bushels of corn to produce 39 million metric tons of high quality livestock feed and 13.9 billion gallons of ethanol.  US farmer-owned ethanol plants provided 35.7 million metric tons of distillers grains, 2.9 million tons of corn gluten feed, and 0.6 million tons of corn gluten meal.  That is considerably more than the amount of grain fed to all cattle at all the nation's feedlots.

When the RFS (Renewable Fuel Standard) became signed into law farmers said, "hey, we can do it - and we can do it at a competitive price with petroleum."  Nobody else could because they don't know what they're doing.  So the next time you run into a farmer you tip your hat and address him as "sir" because we ain't a bunch of hayseeds no more.
--
Chris

[Bruce S]

ChrisO;
I hear ya!! I'm always "correcting" people about the food-4-fuel nonsense.
Most who are all fired up don't even know that only 5% of ALL corn grown ever even makes to to stores as food.

BUT you did forget one other component that is also very much apart of the total energy output.
The waste water from the both before and after distillation is and has been used very effectively and efficiently as a weed barrier, and ground enhancer.
The weed barrier side has to be done at the right time, BUT this stuff is allowed on organic farms (and you know how much a stickler they can be).
The ground enhancer as I call it cause it's not fertilizer in the sense of directly adding to the soil, but does give back the micro-nutrients even one forgets about, plus the worms seem to like it too  .
I pour my left-overs onto our summer/fall now sleeping soil to winter over and break via the natural cycle. I yet to use artificial fertilizers since I started and the worms are about as big as a small garden snake.

Take a bow my friend!
I believe your state as the highest number of E85 fuel stations too.
Bruce S
   

[ChrisOlson]

I believe your state as the highest number of E85 fuel stations too.

I don't know - I think Minnesota has more E85 stations than we got.  But we can buy E85 at the pump in town for $2.46/gallon.  Regular gas is $3.89 right now.  There's no Federal Excise tax on the E85, and no state tax on it.

There's a lot of people around here that have bought them Flex Fuel trucks (mostly RAM 1500's).  They all burn E85 in them because it's way cheaper than gas.  And they don't get very much worse mileage with the E85 because them Flex Fuel RAM's bump the ignition timing way up when they're burning it.
--
Chris

[Frank S]

Corn the oldest GMO
In the Beginning

Corn as we know it today would not exist if it weren't for the humans that cultivated and developed it. It is a human invention, a plant that does not exist naturally in the wild. It can only survive if planted and protected by humans.

Scientists believe people living in central Mexico developed corn at least 7000 years ago. It was started from a wild grass called teosinte. Teosinte looked very different from our corn today. The kernels were small and were not placed close together like kernels on the husked ear of modern corn. Also known as maize Indians throughout North and South America, eventually depended upon this crop for much of their food.From Mexico maize spread north into the Southwestern United States and south down the coast to Peru. About 1000 years ago, as Indian people migrated north to the eastern woodlands of present day North America, they brought corn with them.

When Europeans like Columbus made contact with people living in North and South America, corn was a major part of the diet of most native people. When Columbus "discovered" America, he also discovered corn. But up to this time, people living in Europe did not know about corn.

The first Thanksgiving was held in 1621. While sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce and pumpkin pie were not on the menu, Indian corn certainly would have been.

[Mary B]

Wish I could burn E85 but my 2005 Chevy Aveo isn't setup for it.

[Frank S]

In the early days of Ethanol and other mixes used in gasoline there was a lot of unknowns about them, and many vehicles didn't react well. I believe it was 1999 or there about, the wife and I were taking a trip in her little 93 Ford ranger pickup We stopped at a truck stop to gas up in Utah and just as we finished filling the tank the attendant slapped a winter fuel sticker on the pump. Telling about the pump now dispensed the mandatory Utah winter fuel mix. I went to the fuel  desk and demanded a MSDS sheet on the mix it took nearly an hour for the supplier to fax the sheets over with all of the very numerous warnings, possible damages that could be caused to certain vehicles with fuel injection systems Ford and Chrysler were the only 2 American manufactures that listed only a few models that might be damaged.
 GM listed nearly their whole line, some of the foreign makers had several listings.
 the very last page listed several additives that could be used to combat possible damage.
 I thought it was pretty irresponsible for a State to mandate a mix in the gasoline sold in that state without first making sure that information about the additive be supplied to all distributors so folks who might own a vehicle that could be on the list could have access to the information.
  Its the same thing today new additives or higher concentrations are mixed in fuels by mandates or as an alternative to the ever rising gas prices the vehicle owners have to find out on their own if they can use them.
 
 Personally if a new fuel alternative came on the market that could reduce the pump price I don't care if it is corn mash or made politician's mouth flatulence I would run it no matter what it contained as long as I economically offset any possible downside effects.     

[gww]

Chris

So the next time you run into a farmer you tip your hat and address him as "sir" because we ain't a bunch of hayseeds no more.

There was a time when it was fine to be a hayseed.  You could do it and supliment you real income.

I grew up on 80 acres, you could buy a calf at the sale barn for 20 bucks and if you could keep it alive you could either fatten or breed for more.  We kept about 7 cows one bull and maby four or five sows.

Now the pigs are raised in produce plants where there are 50,000 piggs.  Same with chickens and growing corn.  I'm not saying that effeciency is all bad, but the commercials on tv act like everythings still like when I grew up.

Some bodys got to do it, but it's not spead out where its is worth it for a lot of small folks to do it anymore.
Cheers
gww

[ChrisOlson]

Some bodys got to do it, but it's not spead out where its is worth it for a lot of small folks to do it anymore.

That is true.  It is impossible to get started in farming anymore unless you are a member of a farming family and it gets handed down to you.  The costs are simply too great.  To buy one machine like a combine is $550,000 and you don't get a head with it - the head is another $160,000.  And to buy enough land so your new combine has one small field to harvest will cost another quarter million dollars just for a 160 anymore that has premium farmland on it.  And that's up here - go down to Iowa where they really think land is premium for growing corn and beans and that 160 will cost you $850,000.

Not even Bill Gates has enough money to get started in farming anymore on any scale.  And the little guys are all gone.
--
Chris

[Frank S]

 If there would be one thing that I severally detest that would be a keyboard on a laptop
But I won't go into that just now.
 While we are on the subject of corn most will find this corny LOL, Except for maybe Chris O.
 As he had pointed out many threads ago that all corn is planted from seeds bought fresh each year and all corn is hybrid
These are treated for the best possible guarantee of germination and are carefully grown.
 For the urban or home farmer who wishes to grow his own seed corn he can either take his chances, and allow a few ears to stay on the stalks right up to the first frost then shell them and store them for the next year. By taking his chances I mean there  is no telling exactly which variety will be produced the next year and how his yield will be the ear sizes or kernel quality or even if the plants will produce at all.
 OR he can remove the tassels from every 3rd or 4th row of stalks and bag the silks of 1 or 2 of the other rows to prevent inbreeding, he just may wind up with some suitable seeds for the next year he still won't know which hybrid will be the result without years of research  planting one hybrid with another And he will still need to treat them with things like   arsenic powder or nitro-guanidine neonicotinoids or strychnia sulphate ( harmful to bees)or even tobacco  juice will help to ward off insects and small grain eating animals or birds .
  For our ear corn we never planted sweet corn, opting for the larger ears with a much deeper yellow kernel of field or grain corn. Since only 1 in 500 bushels would be used for the dinner table it didn't make any sense to plant 2 types of corn. And since we ground the stalks in with the Milo to make ensilage the 9 to sometimes 12 feet tall stalks just meant that much more feed .
 Corn  is just like raising pigs nothing goes to waste except the squeal or the rustle of the leaves

[Frank S]

That is true.  It is impossible to get started in farming anymore unless you are a member of a farming family and it gets handed down to you.  The costs are simply too great.  To buy one machine like a combine is $550,000 and you don't get a head with it - the head is another $160,000.  And to buy enough land so your new combine has one small field to harvest will cost another quarter million dollars just for a 160 anymore that has premium farmland on it.  And that's up here - go down to Iowa where they really think land is premium for growing corn and beans and that 160 will cost you $850,000.

Not even Bill Gates has enough money to get started in farming anymore on any scale.  And the little guys are all gone.
--
Chris

And not to turn tis into something else if certain factions of nameless world entities do not learn this very soon even the largest of farms will soon be so overloaded even they will not be able to stay in business.
 Sorry I don't mean to start any rants but farming is the one renewable energy that every human being on this planet depends on whether they know it or not

[ChrisOlson]

Sorry I don't mean to start any rants but farming is the one renewable energy that every human being on this planet depends on whether they know it or not

I have a plaque hanging on my office wall.  Every once in awhile I look at it and read what it says to keep things in perspective and remember how how important my job is.  That plaque on my office wall says:

"Man, despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication and many accomplishments, still owes his very existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains"  --Author Unknown

--
Chris

[Bruce S]

Frank S
Yup

ChrisO
The one I have a live by for work's sake is" Take care of your Customer's...OR someone else will.

gww;
The better (somewhat)news Even the city of St Louis is now allowing chickens as backyard "pets". they banned the pot-belly pig or Vietnam pig they have gotten out-of hand and are noisier than chickens.
They still have the 5 pet max for the city, but studies done , show the chicken along with bats are helping to control bug populations. Naturally.
Since I'm currently at the 5 pet limit I"rent" chickens for the lady two blocks away. During the summer she brings them over twice a week I lock up the dogs, and the chicken run around in our backyard.
I built bat houses >? and the mosquito problem around us is now MUCHO  better-O.


 

[ChrisOlson]

While we are on the subject of corn most will find this corny LOL, Except for maybe Chris O.
 As he had pointed out many threads ago that all corn is planted from seeds bought fresh each year and all corn is hybrid

All corn today is genetically engineered organisms.  The seed stock for the next year is grown in a few select locations around the world from parent strains that are developed for certain traits, then de-tasseled and carefully cross bred to produce the seeds.  All modern hybrids only reproduce once  - the second generation is sterile.  So corn as we know it cannot survive in the wild on its own.

This is similar to the "tiger musky", which is a hybrid fish being a cross between a northern pike and a musky.  Tiger muskies occasionally occur in the wild naturally when a male northern pike fertilizes the eggs of a female musky.  But tiger muskies are sterile and cannot reproduce their breed.

Since corn is not a naturally occurring organism, and it has become the single most important item in feeding the world's population, the bulk of the world's food supply now depends on a few special seeds for parent strains that are stored in underground vaults - held by just a few companies on earth (Monsanto being the major one).
--
Chris

[Frank S]

One winter Saturday My Granpa took us kids to the RKO to see a Saturday matinee The first thing you smelled upon entering was popcorn of course we all salivated for a tub of the stuff. He laughed and said since you kids love popcorn so much if you will cleara couple of the meadows that we don't use for grazing and fence them with a 9 wire fence I'll get the older boys to plow and disc them then we will plant ourselves 3 or 4 acres of popcorn and Indian corn.
 after that we planted popcorn in one field and Indian corn in the other switching around each year we always saved our own seeds but soaked them in water and something the day before planting any floaters got tossed into the hog feed.
 Remember this was the early 60s and popcorn is a lot different than dent corn
 Some Indian or flint corn will pop that that will not makes great flour for tortillas. or lightly grind for chicken feed
  The stalks make dry fodder so again noting was wasted 

[ChrisOlson]

  The stalks make dry fodder so again noting was wasted

We do not take our stalks off the field.  They contain all the potash that the corn plant pulls out of the ground.  We have a German-made Geringhoff stalk destruction corn head on the combine that cuts the stalks into pieces so they decay faster and put the potash back in the dirt - and we use minimum tillage practices that leave adequate ground cover (from ground up stalks) to preserve moisture in the dirt, and prevent wind and water erosion when the new crop is planted.  We do not even own a moldboard plow.

We bought the Geringhoff stalk destruction head a few years ago before they became popular in the US, and were not sure it would make it here in time for harvest that year.  It came from Germany and sat in Customs for six weeks out in Baltimore.  It got here two days before we were ready to start corn harvest.

These are the best corn headers on earth for combines - and they are not cheap:

--
Chris

[Harold in CR]

 So then, for someone who is growing a small plot of corn for chicken feed, is Indian corn a hybrid ?

 Down here you buy "tall corn" and "short corn" 

 I messed around with Distilling Milo, back in the mid 70's, during that ARAB embargo fiasco. Then, price of gasoline took a big drop, naturally.  Same thing is happening right now, holding up the switch to EV's. 

 From what I can remember, Indian (multi colored) corn, makes decent ears. My problem lies with the neighbors not giving a damn about their animals getting through the fence, so, I have told them all, I know how to butcher, and, I shoot once in a while, as a reminder. 

 Them Racoons don't seem to understand, though.    I need to get ready to plant VERY soon. Rainy season is about on us.

[Frank S]

Yes al lot has changed since the ways of the 60s
 We had huge silage pits dug near the fields.
 The silage was used to 2 things either as a feed supplement for the cattle through the winters then all barnyard scrapings and left over hay would be tilled into the older pits which would compost for a year. We had a huge tiller  that was about 6 ft in diameter and as long as the width of the pits it wasn't powered just hooked to 2 D8 cats one on each ed they drove along the sides of the pit and drug the tiller back and forth until it would eventually sink completely to the bottom this loosened the silage and mixed in the barnyard and hay. this might be done 2 or 3 times during the summer the next winter that would be dug up and spread on the fields using an old manure spreader then a tractor pulling a 20 ft wide disc would crisscross the field several times
 Not nearly as productive as the big farms up north did it but it worked for us. grandpa also used the plant and fallow method of farming as well.along with little to no irrigation on most fields at least not our fields in Texas. My Uncles farms in CO and OK all had wells or rivers to get their water  We had only what was provided by nature since 90% of our land was leased he wouldn't spend the money to drill wells on land he didn't own.

[Frank S]

So then, for someone who is growing a small plot of corn for chicken feed, is Indian corn a hybrid ?

 Down here you buy "tall corn" and "short corn" 

 I messed around with Distilling Milo, back in the mid 70's, during that ARAB embargo fiasco. Then, price of gasoline took a big drop, naturally.  Same thing is happening right now, holding up the switch to EV's. 

 From what I can remember, Indian (multi colored) corn, makes decent ears. My problem lies with the neighbors not giving a damn about their animals getting through the fence, so, I have told them all, I know how to butcher, and, I shoot once in a while, as a reminder. 

 Them Racoons don't seem to understand, though.    I need to get ready to plant VERY soon. Rainy season is about on us.

Indian corn is not what you could call table ready corn. the kernels are too hard to eat and does not taste like  sweet corn or field corn it contains much less moisture. unless you like elote ( boiled green corn) forget it.
 If you are looking for corn to make tortillas then that is the corn for you.
  and yes at one time or another it has been hybrid-ed but not always to the point of being sterile. The problem is all corn plants are both male and female if allowed to self polenate the seeds will not reproduce beyond the 1st or possibly 2nd year

[ChrisOlson]

Indian corn is not what you could call table ready corn. the kernels are too hard to eat

Indian corn is just a hard starch, or flint corn.  Many dent corns are bred from flint parents  - one of my favorites is Dekalb DKC36-34.  We grow at least 40-50 acres every year and mill it for beef cattle and our pigs - and for ourselves.  We also sell the corn meal by the 100 lb sack to people.

My wife makes corn bread muffins out of it - and there's nothing better than corn bread with butter and honey or maple syrup on it.
--
Chris

[Bruce S]

Stuff like this that has gone to the worms and some extra stuff is what my new MASH mixes use.
I can get it free or nearly free has helped lower my Alky costs once again, even less goes into the landfill.

ChrisO;
Ya gotta use REAL Butter, not the added to-it stuff.
For Kicks, the wife will chop up some of our dehydrated Jalapenos and add to mix before cooking.
Yummmmmm

[electrondady1]

the ethanol plant in the next town over has gone into receivership due to high corn prices. i was surprised.
 the place was built in the late '60s and made whisky until very recently.
so is ordinary sweet corn you buy on the side of the road genetically messed up?
and sterile?

[midwoud1]

Corn harvesting cow fodder. Netherlands
The design is partly develloped by the contractor.
He has a big drying plant as well. Will Hartog was in his young days a famous motor coureur.
Has a good feeling for improving his technics.
Hook on and hook off containers.Working on wet land.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jODiHP0_Ac0&feature=player_detailpage

Rgds  - Frans -

[ChrisOlson]

Sweet corn is identical to field corn, except that it is actually a mutation that prevents the conversion of sugar to starch in the endosperm.

All sweet corn varieties are hybrids and are man-made.  They are not "genetically messed up".  They are genetically engineered thru the careful cross-breeding of different strains with specific traits to get what we have today.

Many hybrids today have specific genes injected into them with what's known as a "gene gun".  This is how we got genetically engineered hybrids and varieties that are "Roundup Ready", meaning they will metabolize glyphosate herbicides that kill weeds growing right next to them.  Other genes are injected as well, including the Bt gene that give the plant the ability to kill insect pests that try to eat it.

All corn is genetically engineered.  There is nothing "natural" about it.
--
Chris

[Frank S]

We grow at least 40-50 acres every year and mill it for beef cattle and our pigs - and for ourselves.  We also sell the corn meal by the 100 lb sack to people.
Chris

You did mention that you have a 200 ton roller mill. nothing in the world is like being able to have and do things or yourself .
 Chris what kind of dryer setup to you have if you don't mind telling.
 One of these days I am going to have to make a trip up to visit you.
 you've been living what I ignorantly avoided for the past 40 years,or I should say stupidly, because I did know better, that and I was married to a high maintenance city girl for the first 20 of those 40 

[Frank S]

All sweet corn varieties are hybrids and are man-made.  They are not "genetically messed up".  They are genetically engineered thru the careful cross-breeding of different strains with specific traits to get what we have today.
All corn is genetically engineered.  There is nothing "natural" about it.
--
Chris

and has been for 7000 years some archaeological studies say possibly 80,000 years long before man even had the knowledge to plant seeds much less selectively cross bred strains to produce ear corn if it weren't for gene manipulation corn of today might be nothing more than Teosinte a wild grass which  is believed where corn originated

[Frank S]

this gives a brief history of one such thought
http://www.nativetech.org/cornhusk/cornhusk.html

This explains in more depth
http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/agron212/readings/corn_history.htm

[ChrisOlson]

You did mention that you have a 200 ton roller mill. nothing in the world is like being able to have and do things or yourself .
 Chris what kind of dryer setup to you have if you don't mind telling.

We also have a 100 hp Slater hammer mill.  We use the hammer mill with a 1/4" screen for corn because it has to be ground to a fine powder (meal).  We use the roller miller for small grains and soybeans because you want those coarser so they're harder for the animal to digest.

We have a M-C continuous flow grain dryer.  It is fired by natural gas.  We have a high pressure interstate gas pipeline running under and across our land to the City.  A few years ago we tapped into it and buried a gas line to the dryer.  We used to fire the dryer with LP gas and that was a pain.  We had a 5,000 gallon LP tank and it would only last two days.  The natural gas works better.  The gas jet in the burner on the dryer is just a 1 1/2" pipe plug with a 1" hole drilled in it.  So we just have to call the gas company in the fall before we start the dryer so they crank up the pressure on the line over in Minnesota - otherwise the City runs out of gas. 

We're going to get a new dryer this year.  Ours has a 50 hp axial fan on it and it's louder than hell  - 130 dB(a) @ 200 feet from it when the burner is going.  We're going to get one with two small burners because those run alot quieter.  It gets tiring listening to the thunder from that frickin' thing for six weeks in the fall.  It makes the ground shake and rattles the windows in the house.  A 7.5 million BTU fire with a 50 horse fan blowing on it is a dang big fire.
--
Chris

[Isaiah]

Well I'm glad to see someone found something to do with that GMO stuff.
 The GMO grains are not  to to ingested by humans or animals and we don't know what by products  do to the environment ,humans or animals both from the fuel and the waste. This stuff may very well be why we see young people developing before their time.
 We do know that the ethanol is the manic's best friend.
That is the stuff that eats up the lines and diaphragm,s  in your  equipment.
 Chain saw's snowmobiles  boat motors seasonal machines its death to them when you let them set.
 If the ethanol is let sit long enough to eat the finish off the inside of the carburetors and fuel pump they are junk, you can clean them but they corrode back soon.
 Some of other country's went in and if they found GMO plants they burned them.
Stop by your local health food store and ask about GMO Products.
 BTW Russia just banned import of U.S. beef and poultry due to additives.

[XeonPony]

wow wrong on so many levels.

All most all food is gmo, either by selective breeding or by more direct means now days. Once the digestive system is don with it doesn't mater how the genes where arranged as they are ripped apart to their bare components

Ethanol does no real damage to the engine, it is the water it attracts combined with less additives that they used to use due to environmental concerns. Methanol is a whole other story it is very aggressive with the Alkalie metals

Try asking a scientist what they think rather then a place with an agenda.

[niall2]

http://naturalsociety.com/hungary-destroys-all-monsanto-gmo-corn-fields/

not sure about the link ......but how can you have a seed that actively poisons insects ?

[ChrisOlson]

The GMO grains are not  to to ingested by humans or animals and we don't know what by products  do to the environment ,humans or animals both from the fuel and the waste. This stuff may very well be why we see young people developing before their time.
 We do know that the ethanol is the manic's best friend.

Don't forget the boogie man.  He comes out at night and he's really, really bad.
--
Chris