Author Topic: Block diagram for our turbine  (Read 1224 times)

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kitestrings

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Block diagram for our turbine
« on: September 05, 2018, 03:49:17 PM »
I made an attempt to compile a handful of schematics into a single overview of our turbine and related controls.  It's not quite a schematic, but better than some of the hand-drawn thoughts on napkins that I'd had up until now.  I've been telling my wife I should probably put some of this down for my children, and her next husband (the toothless b@&$rd), for when I kick off.  I call the turbine "kitewind".

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SparWeb

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2024, 01:20:47 AM »
Hi Kitestrings,
I find myself looking at the Classics again, which drew me back to this.

I'm curious: what do you do for grid connection, if any?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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kitestrings

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2024, 09:17:29 AM »
Nope.  We're off-grid.

I didn't show our PV (3.2 kW) system or any of the end-use side of things in the above diagram.  We have the two Classics for the turbine, and we have an older Outback MX60 that contributes the solar to the same battery bank.  For AC loads we have just an Outback VFX 3648 (48VDC, 3.6 kW, 120VAC), and our Onan (4.5 kW) for back-up.  I'd always thought that we'd add a second OB for 240VAC, but it just never seemed necessary, or worth the effort.

I suspect a connection to the grid would just be a limitation of the inverter used.

Here's where our system is a little weird -

We started with a very modest 12VDC system (circa 1985).  When we transitioned 48V we kept much of the existing 12V lighting.  I added a 60A, 12VDC breaker panel (Square D breakers are rated to 24VDC).  So, we have a 12V tap with a Solar Converter equalizer.

Our water system is a 24V Sunpump submersible to a cistern, then a 48V vintage F E Myers piston pump for pressurization.

We also have two small step-down converters: one 48/12VDC for the fridge, and one 48/24V that supplies our freezer and submersible.

I'm by no means suggesting anyone else should adopt this approach.  As I think you know though, things evolve differently over time than they might otherwise if one started from scratch with all future objectives known, or better predicted, and without the financial and resource constraints most of us start out with -

Sorry, more than you asked for.  Let me know if you have any questions about the Classic's.  I'd say they have worked well for us.

Best, ~ks


SparWeb

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2024, 02:54:38 PM »
Quote
more than you asked for.
Sure, every system that evolves long enough develops prehensile things like gall bladders and wisdom teeth.

I was pretty sure you operated off-grid, but wondered if there was occasional support from an existing supply.

Thanks for the extra detail.

My house is already on grid, so I'm looking at an existing pump, stove, heating and other things that pull many thousands of kW each.  And it's trivially easy to turn them all on at the same time.  Replacing them all would be very invasive surgery.  While I could save energy that way, I also expect such changes would not increase the value of the house, nor have anything but a negative effect on reliability or ease of repair.  For all of the modifications I've already done, I'm the only repair man.  I've whittled our consumption down to less than 8000 kWhr per year.  Probably terrible to an off-gridder like you.

These considerations make choosing a grid-tie inverter pretty complicated.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2024, 03:05:13 PM »
I'm finding it difficult or near impossible to incorporate the wind turbine into the grid-tie design, unless it's absolutely stand-alone by itself and doesn't interact with the house in any way.  That precludes any self-consumption of WT electricity.

There are ways to re-arrange it, but it would require numerous trenches dug across the yard.  The layout is currently radial from the utility pole.  A system that prioritizes self-consumption must permit the grid-tie inverter to manage the load delivered to the grid and used by the consumers.  Pretty much impossible if the grid-tie inverter is on a sub-panel of a branch not connected to the source producing energy.

Oh, and getting back to why I mentioned the Classic - if the WT is purely for export it had better be optimized by MPPT. 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

kitestrings

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2024, 09:18:03 AM »
I can surely relate to being the "only repair man".  Lately we've been having some discussions about how we might plan for the times ahead where I can't do, or remember  ???, how to do this stuff.  An electrician would; step one: tear it out all out, right.

Regarding your usage, 8,000 kWh is pretty much in line with our average residential member/consumer.  There are no free lunches.  While we survive comfortably on probably half that amount, we also consume some 700+ gallons of LPG annually.  I bet on a levelized MMBtu perspective we're on par (I assume here that you are not heating electrically).

I follow the complexity of adding *net metering for you.  I probably wouldn't do it as a retrofit either.  More likely I would continue, as I think you have, with some more modest isolated tasks for the turbine.  What the Classic might better allow, is the option of fetching some sort of "opportunity" load diversion.  In our case we preheat DHW using a feature called "Waste-Not".  I think you may be familiar, but this allows you to prioritize battery charging, but then divert excess power relative to a charging threshold (bulk, float or equalize).

This said, I find the objectives are interestingly different with net metering, then with off-grid; and particularly with wind.  With traditional net metering (PV) we want to maximize our output, sending as much unused credit to the utility for banking (the 'battery' of net metering if you will).  The banked excess being monetized and used to reduce costs in less sunny times.  For off-grid, and with wind maintenance in mind, we want to fill the batteries and serve our coincident needs, but then shut down to save wear and tear.

*Here in VT net metering has gotten quite (unnecessarily IMO) complicated.  It started with a simple approach, allowing the billing meter to run backwards.  Now, there are two meters for most systems, and there are REC and siting adjusters to the production.  There are also set up fees and "non-bypassible" charges (monthly and efficiency utility) that must be paid in all cases.

Mary B

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2024, 11:51:07 AM »
Solar/wind install and repair is being offered at more and more schools... so people to repair it are out there

kitestrings

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Re: Block diagram for our turbine
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2024, 12:38:40 PM »
Yes, although I suspect it is focused on more mainstream, net metering, and PV w/battery back-up systems.  It's doubtful that someone would step in and work these one-off off-grid systems.... although Neilho and I have worked on a few come to think of it.