Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 80333 times)

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electrondady1

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #150 on: August 26, 2016, 08:55:42 AM »
quantitative easing is a term that every one should become familiar with .
they ran out of ideas on how to stimulate the economy. so in the U.S. and europe, central banks print money and give it to their friends.
well, they don't really print it. it just shows up on computer screens inside other banks.
it's helicopter money
of course, it is real debt and the next generation must pay it back . but not the banksters.
 they buy real estate.

 

12AX7

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #151 on: August 26, 2016, 07:40:48 PM »
Hello!

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

The highest point on my lot is still seven feet below local flood plain.


David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #152 on: August 28, 2016, 01:22:30 AM »
This story is peculiarly interesting.

Let’s look at some more simple aspects.

A person owns a piece of land which includes a stream arriving at point A and leaving at point B on the property. But who owns the water? The water is flowing in at A and out at B and never stops. (Exclude freezing for the purpose of the argument). Flowing water is not really a tangible thing which makes it difficult to argue about.

Underground water which can be pumped up for irrigation on private land may actually source from other land so who owns it?

A river flows through a country and touches endless public and private boundaries. Who owns what part of the river bed? Who owns the water?

Other ‘rights’ associate with water such as fishing rights. Who owns the fish as they could be swimming anywhere – upstream, downstream and so on.

In previous notes the word ‘use(s)’ is mentioned as a basis for calculations. This has now become a simplistic word in a very complicated society. Renewable energy is not so new but more and more people are tinkering with it.

Perhaps this note will attract some interesting responses.

David

zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #153 on: August 28, 2016, 01:39:54 PM »
Very broad questions that would have different answers based on the location. What would be interesting is hearing more updates from the OP about his project.

zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2016, 01:52:19 PM »
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..

Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2016, 11:51:05 PM »


Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?
[/quote]

My annual electrical bill is around $2500/year

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

My lot corner pins are located at the high water mark of the river bank. Apparently that is how they survey lots in British Columbia. The river is down the bank approx. 10 feet down and 25 feet away from the pins. That is considered Crown Land owned by the provincial gov't. For me to place a structure  on it I have to get a License of Occupation. The high water mark is basically when the river is bank full and ready to flood onto the flood plain.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2016, 11:57:52 PM »
Still moving forward:

Today I completed wiring the inverter into my house panel. Need to get that inspected by the electrical inspector now.

The next item to complete is installing the hydraulic pump onto the wheel support structure. I'll hopefully complete that sometime this week as I have all the parts except the hoses which I'll make up once I place everything in position.

That's about as far as I can go until I get my licenses. Once I get the licenses I will form the concrete pad and pour it and install the wheel. Sounds easy ;)

Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2016, 08:49:13 AM »
SKID;
Thank you for getting this back on the track you started with.
I was just at the point where I thought I "might" have to jump into my GM MODE britches and ask that posters please refrain from political conversations.

PS>>> Glad you're moving forward and getting things sorted out.

Cheers
Bruce S
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zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2016, 02:07:45 PM »
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2016, 07:53:54 PM »
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?

The hydraulic pump will drive the hydraulic cylinder that will raise and lower the wheel in the water. The cylinder has a 3 foot stroke so with it located on the short end of the fulcrum will be able to raise and lower the wheel almost 10 feet. This large range of motion will allow the wheel to clear river elevations even at bank full+ flood heights.

I still haven't attached it  as I have been super busy at work and on my farm, but once I do I'll get pictures of it.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2016, 08:30:05 AM »
Hello Skid,

Just curious, how's the project advancing?

Cheers!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2016, 02:16:19 PM »
It's been two years since I applied, but I finally received my License of Occupation and my Conditional Water license which is the gov't's blessing to proceed with the project. Unbelievably there are still additional conditions which I must meet before I proceed.

I must send the "Water Manager" (which is the name of the gov't position which grants the license):
a) Plans for the works to be constructed signed and sealed by a professional engineer,
b) Schedule for the construction of the works,
c) Name and contact information for the appointed construction level environmental monitor,
d) Operational Environmental monitoring plan (OEMP) designed by a qualified environmental professional biologist to assess the impacts of the water wheel on juvenile salmonid out migration.

Once I get the wheel operational there are further items which I must complete within one year including:
1) Summary of the (OEMP)
2) Operating Parameters and Procedures Report (basically maintenance checks, flood management, etc.)
3) receive final leave of operations.

They sure aren't making things easy. The good news is that the licenses are good for my lifetime (30 and 40 years respectively) and are transferrable. I also have engineering and biologist contacts which I can use for hopefully reasonable costs.


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2016, 08:01:49 PM »
You certainly have more patience than I but can't say more than that for fear of being chastised for being " Political".

How much to you envisage this project saving you on power a year and what do you estimate the payback time on your investment?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #163 on: January 02, 2017, 02:29:34 PM »
I'll have a better idea of the payback once I get it into the water and see how it works. I'm pretty sure I'll cover my own electrical needs. How much I'll export is the question.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2017, 08:32:48 AM »
Hello Skid,

Any news regarding your project? The time really passes and i'd love to hear more recent news  :)

Cheers,

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2017, 06:49:05 PM »
It's been a while, but I have some good news. The gov't regulators gave me the go ahead to install the wheel. The problem is they gave it to me too late in the spring and now the freshet is on with river levels so high I can't install my foundation. Once the freshet subsides, hopefully in a month or so, I'll complete the foundation and install the wheel.

It's unfortunate as river flows are high and steady and I could probably be making full production right now.

I still have a couple of things to complete. The hydraulic system for one which will take me a day, and the final underground splice on my power cable from the river to my house. I'm watching ebay for a 6 AWG armored cable kit so I don't have to pay retail for one. I hope to have those completed in July.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2017, 07:00:36 PM »
The other good news for me is that the regulator has reclassified this project as a commercial project instead of a home generation project. Amazingly this will cost me only $105 in annual water license fees instead of the $1500 I was facing before. This may help return the cost of this before I die ::)

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2017, 11:13:47 PM »

I don't understand how a commercial classification can be cheaper than a domestic one but I am glad their stupidity has finally turned in your favour.
The whole thing of charging you for using the water was ridiculous to start with.  They will come up with any BS to get money no matter how illogical the reasoning.

I look forward to seeing further updates and some vids of the thing when it is running.

Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #168 on: July 03, 2017, 09:32:11 AM »
skid;
You might go looking for Welder's cable.

There have been many posts on here about using that with 1/2 the costs, and same power handling abilities ;-)

Very nice project ! I look forward to the next set of posts too.
Bruce S
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2017, 11:44:25 PM »
skid;
You might go looking for Welder's cable.

There have been many posts on here about using that with 1/2 the costs, and same power handling abilities ;-)

Very nice project ! I look forward to the next set of posts too.
Bruce S

Thanks Bruce,

I have enough cable, it's just that because of the total length (around 200 Meters), I have to install a couple of splices. I got the cable for free - three ~75 meter pieces left over from a underground power line project from work.

It's actually a bit of overkill as it is 5kv rated armored wire, and the Raychem splice kits are expensive if I buy retail. I've installed one already and just bought one from ebay for $100 so I'm good to go now.

I was going to mount the hydraulics that raise and lower the wheel on the water wheel frame, but have now decided to mount the hydraulic pump/battery and solar panel remotely on a nearby panel and run longer hoses to the hydraulic ram on the frame.

In addition I'm going to install 3 voltage/amperage gauges with CT's to measure amperage and voltage on each phase in the same panel so I can optimize the depth of the wheel for maximum output when testing and when river levels change. I've got an outdoor rated enclosure, and just have to install the components and make a frame to mount it on.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #170 on: July 12, 2017, 09:57:54 PM »
Earlier this week I had an excavator clear a path to the river to allow cement trucks to get to the site to pour the concrete and to allow moving the works to install once the foundation is complete. One of the conditions of the water license was getting a professional engineer to design the foundation. The foundation will require about 14 cubic meters of concrete (3x3x1.5 meters) which is about two trucks worth, and will be keyed into the river bank as originally planned.

Today I started to mock up the hydraulics for raising/lowering the wheel. I am repurposing a nice water tight electrical enclosure for the hydraulic motor/reservoir, the battery and solar panel, as well as the electronics that will measure the output of the generator. I'm still waiting for my ammeters from ebay but can mount the motor/reservoir and battery as well as the hard piping. It will be a little tight, and if I have to add oil I will need to use a syringe as the fill cap will be right at the top. This is the only way I can get it to work and the enclosure was free.

 

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2017, 07:50:32 PM »
Plumb a fill cap onto the top of the enclosure. Use a fitting with rubber gaskets so it doesn't let water in.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #172 on: July 22, 2017, 01:35:20 PM »
Received my splice kit from ebay yesterday. Missing a key piece of course. Have contacted the seller so hopefully can get the right piece sent so I can complete the splice. Still waiting for my ammeters so I can complete my remote mounted enclosure. I've welded supports and mounted the pump and battery and most of the hard piping on the panel that gets installed in the enclosure.

Mary, Regarding cutting a hole in the top of the enclosure, I'll use a mechanic's syringe that are used to add oil to differentials and such.

Pic of the panel so far:




skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2017, 05:07:37 PM »
Completed the last splice today. Organizing an excavator to dig into the riverbank. Finishing up my control skid as well. Getting closer...


skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2017, 10:40:21 PM »
River bank is now excavated. The foundation is now to be 10'L x 10'W x5'T as designed by the engineer. There will be approx. 75000 pounds of concrete. So much for disturbing the river bank as little as possible. It is what the gov't wanted though, and I don't believe I will have any issues due to the size of foundation.

I've started building the forms, and have received 1000 feet of 20mm rebar. Once the forms are complete, I'll build the rebar cage. The engineer spec'ed the rebar mat to be every 10 inches Length x Width x Sides.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #175 on: August 25, 2017, 11:02:47 PM »
While I had the excavator handy I had him move the water wheel assembly close to the river. Now I don't have to worry about my wife driving into it ;D

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #176 on: August 28, 2017, 04:14:27 PM »
Forms are mostly up. I'll do more reinforcing as I am concerned with the river side of the forms. The other 3 sides can be backfilled  a bit to support the forms but the river side cannot. The back corners are chamfered to clear the counter weight.

I'll use some heavy stainless wire to go from one side of the form to the other to help prevent the river side form from failing.When I pour the concrete I will also order a low slump mix and do small lifts at a time, and not go crazy with the vibrator.

Now to start cutting rebar...

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #177 on: August 28, 2017, 08:28:48 PM »
If want to skin it, now is the time.  Some materials like beaded foam (EPS) sticks rather well to concrete.  You can use it like drivit to put a pretty pebble-faced exterior facing out and adhere it to the inside of your pour.  If done in panels you can move them easy enough.  The best part, the exterior sides can be made waterproof.  Looks much prettier than concrete.

Are you driving pilings to keep it from moving off the bank?  The mass of the wheel and the water's inertia is going to shift it over time.  Pilings and anchor wires/chains back to the shore bank I'm assuming are in your plans.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #178 on: August 29, 2017, 01:15:15 AM »
Are you driving pilings to keep it from moving off the bank?  The mass of the wheel and the water's inertia is going to shift it over time.  Pilings and anchor wires/chains back to the shore bank I'm assuming are in your plans.

No pilings or other anchors. It will be keyed into the river bank  on the up hill side and the sides. The river bank is mostly large rocks tightly packed with dirt and tree roots.  At 10 feet square and five feet high with a weight of 75000 pounds I don't think it will go anywhere.

 In a couple years after back filling the tree roots will wrap around the foundation and help hold it in place (I'll throw some fertilizer in the back fill to encourage this). Even the 320 Cat excavator had to work at digging the foundation trying to break through the tree roots and tightly packed rocks.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #179 on: September 11, 2017, 03:13:21 PM »
The pipe that supports everything will be embedded in the concrete foundation with only 4 inches below the pipe flange exposed. I'll also fill it with concrete when I do the pour.

The engineer has specified that anti rotation rebar pins be welded into place. Now to install it into the form...