Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 80368 times)

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thirteen

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2015, 09:38:43 PM »
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13
MntMnROY 13

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #121 on: November 22, 2015, 10:28:43 PM »
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13

There is no key on the big pulley/sheave. It uses a taper lock device made by Ringfeder of Germany.The generator uses a standard taper lock with a key on the shaft.

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.

There will be no cover over the drive assembly. At least nothing planned yet...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2015, 04:07:39 PM »
I installed the generator and lined up both pulleys. I used the ringfeder to lock the big pulley onto the shaft (1st picture). Went to put the belts on and found I made a mistake in length. I need shorter belts and will have to return the longer ones. Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare, and have to splice my power cable. That's likely as far as I will get this year. The weather here has cooled off and the ground is frozen. Once things warm up in a few months I'll trench the cable and dig a bigger foundation.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 04:15:18 PM by skid »

hiker

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2015, 01:21:58 AM »
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...
WILD in ALASKA

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #124 on: December 04, 2015, 12:58:21 PM »
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Turtle, losing weight
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2015, 12:01:31 AM »
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Thanks Keith Turtle,

For sure I have thought of that. It would also save on the generator front bearing not being side loaded with the belt. However the center pivot mount with the hydraulics will get in the way.

I had an engineering friend run a few calculations and the 12" pipe will be heavily loaded with the weight of everything as well as the twisting from the counterweights. I had to beef up the pipe in the area of the center pivot by inserting it into the heavy wall center mount pipe. But it will work according to him...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2015, 12:10:45 AM »
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...

That's a good idea, and as you say will save many small adjustments in the future and prevent damaging the belts from slippage. Once I get this thing working I may just do that...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2016, 07:47:32 PM »
I installed all 11 counterweights, hung them on the boom, and installed the end cap. Also installed the belts, tensioned them and tightened up the generator mount. The only thing left on the boom assembly is to install the 12V hydraulic power unit so I can adjust the wheel elevation as the river level changes, tube in 2 grease lines for the wheel bearings so I can grease them from shore and give it a final paint job. I just used whatever metal paint I had laying around for now.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 07:58:46 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2016, 08:29:22 PM »
I erred when I mentioned that V belts were mentioned in millimeters. :-[ They are measured in inches... I ended up requiring 8V3000 belts which are 300 inches long in circumference. Darn metric system here keeps messing me up... >:( That and my old timers...;D

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #129 on: March 02, 2016, 05:07:50 AM »
Hello Skid,

How is your project? Have you been doing some advancement from you last post?

Keep up the good work!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2016, 09:47:42 PM »
Andrei,

I've done a few things, but mostly background stuff as it has been relentlessly raining in the PNW until the last couple of days.

I purchased a12V hydraulic pump, fittings, and battery to raise/lower the wheel - now I need to determine how to mount everything as the pump will need to be protected from our heavy rains.

I've got most of my permitting in place from 3 levels of gov't - What a hassle that's been. I had to get a qualified environmental professional to write reports for both municipal, provincial and federal regulators. Luckily I know some people in the field so some of the work was done gratis, bit I still had to shell out cash regardless as they had to write very in depth reports (potential for killing fish during all life stages whether resident fish like trout or anadromous fish like salmon, erosion, loss of fish habitat, obstruction of a navigable waterway, installation of structures below the high water mark, construction access and hazards, etc., etc.).

The last couple of days I have been hand trenching and spliced the power cable that will connect to the waterwheel. I had to hand trench around my house, under a side walk, around all the trees and shrubs, and through two lockblock retaining walls. The hot tub felt good on my aching back last night... Now I can rent a power trencher and do rest to the river (approx. 80 meters).

Once the weather gets better I'll complete the waterwheel and start again on the foundation. I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well. I still have to by a couple of disconnects, a 30 Amp thermal breaker,  and other electrical bits. I hope to have everything in place and running by the end of summer...

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2016, 10:20:42 PM »
While you've got the trench open, lay some extra conduit.  (You can tie a cotton ball or a puff of tissue to a piece of twine and blow a pilot for a pull line down it later.)  Then, if something fails, or you want to add some instrumentation, you don't have to dig things up again.

(This is like the "Dark Fiber" phenomenon in telecom, where something like 95% of the buried fiber is "dark".  It's spares.  Most of the cost of a build-out is digging the trench around the country and back-and-forth across it.  While you've got it open, it costs you only a few percent more to lay a whole BUNCH of fiber (and several parallel runs of empty contuit), for the next century's expansion.  MUCH cheaper than only installing what you need for the next three years and then digging up the country again.)

Lay a water pipe or two, also.  If you have the flow for a poncelet you also have the flow or bit of head needed to run a hydraulic ram and pump river water up an arbitrary amount of hill for watering your lawn (or whatever else it's good for).  With the pipe in you can install the ram when/if you have/get the right to use the river water for some useful purpose (if you don't have it already).  (Meanwhile you can use the pipe to bring down water from your current supply for hand-washing, site cleanup, drinking at the site, etc.)

If you've already closed things up between the house and where the trench will start, just run the conduit/pipe/etc to the near end of the trench, cap it off, bury it, but make sure there's a way to locate it again later, if/when you have the time and circumstance to finish the run and use it for something.  And if you never get around to it, you're only out a little.  Conduit and pipe are cheap.  A trench is a terrible thing to waste.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2016, 01:59:50 AM »
ULR you are absolutely right about laying in extra cable and pipe when a trench is open. This is my second trench to the river now; the first was for my 3" PVC irrigation piping which I'll probably hit when I'm digging my waterwheel trench ::) 

I won't run power out there (which I'll probably regret) but will run 6 wire instrumentation cable for a future camera and maybe a river level sensor. I will have 12V battery power  with a 20W solar charger to operate the hydraulic pump...

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #133 on: April 14, 2016, 11:32:24 PM »
I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well.

Good thought; maybe even bigger.  Like the open trench, a few extra yards of cement with some more depth to the base will be cheap insurance, given the consequence failure will present.

The persistent power of high flow is hard to estimate, especially for extended periods of time.

Keep up the good work

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2016, 11:27:32 PM »
I haven't posted anything new for a while, but have been getting the final pieces for my grid tie inverter wiring. I now have a 3 phase thermal breaker rated at 16.7 to 20 amps (generator output is 18), surge arrestors, a 30 amp disconnect, and some other bits and pieces. I'm waiting for a couple of Teck cable connectors from ebay and i'll finish the tie in to my breaker box. I'll wire it similar to this wind turbine without the single phase stop switch at the turbine to brake it...


David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2016, 06:53:33 AM »
Skid,

Just a curiosity question, but have you got everything sorted out with the utility company for the grid tie arrangement?

Likewise, your insurance cover.

Dave

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2016, 12:39:19 AM »
I have to meet the Canadian Electrical Code and must use UL or CSA components on the grid tie equipment which my ABB inverter meets. I have passed the wiring diagram in my last post by the local electrical inspector who has approved it. He will inspect it before going live. Doing that meets the criteria of my provincial utility. As far as insurance, as long as I meet electrical code I'm covered...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2016, 05:17:42 PM »
Terminated the 6 gauge cable from the waterwheel generator into the thermal breaker today, and installed 1 of the surge arrestors in the wind box. Need to get another couple more tech connectors to complete the wiring. The photo shows how I have mounted the inverter and other equipment onto my house near the breaker box.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2016, 08:18:35 PM »
Rented a trencher today and trenched the power cable for the waterwheel from my retaining wall to my property line. Due to regulations around instream work I cannot work below the high water mark until after August 15 when salmon fry are no longer in the river. I'll dig more into the river bank (with an excavator this time!) and prepare the concrete forms in late August. Hopefully I can have the wheel operational later this fall...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 08:23:57 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2016, 08:29:54 PM »
Found my PVC irrigation pipe too! The trencher chain went right through it. >:( :o :P

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2016, 12:21:21 AM »
Good to see progress. Before long the vision will be realized

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2016, 03:37:15 PM »
I haven't done anything in a while as I have been waiting for the gov'ts blessing and license of occupation and water license. It looks like everything is a go, but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.

I have to pay about $750 for the application and License of Occupation (LOO) for my 3x2 meter concrete pad, as I only own land to the high water mark. The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river. I also have to put down a $5k deposit to ensure that when I relinquish the land and hand it back to the gov't I will restore it to its natural state. The LOO is good for 30 years.  I also have to get commercial liability insurance with 2mil minimum coverage. Don't know what that will cost yet :-\

In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use. Since it is low head I use lots of water. My license fees will be ~$750/year minimum. In also have to do an operational assessment for the first year of running, which means hiring a biologist to determine whether it is harmful to aquatic life.

All for 9.9 cents/kilowatt hour which is what the utility will pay me. I hope to average 2kw over the year so I will make a little over $2k annually. Discouraging... I should have went with solar... However I am pretty committed at this point and will see it through. Hopefully I can sell one of my kids for the $5k deposit to get things rolling again ;D

frackers

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2016, 07:06:20 PM »
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2016, 03:43:31 AM »
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.

I was thinking the same thing myself.
If you were " using"  the water, where would it be going or ending up?  If you installed 100 waterwheels, how much water would be removed from the river and therefore available for other people?

I thought the idea of a water licence was to keep control of the amount of water people were taking from the river so the thing wasn't sucked dry.
In the case of " what if everyone had a water wheel?"  Then the river still wouldn't be affected at all!

I realise this is a another revenue raiser but I'd be doing all I could to throw it right back at them.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2016, 01:47:47 PM »
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..


Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #145 on: August 21, 2016, 09:41:18 PM »
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #146 on: August 22, 2016, 04:38:34 AM »
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!

I agree.
I never take the illogical decisions of one power tripper as gospel.  Over and over again in my life I have found that so many of these rules of large entity's are made up by the person you talk to as they go along.  Ask someone else and you get a totally different answer. Do not take the answer of one person without verifying it with another.
I would want to be seeing the rules and regulations for a start and then seeing if they even added up.

I would also be pushing the greenwashed, save the planet angle for all it was worth to your advantage. Start crying about them being anti green and environmentalism and you are just trying to provide renewable energy and that sort of line and it may be enough.

If you don't get anywhere, then I'd look at selling the amount of water you are supposedly " Using" to someone else who actually takes the water for irrigation etc. Let them measure how much you have consumed and then try to argue that in court.

David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #147 on: August 22, 2016, 04:51:55 AM »
Yes, you could say that the water is not being used, but it is being harnessed. It is also not consumed by animal, bird or human in another context.

I suspect clever lawyers could find your case very interesting.

I wonder how massive dam owners get on with this sort of situation. Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example. I suppose they provide power to the public grid whereas you're providing power to your self. Could you share any excess power that you might generate?

Regards,

Dave in Hong Kong

joestue

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2016, 03:19:31 AM »
Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example

they are grandfathered in, i really don't know of any new major dams that have been built anywhere in the usa, and many have been torn down rather than rebuilt.

we have "salmons" streams in washington state that are dry 9 months out of the year, and always have been as long as anyone can remember.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2016, 10:53:45 PM »
but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.


Government cannot give money to anyone, but that they first take it away from someone else.

Too bad you must fund [...]

I like David's take on it

Turtle
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