Restoration of a 150 year old Barn.

[Bruce S]

Ruddy,
IF Clockman don't mind  we  don't mind!
I agree with what he's posted. I no pointer by any stretch of the imagination , but I've learnt a few tricks and his posts show most.
The angle grinder was what I started with and quickly found out why NOT to use one.
Best
Bruce S

[MattM]

It would have been a great time to install insulation between vertical slats.  The aluminum faced moisture guard felt would have acted as a radiant barrier, too, since your horizontal slats create an air gap.  If you were worried about moisture drainage, you could have kept the insulation thinner than your slats.  Metal roofs typically use 1/4" of air gap under the panels.

[clockmanFRA]

Hi MattM,

When finished this Barn/Lecture Theatre will be to Passive House standard.

With old buildings I build a new building inside, therefore minimal loading on the original building. So my new thermal block walls will support a new internal roof frame. This frame is lightweight as it supports itself and the plaster ceiling.

Here is the Old Medieval, (mostly 1700's), Long Barn, inside upstairs.



The thermal block walls support the first floor/upstairs and continue up to finally support the new roof/ceiling frame. I allow a space between the new frame and the old building for about 450mm, 18 inches of Insulation, the glass fibre stuff which is made here from re-constituted glass.

  



And that barn upstairs room bit finished...........

[MattM]

The advantage to insulation under a radiant barrier is keeping the heat delta off direct contact materials.  Your slate gives you a hotside off the insulation, but your airgap isn't stopping radiation with felt  underlayment.  You also have two airgaps, the second being the rolls of fiberglass.  When hot meets cold you get condensation.  Your two airgaps will hopefully not have too much difference or the fiberglass is getting soaked over time, and with the moisture barrier paper underneath, there is where it's going to collect.

Look into cathedral ceiling insulation standards before you get too far.  I don't want to sound negative, it's just one of those situations you want to avoid with all the readily available data out there now.

[clockmanFRA]

Its always difficult with Old buildings getting the moisture traps/leaks sorted and it takes a fair bit of time getting it right and can be extremely fiddly.

Thanks for the 'Cathedral ceiling Insulations'.

Okay my normal plan............Slate, 50mm Air gap exterior venting, (here we use 1 inch thick lath on 1 inch thick up lath), Breathable membrane, wood close boarding with 15mm air gap cross flow, then 75mm to 100mm air gap the up joists, a Insulation/vapour barrier (but not defined yet as depends on the local conditions and venting possibilities), 50mm air gap to my new frame work insulation, then 200mm fiberglass insulation roll, 200mm fiberglass roll diagonal to first, 75mm to 100mm fiberglass batts cut for correct fitting into new ceiling frame, 14mm plasterboard with finish.  No down lighters, ceiling is sealed.

My supporting walls will be over 600mm/ 24 inches thick, so good space for sorting out the eves insulation properly.

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate and more Insulation, I love the stuff.

[clockmanFRA]

And the slates start to go on....... just 2,300 off, and 4,600 copper clout nails........



Drill jig set up for 6 slates at a time with the holes spot on.
The table disc cutter very quickly cuts the slate to exact size for the angled roof ends etc.

 

[sean_ork]

Foil backed plasterboard ?

[MattM]

You have great detail in your pictures.  In your starter row, with the partial slate piece, do they not use a drip edge / leaf in your part of the world?  Half round gutter needs all the help it can get to catch water.

Normally in the states we use drip edge / leaf metal to do two things, guide water and to prevent wind uplift.  We also use style D ridge metal on gable ends to prevent wind uplift.  Using a J channel on top ridge metal gives a sharp detail on a gable, too.

[clockmanFRA]

Ruddycrazy,  heres a bit of my re-pointing lime mortar and bricks, and I am using the injection and smooth systems I talked about earlier.

Its rural here so we need satellite dishes, but I live in hope that technological improvements will replace the ugly equipment.

Hmm! must finish the whole wall/gable end so it looks uniform.

MattM, A traditional French Normandy house (1880's) gable end, they use tiles to protect the end up joist, and the wall plate and the main purloins. I use stainless steel screws on those slates that get the weather.

 

[clockmanFRA]

MattM, Modern French houses are slung up super quick with blocks and internal dab on insulation bats.

However, this is Normandy and I have tried to stick to the Ancient traditional styles and methods where I can.

Drip edge never seen it here, maybe in the UK but not here. Gutter boards/fosists are not common in rural areas. As my old joiner used to say, "Gutter boards, fossits etc, keeps me working", but nowadays these are now PVC/plastic with the manufacturers doing 'traditional styles' gota laugh.

Sadly all my old true craftsmen friends, Architect's, real Stone Masons, Bricklayers, Joiners, Cabinet Makers are all dying, but most have been out here and had a good luck see.
Mostly saying, "I, traditional methods," and "you got some work on here boy".
My friend the Cabinet Maker used to say, " Look, If Chippendale would have had marine plywood, he would have b..loody used it".

All the gutters, downpipes here are Zinc, and are still produced at a reasonable price. Lead is not liked/ encouraged by the authorities here.
As original roof methods the tiles have a 2 inch overlap from the wood roof boarding and I get the slates drip to be central just above the top of the 6inch wide zinc gutter.





Again I use zinc ridge covers as traditionally done, I make my own as the French supplied ones are very wide and don't match the old, again I use stainless steel holding screws.
Zinc sheet is  aaagggra horrible to work with as it tears and is problematic when soldering large sheets together, flat roofs etc.

This barn roof has no gable ends.

This is the overhanging roof of the barn Entrance, and yes those main oak beams are in good condition and cantilever just right. Posh look, the small original guttering is still hanging there.



And the other end, not a roof square edge anywhere. 



Still slating.........

[sean_ork]

Perhaps you missed my question about using foil backed plasterboard, let's put it in a slightly different manner.

Matt has tried to make the same point.

In your multi layer insulation scheme, where do you think the dew point will likely be ?

[clockmanFRA]

Foil backed plasterboard is not that good and its always a hassle getting the joints sealed on the foil side.

As I said 'the ceiling will be sealed', ie air tight. What vapour barrier I use on the plasterboard is still not decided yet.

Here in France Hydrofuge plasterboard is a common board, and does seal well and works well in moisture areas, sloping ceilings etc, but again its those joints.

There is also the tonged and grooved ceiling board sandwich structures that have the vapour barrier integral.

I will wait until my block walls are up to wall plate level before making a decision.

[sean_ork]

It's a little late now, but a multifoil negates the need for massive FG thickness and a separate VPL - there's a lot of roofs being ruined here by folks who think more is better (which to some extent is true) - but adding additional absorbent materials without due regard to correct positioning of the VPL will result in soggy insulation, and eventually a rotten roof.

Fortunately cold roofs are effectively banned here, no warrant will be issued if the design includes one.

[dnix71]

When you mentioned "cold roofs" I had to look that up.

In America what you call a cold roof is common an acceptable in many places. Our lumber is pressure treated to prevent rot. What people need to be careful with a cold roof is enough ventilation to prevent water condensing above the insulation.

The second risk is if plumbing is placed in the attic. I lived in Chattanooga, Tennessee for a year in a row of "townhouse" style apartments. The second floor of each unit was open to the first in the front by a wrought iron spiral staircase and the water and sewer was included in the rent. The pipes ran across the attic and down to each unit. The year I lived there one day the outside temps fell to 14F (-10C) and the pipes froze and burst above an unoccupied apartment. That made a mess that was not easy to repair. If the unit had been occupied, there would have been enough heat rising from the unit to prevent freezing.

The heating was all electric (Tennessee Valley Authority / 4 cents a KWH). My electric bill was $10 a month average.

[sean_ork]

What people need to be careful with a cold roof is enough ventilation to prevent water condensing above the insulation.

That's the point, in the situation as described the dew point is likely to be at varying points within the FG.

[clockmanFRA]

All standard Construction timber here in France is pressure treated properly, with real insecticides and anti/rot fungal agents.

Thank goodness the health & safety brigade of the UK are kept well out of France.

Personally speaking sean_ork, your talking rot again.........

[sean_ork]

CM, believe it or not, I'm trying to guide you away from making yet another potentially very costly mistake.

I will now leave it to others to further the point, and yes, I'm talking rot - but it'll be your roof timbers that rot.

Don't worry, you'll get plenty of warning; obviously you are free to ignore me, maybe Mrs CM will ensure you don't ignore the mould that will grow on your ceilings. You'll then find all of innermost FG to be saturated.

My point has nothing to do with H&S, its just simple building health and very basic building standards.

Good luck.

[sean_ork]

CM, have another read of Matts post, he is trying to warn you of the same very likely issue.

The advantage to insulation under a radiant barrier is keeping the heat delta off direct contact materials.  Your slate gives you a hotside off the insulation, but your airgap isn't stopping radiation with felt  underlayment.  You also have two airgaps, the second being the rolls of fiberglass.  When hot meets cold you get condensation.  Your two airgaps will hopefully not have too much difference or the fiberglass is getting soaked over time, and with the moisture barrier paper underneath, there is where it's going to collect.

Look into cathedral ceiling insulation standards before you get too far.  I don't want to sound negative, it's just one of those situations you want to avoid with all the readily available data out there now.

[dnix71]

I noticed that the barn roof doesn't have a tar paper layer. Here in south Florida, the roof will be tongue and groove interlocking slats if you have a ceramic tile roof. The rafters and tongue and groove can support the extra weight over the standard tar paper shingles.

In both cases there is a layer of tar paper on top of the plywood or tongue and groove roof. The overlapping papers laid across the roof are actually what keeps the roof from leaking. When the paper dries out or tears, you have to lift a square of shingles to patch the paper under them before reshingling.

Vapor condensing under the roof wood is still an issue, unless there is some kind of venting. Venting unoccupied attics is common in the south because it makes the roof material last longer and helps stop heat from being transmitted down into living spaces. The building I live in has a slot cut across the length of the crown and covered with a cap. The common name is "Cobra vent."

http://professional-power-tool-guide.com/power-tool-forum/index.php?/topic/5917-cobra-rigid-vent3-ridge-vent/

[clockmanFRA]

Insulation is very controversial, just look at the heated discussions on passive house & insulation on the green building forums in particular where and what are the vapour barriers.

I noted MattM's comments.

Remember this is a building within a building, its a barn it and will be a lecture theatre and a garage for my vehicle etc repairs in comfort, it is not a dwelling.

As I said, I await till I am actually up between the 2 roof structures to see if the ventilation can be controlled or not, and if it can be sealed or not, if another vapour barrier is required and what the distances between will be.

Not sure where you are going sean_ork with your over excited gloom and doom comments. You don't offer much practical suggestions or methods, or defined links, just your usual buy this manufacturers products and your armchair waffling.

So for Forum members reading this, please seek independent advice on your insulation techniques.

Happy now?

[sean_ork]

The correct method of installing insulation, in a manner that keeps a building healthy, isnt a contentious or controversial subject - if you understand the basic principles its very very simple. There's always a healthy debate over which manufacturers product is best suited, however there's no debate over the science.

You've misread what I've posted, there are no product recommendations mentioned, I'm simply trying to encourage you, as are others, to understand what is going to be happening between your layers.

There's no doom or gloom from me, perhaps Matt will be able to convince you - either way, good luck.

[sean_ork]

Vapor condensing under the roof wood is still an issue, unless there is some kind of venting. Venting unoccupied attics is common in the south because it makes the roof material last longer and helps stop heat from being transmitted down into living spaces. The building I live in has a slot cut across the length of the crown and covered with a cap. The common name is "Cobra vent."

We tend not to have issues with keeping roofs cool in our part of the world, but correctly venting them is key to keeping them healthy wherever they are. Vented ridges are common, as are all manner of retrofit soffit vents, ventilated tiles and perforated screens - all designed to improve flow and increase the longevity of roof structures built when perhaps the evidence or knowledge wasn't so well spread.

The Government here, from time to time, finances schemes to improve the insulation standard of our, generally, very poor quality housing. This tends to consist of hoards of installers cramming as much FG as they can into cold roofs, usually closing off all openings that were correctly left at the waves - which blocks off the ventilation path, leading to a number of future significant issues.

[Mary B]

Even in cold MN we vent our roofs. Keeps moisture from condensing and keeps things cooler in summer. Here if you insulate the rafter spaces we first staple in a plastic chute on the underside of the roof in each rafter space. This lets air flow under the roof and keeps the insulation dry.

[MattM]

A funny situation once hit us in our storage shed at our old shop.  On hot, humid days when a sudden rain storm hit the shed looked like it was raining inside.  The shed was a lean-to extension off a former lumber yard barn, and our machinery was in the barn area.  The roof had just been redone with the main barn getting insulation over the roof and the lean-to shed recieved fiberglass rolls with paper in the rafters.  Both roofs had rubber membranes over them.  The roofers couldnt find holes in the roof and were confused, especially since it only happened on hot days.

Turns out the condensation was forming under the rubber, because fiberglass breathes freely.  The cold rain created the dreaded cold side over the fiberglass insulation and its downward facing paper vapor barrier.  By the time we figured out the issue most of it had fallen down.  Damn shed didnt need insulation anyhow.

[clockmanFRA]

Just finishing the apple harvest, here in Normandy.

In a few weeks this trailer will do the rounds. he he.


 

[clockmanFRA]

It is that time of year again.......

Not much happening outside. No 2 boy keeping the cat and the dog amused, PV struggling a bit.



I am inside putting the "Making a OzInverter" book together. Managed 12,000 words and 30 photos so far,  and not even at the making the toroid bit. At this very moment I am compiling the "Materials and suppliers Stock lists", and still got 'oztules' 60,000 words to prioritise.    

[Bruce S]

How did the apple Brandy turn out ?

[clockmanFRA]

How did the apple Brandy turn out ?

We won't know yet for a couple of years.

It goes into oak casks, (hand made jobs, they still have Coopers here), its those casks that gives the flavour.

I have 5 diferent sizes of oak cask, so I could rotate them.

Trouble is I don't really think I can drink a cask a year..............

We got all our equipment, scratter, (chpper/crusher), big screw press, oak casks, and several thousand bottles from the small Chateau up the road when they sold the place in 2003.

In general a good 15 to 20 year old Calvados, (apple brandy) is up there with a good Scottish Single Malt Whisky.

So I am a happy man.


 

[Bruce S]

Happy yes!
I've made home-made apple Alky, then did what a "vintner" called cheating by doing freeze/thaw method using purchased oak barrel wedges.
WAS some of the smoothest Alky I made in years. I grow a heirloom ( small naturally) apple. To keep tree rats away, we pickup all that have fallen dump them into a air-locked barrel. Once I have enough , I get out the small solar still and get a brew going.
I cannot barrel mine (no room) so using freeze/thaw stages allow us to enjoy sooner.
NOT anything to brag about but,,, waste not want not  .

I would've thought the sunshine on the panels would melt that snow.
Cheers!

[clockmanFRA]

Still winter here.

Last few days, the rain has stopped pelting down, and the winds have calmed down.

Building projects are still on hold.

But I did, with the help of my 9 year old, manage to cut and trim all the trees and hedges around the Wind turbine area.

Here is a photo of the once a year cut Reed Beds, Norfolk Reed, (Phragmites australis ), in the Wind turbine  and the Lavoir building, (Power station), and wash pond area.
 No 2 Turbine still down, 12 meter/ 40ft mast, Gin Pole is up, awaiting suitable dryish weather to get the trailer down the wet field to get the PMG down.

All our grey water from all our properties goes to the 40 sq meter reed beds. First a top feed 20sq meter gravel bed, then a settlement pond of 10sq meters and a final clear water area of 10sq meters, then all waters pass into the 100,000 litre fish pond, carp.

We have a separate, 200 meters away, foul water sewerage system for all our buildings.

[ontfarmer]

Looks like solar panels on the " Lavoir Building "  ?

The cat is checking to see if it is OK.




'

[clockmanFRA]

Hi ontfarmer,

Yes, those PV panels are my oldest. They are Amorphous types, 80w, some are 28 years old and still producing, 2 are early Monos at 100w.

They now run a 9 year old small 12v water pumping system, 4off 12v bilge pumps, that takes the water up 5 meters to a 2000 litre Polypropylene water tank that gravity feeds 300 meters to our walled garden.

Need a walled garden here to keep the local flipping Cows out of the veg plot. Farmers fences here are not the best.  Its small dairy herds, less than a 100 cows, clay heavy soil, rolling countryside that is not suitable for arable. Most farmers send the milk for Camembert Cheese, (EEC protected regional product), that is only 10 miles away.

Yes that's Kiwi, a French cat from a local rescue centre, just checking that everything is ship shape. He's a big cat and swims, and chases my carp about. Very odd to peer into the water to see a cat coming up towards you, yes he has webbed feet.
 The local hunters around here shot are previous UK cat, a guy leaning over the gate then driving away.

My Mrs, very Parisian French, gave the local Hunt what for!..... But then we need them to keep the Foxes under control, we are always losing our chickens, even in broad daylight.


 

[Bruce S]

clockmanFRA;
Here are some of the Fire Metals I wrote about. The French display is too big for my cellphone camera to get in one shot without resorting to panning or slicing.