Author Topic: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries  (Read 2723 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2017, 10:03:48 PM »
Quote from: george65
No they don't. 
What do you think is the most profitable part of every GM/Chevrolet dealership?
Service and maintenance.
Many of these businesses barely clear their costs on sale of the auto itself.
The dealerships that sell for the Big 3 automakers are all dependent upon their service & parts departments to keep the businesses afloat.

I have been an ASE re-certified Master Auto tech for over 22 years and recently ASE Advanced Level Specialist. Own an independent repair shop although we can use OBD11 which was mandated by the GOV'T here in the US.

I worked at a Nissan dealership for years and they had propriety computer scanners, service manuals etc, I rebuilt automatic transmissions and Drivability.

There is some aftermarket education on Hybrids but it is very limited....

I think what's happening the Big 3 they are strengthen there hold on the service industry. The only reason they had to conform to OBD11 was because of the emission's standard. That's not the case with EV's Its a huge loophole and no one will be able to service them except the dealer.

   

   

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 10:11:11 PM »
Hi Dnix,
It's been obvious all along that many all-electric cars are only meant for the luxury market.  The cheaper all-electrics that go down the market like the MiEV and Bolt look like shopping carts, and simply not an option for commuters with families.

You may have the Bolt confused with something else.  The Bolt has something like a 60 kWh battery and a 200+ mile EPA range, and in a sense is (arguably) the first relatively longer-range relatively affordable, more or less widely-available BEV offered to US buyers, ever.  Unfortunately, it only came out about a year ago, so for those of us on a lower budget, it will be several years before it is affordable to us.  I agree the looks aren't that great.  The Tesla Model 3 has somewhat the same specs and price, but in terms of looks and overall positioning is more a BMW 3-series entry level luxury competitor.

The iMiEV indeed had a way-too-small 16 kWh battery when it came out and the range is way too low for many purposes including most anything I could do with it.

Related minor tip: I usually figure something along the lines of 3 miles per kWh, as a very (very) rough rule of thumb.  You'll see higher estimates and you'll see lower ones and indeed in one and the same car you can get anything from probably below 2 miles per kWh to above 4 miles per kWh, depending on how you drive it and what the task is, the weather, etc.  Some hypermilers (or even just moderate drivers in certain good EVs) can even get above 5.  However, for just rule-of-thumb understanding, if someone tells me the battery size, I remind myself that the entire battery is not used, and that manufacturers may get optimistic and I pencil in to be satisfied if I can get 3 miles/kWh.  In certain conditions I would even rate 2.5 miles/kWh as not-bad, but when I drove a Leaf, it would have disappointed me unless there was a reason such as needing to drive on the highway or cold weather forcing use of the heating system.


Not sure why the conversation has been treating hybrids as the same as all-electrics.  Pretty sure everyone here knows the difference.

I think this and other conversations could do with some erring-on-the-side of clarification.

BEV: Battery Electric
PHEV: Plug-In Hybrid (though some seem to call this "hybrid".... I can't blame them but it gets confusing because:)
HEV: Hybrid (i.e.: it has no plug, and can only be fueled on gasoline - it may drive on electric only a tiny bit, but is not a plug-in vehicle.... for clarity instead of calling this just "hybrid" I sometimes like to call it a non-pluggable hybrid.)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 10:33:38 PM by jlsoaz »

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2017, 03:23:36 AM »

I think this and other conversations could do with some erring-on-the-side of clarification.

BEV: Battery Electric
PHEV: Plug-In Hybrid (though some seem to call this "hybrid".... I can't blame them but it gets confusing because:)
HEV: Hybrid (i.e.: it has no plug, and can only be fueled on gasoline - it may drive on electric only a tiny bit, but is not a plug-in vehicle.... for clarity instead of calling this just "hybrid" I sometimes like to call it a non-pluggable hybrid.)

You're right!
Just as not everyone lives in the US and is familiar with the market there and things not available in other places, not everyone is up on all the acronyms  for electric vehicles which were getting into extreme overload.

If the mechanical game does not work out you sure seem to have the credentials to be a PR spokes person for the EV market!   :D

Bruce S

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4577
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2017, 09:17:54 AM »
I've now helped work on 2 Camry Hybrids that would be considered HEVs, they do not use Li based batteries either, they use
NiMh. Ea measuring at 7.2vdc.
The Camry's show a module fault, the dealer will only swap an entire bank, yet you can get individuals at a good price if you dig deep enough. Changing them out is hefty task and you really need to be OCD about labeling everything.
AliExpress has the tester/balancer and needed cables.
Pretty straight forward, just gotta follow the instructions. The balancer is what I now use to test my little 18650, and balance them once the pack is built.

Haven't found an owner that would let me dig into their battery bank to see what's what.
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2017, 07:18:06 AM »

I think this and other conversations could do with some erring-on-the-side of clarification.

BEV: Battery Electric
PHEV: Plug-In Hybrid (though some seem to call this "hybrid".... I can't blame them but it gets confusing because:)
HEV: Hybrid (i.e.: it has no plug, and can only be fueled on gasoline - it may drive on electric only a tiny bit, but is not a plug-in vehicle.... for clarity instead of calling this just "hybrid" I sometimes like to call it a non-pluggable hybrid.)

You're right!
Just as not everyone lives in the US and is familiar with the market there and things not available in other places, not everyone is up on all the acronyms  for electric vehicles which were getting into extreme overload.

If the mechanical game does not work out you sure seem to have the credentials to be a PR spokes person for the EV market!   :D

Thanks George. 

My work in part does involve the EV market (though I want to hasten firmly to disclaim, on this and other discussions I am speaking 100% only for myself).

jlsoaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2017, 07:33:28 AM »
I haven't bothered to chime in before now, because i guess Norway are in a unique situation when it comes to EV's. In excess of 98% of all power generated here are hydroelectric, and it's usually a surplus of it; the grid are solid, and power is cheap (avg. 0.04 US cent).

Edit;
And gasoline are not cheap - avg. $1.80-$2.00 for 1 liter.
/edit

The government has heavy intensives for EV's - no import-tax, no road-tax or road-toll, free parking, etc. It wont last, but people are buying ev's. ;)
There is a goal to have max 50 km between quick-charge stations along main roads around the whole country, and it's soon there - i have at least 20 QC-stations within 15 km of my home.
Close to 5% of all registered cars in Norway are EV's, and around 30% of new car sales are EV's.
There are talk of banning sales of new ICE cars from 2025 in Norway... (not confirmed...)

I myself has a 2013 leaf, and won't go back to ice. :) (I would like to have the new one with 40kWh bank, or the next year model with 60kWh, but... :) )

So - EV's do have a future; when everything are in place...

Simen, good to read your points, thanks for sharing them.  Norway seems like such an unusual country in some ways.  For example, not all petroleum-oriented countries would allow petroleum-based fuels to be so expensive.  I love the goal about 50 km maximum between QC stations on main roads.... to me this is kind of "normalization".... (roughly) the sort of maximum distance I expect between gasoline stations in the US along highways.

Where I live, there are still no QC stations in this county, and only one public J1772 level 2 (a local business owner partnered and we put it in.... has turned out to be a very good experience):
https://www.plugshare.com/location/20748

When I leased a 2012 Nissan Leaf for 39 months, I never once was stranded, but had to retain a gasoline vehicle for longer trips, and when I did not use the gasoline car, had to avoid the highway for longer trips and drive at around 45 mph on other roads, to make it with charge to spare.  For a time the closest public L2 was about 42 miles away (uphill on the way back) and anyway it no longer works.  However, things are looking up in Tucson, AZ (60 miles away) and as their EV population and charge infrastructure situation improves, I think it's only a matter of time before the tide turns here.  As well, there is the issue of building out the infrastructure along the highway south of here in Mexico.  Funny, Nissan is a big deal in Mexico, and there is a dealership only 15 miles away across the border, but last I was there, even though the city has 200,000+ people, they were not selling EVs, nor had a charge station that I recall.

The price of gasoline here is much lower compared to where you live and, notwithstanding a lot of analyses focusing on other matters (subsidies for vehicle purchase, other policies), I think this is a major headwind to greater EV adoption.... that fuel prices do not (in my opinion) reflect property damage caused in the refining, providing or use of the fuel.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 07:38:51 AM by jlsoaz »

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2017, 04:53:04 PM »
I think this is a major headwind to greater EV adoption.... that fuel prices do not (in my opinion) reflect property damage caused in the refining, providing or use of the fuel.

Do you think electricity prices reflect the damage done by coal mining, treatment and burning and lets not even get started on the problems and damage Nukes have caused and will cause for future generations to manage and deal with?

That's not even looking at the huge amount of issues before the suff is used in mining and processing it.
The cost and damage done by Chernobyl and Fukishima is incalculable both on a financial and human scale and will NEVER be paid off or for that matter end. Fukishima is in a worse situation now than when it happened but it's just covered up and swept under the table by the media so out of sight, out of mind.
Except if you have been evicted from your house, town and livelihood, watched your loved ones get sick or die and been handled by your lying gubbermint.

Sorry but that is a ridiculous and pompous statement given the way power is generated where you are which you need to power your EV's and what most of the rest of the world relies on for power.
Solar, wind and Hydro are only a small percentage of the worlds power sources. Take a look at where your volts come from and then apply the same standards to power generation as you apply to Fuel production.

I can see you are electric smitten but if you want to maintain any credibility, I'd suggest statements like that quoted would best be kept to yourself because they only reflect an unbalanced Bias that puts your other opinions into question.

SparWeb

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3392
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2017, 09:12:18 PM »
George,
Take a facts pill and call me in the morning.
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=AZ
It's all out on top of the table and above board. 

So what if there are some nuclear power plants in Arizona? 
If you want to compare these plants to Chernobyl or Fukushima, then you will just expose that you don't know what you're talking about.

As for coal, well:
Quote
Arizona's only operating coal mine, Kayenta, on the Navajo and Hopi reservations, supplies all of its coal to the Navajo Generating Station. The station is scheduled to close in 2019, removing nearly two-fifths of Arizona's coal-fired capacity from service...

Lastly, Arizona has the 3rd highest solar electricity generation in the USA, behind California (of course) and North Carolina (surprise to me).

BTW, I encourage you to read up on the Palo Verde power plant with a "win-win scenario" mindset to really appreciate what's been accomplished there.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2017, 10:27:28 PM »
George,
Take a facts pill and call me in the morning.
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=AZ
It's all out on top of the table and above board. 

You want me to call you to tell you I was right and the chart you linked to shows that coal and nuke are the 2 biggest power generation Sources there as well as nearly everywhere  else in the world?
Seems my facts were spot on!

Apart from the fact I already looked at that, I was talking a world scale not a localised state one. the comment was fuel prices didn't reflect the damage done. I don't know how much oil Arizona produces but I'll bet it imports a shipload so the comment would be pertinent to further reaching places than just one state.

Before YOU get your knickers too much in a twist, I'm NOT anti coal or fossil fuel, I'm anti Bullshit, wherever it is applied to a particular bias and to be dead honest, the green proponents lay it on thicker than anyone else and cherry pick their spin doctoring endlessly just like this.
The Electric car bandwagon riders always go on with this " No tail pipe emissions"  crap ignoring where the power they use comes from. It's NOT emissions free at all and to present or claim it is other the very few places of the world where ALL power is renewable is a lie.


Quote
So what if there are some nuclear power plants in Arizona? 
If you want to compare these plants to Chernobyl or Fukushima, then you will just expose that you don't know what you're talking about.

Oh really?
So the plants in Arizona don't produce nuke waste that is buried or stored somewhere for the far forseeable future because they don't have any way to dispose of it?
Geez! what a break through. Why have they kept this secret? They should tell the world they have found a way to make this incredibly dangerous poison safe!  ::)

The only difference between Fukishima and Chernobyl is the ones in Arizona haven't blown up yet.  The others were safe and friendly and all that too till human or other causes took them out. When a nuke plant goes bad, the cleanup is never over. the contamination will last generations and the cost will never fully be calculated... on purpose.


Quote
As for coal, well:
Quote
Arizona's only operating coal mine, Kayenta, on the Navajo and Hopi reservations, supplies all of its coal to the Navajo Generating Station. The station is scheduled to close in 2019, removing nearly two-fifths of Arizona's coal-fired capacity from service...

Good luck with that.  Probably end up like we have here, state wide blackouts.  Nothing like pushing an ideal before it's time and compromising stability and reliability of your grid.  But you $1000 the power prices take a hike upwards as well.

Lastly, Arizona has the 3rd highest solar electricity generation in the USA, behind California (of course) and North Carolina (surprise to me).[/quote]

Big deal.   ::)
Quick look up of what that means in real terms:

By 2025, we expect 15% of our electricity will come from renewable generation.
In other words, getting to just 15% of the power generated is still another 7 years away and it would be safe to assume that currently  Maybe 10-11% is solar, If that.
In other words,  85% of the states power is NOT from renewable sources.
If I wanted to be creditable about something, I wouldn't be harping on about an over 85% flaw in the cause I'm pushing. 

Quote
BTW, I encourage you to read up on the Palo Verde power plant with a "win-win scenario" mindset to really appreciate what's been accomplished there.

Read what?
More spindoctoring and self serving Hype from teh nuke industry? the same people that came out after Fukishima and tried to tell the world radiation was good for you and there hadn't been a melt down, no radiation had escaped, levers were safe, there hadn't been a nuclear explosion and the 100 other blatant lies they insulted the world with?
No thanks. I'll stick to getting my fantasy from the Disney channel who are more realistic than the nuke industry on any day.

But again, explain to me what you see is so wonderful about the place?
It doesn't emit Co2?   How about that spent fuel. What do they recycle that into and how it is made safe so it won't contaminate anything?

It amazes me how the Save the planet proponents worry about "The planet our kids and grand kids will inhabit" then talk about nuke generation like its clean and wonderful when it produces the most deadly, powerful, long lasting, soloutionless  waste behind like it's nothing.


Lets start with a picture of the place.



Now tell me how that is better than the comment I addressed bing: " that fuel prices do not (in my opinion) reflect property damage caused in the refining, providing or use of the fuel."

What do you think that land may be good for after they have finished using it as a nuke power plant? Say in 1000 years which is what it will take minimum for anyone to do anything else there.... if they even can then.


I'm real comfortable I know what I'm taking about. Truth and unbiased reality rather than spin doctoring and sticking my head in the sand to promote a particular cause that has holes in it you could slide a semi through sideways!

If EV proponents were honest in their convictions for no emissions etc they would either have enough  renewable power of their own to supply their vehicles or live in a place where the grid was all renewable supplied like a previous poster mentioned. Those getting power from a place that is 85% ( at least!) Non renewable and then oil is kidding themselves and insulting everyone else they push it to.

SparWeb

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3392
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2017, 02:53:08 PM »
George,
I owe you an apology for getting you all riled up.  Could not resist poking the bear, so to speak...

JLSoaz,
I suppose this counts as hijacking your thread - not my intention - so I owe you an apology too.
As I've said already, your choice to drive electric is not rendered invalid by the supply of energy it uses, just as it won't be for me, when I do too.
I don't know why this brings out such a emotional reaction in some folks, but it's not fair to provoke it.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2017, 05:02:09 PM »

I don't know why this brings out such a emotional reaction in some folks, but it's not fair to provoke it.

Because " Some Folks" get tired of having rubbish shoved down their throats.
Typicaly you dismiss fact's that are not what you want to hear as " emotional".  Show me where anything I said was not accurate and verifiable?

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
  • Country: ca
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2017, 05:09:59 PM »
from what i see the  electric vehicle industry depends on lithium to get a good enough power  density.
lithium is a rare earth.
now maybe i'm wrong but i read recently that there is only enough lithium to last 16 years if we use it the way Elon Musk is talking about.
so why is the human race hooking our wagon to a soon to be dead pony ?
is Elon  going to import the stuff from Mars?


JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2017, 07:29:19 PM »
I think silver-iron/oxide battery's are the way of the future the silver is not consumed and the battery's are highly recyclable. Since silver is a precious metal a battery/core is potentially just as valuable as a working battery bank...

There used constantly on nuclear submarines/today...     

MattM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2017, 07:41:02 PM »
I'm sure there are more affordable and simple solutions to support EV's.  Surely there will be peak times for charging with a majority of the time the station is idle.  We probably need capacitance for routing extra surge during peak times.  Probably would be best handled at each point in the chain from generation plant to point of application.  There is an opportunity currently with much of the grid in need of overhaul to redesign these attributes.  Flow batteries appear to be most appropriate in the industrial scale applications.  NCd and NiMh are probably more appropriate at the residence.  Too bad ferris wheel sized flywheels wouldn't be feasible and chemical appears to hold the most promise.  I'd rather avoid the chemical solutions where low tech can be appropriate.  I would love to see cooperative generation, too, which encouraged power companies to subsidize rooftop generation on the extremities of a community.  Without local capacity during peak times, I just don't see the grid sustaining an EV based transportation system.

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2017, 08:06:12 PM »
lithium is a rare earth.
now maybe i'm wrong but i read recently that there is only enough lithium to last 16 years if we use it the way Elon Musk is talking about.
so why is the human race hooking our wagon to a soon to be dead pony ?


Same thing has occoured to me.
One main champion of the switch to EV's is that oil is running out.  Makes no sense to me to be going to a technology base that you know from the start is very limited and repeat the same problem with the previous fuel. 

Also shoots the " batteries will get cheaper " idea in the foot.  The higher the demand for something in limited supply, the more EXPENSIVE it gets.  Lowering price is only by streamlining manufacture when the base material is easily available an in production.  Batteries of this type have been made the same way for a long time and will continue to be. there is no where else to improve with production which is all automated now.
When the base material gets scarce, price can only go up.

Same goes for the old lead acid. There are millions of the thing made every year just for vehicle/ industrial applications and demand grows. Price of LA batteries has gone up not down despite how many they make. Making Millions more a year is not going to make them cheaper. I'd guarantee it will go the other way if only through taxes and levies as authorities become concerned how much lead is getting out there.

They would be a LOT better off to look at a different battery technology to start with but of course doing the best thing and making the fastest buck are very different things.

I'm not sure what the battery pack expected life on EV's is, I thought I read somewhere it was 5-7 years. If it's 5-10 years and lithium is expected to run out in 16 years, you can bet that it will be cheaper to scrap your expensive Tesla and but something new at the time than try and replace the battery pack on what may well be an otherwise perfectly good car.
So much for saving the environment on that one.

george65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: au
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2017, 08:36:59 PM »
Without local capacity during peak times, I just don't see the grid sustaining an EV based transportation system.

To me this begs the question, In an EV populated world, what exactly will the Peak time be?
It would seem to me it will follow the evening peak we see now. People would come home from work and plug in to recharge.
That would blow the current peak demand to all hell.

I was reading on the Tesla chargers that they can be set to charge at certain times taking advantage of off peak power rates. A great idea.
Problem is of course off peak power demand is also off peak production and generation. Solar is going to be a huge contributor to the power supply even if just taking demand off the grid from homes.

In our northern hot state, many shopping centres have awnings in the outdoor car parks to shade the vehicles. I noticed when I was up there a few weeks ago many places have got onto the good idea to put panels on these structures which add up to some significant area and no doubt power generation to lessen the centres drag on the grid.
 To avoid the night time overload and to make use of the solar generation, places like shopping centres and workplace carparks are going to have to provide recharging facilities.  That's going to be a HUGE cost someone is going to have to pay for. No doubt some of the cost will be recouped by selling power at a profit.

While solar will go a long way to offsetting grid demand, what happens when the whole city is getting rained on and solar production plummets to near nothing? That will kill all that local production which I also think is a good idea but leave a big whole to fill. With the anti coal hysteria running rife, there really isn't anything that can be relied on to take up the slack.
Something is going to have to take up the load and you can forget about wind round here. The places that are viable have largely already been utilised and to put in more mills is going to start affecting farm land and other uses not to mention the visual problem.  Again, wind is NOT cheap at all so power costs will skyrocket even further.

 I have a LOT of doubts about EV's replacing any significant proportion of the mainstream fleet because the the huge amount of power they consume IS going to be extremely difficult to supply reliably and when it's wanted in the great majority of places.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2017, 10:50:22 PM »
I think silver-iron/oxide battery's are the way of the future the silver is not consumed and the battery's are highly recyclable. Since silver is a precious metal a battery/core is potentially just as valuable as a working battery bank...

There used constantly on nuclear submarines/today...   

no they aren't. currently some of the boats are using thin plate pure lead sealed agm batteries.

anyhow, George, diverting the gasoline and diesel burned in a car, and burning the same oil (before it got refined, before losses) into a power plant to charge your electric vehicle is a good doubling of miles driven per pound of dinosaur bones.  with existing technology. the only problem left is: is the battery worth it? probably not in my opinion, given the impossible to calculate externalities associated with mineral acquisition, production, and recycling (or lack thereof)

peak charging hours/problem can be solved with variable electric rates that change by the minute.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:59:10 PM by joestue »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 10:59:49 PM »
A silver-oxide battery (IEC code: S) is a primary cell. and yes i know about them.

not to mention the ridiculous idea that there is enough silver in the world to make a rechargeable silver battery a viable option for gigawatt hours of capacity..
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 11:05:59 PM by joestue »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 11:15:20 PM »
 A silver-oxide battery (IEC code: S) is a primary cell with a very high energy to weight ratio. Available either in small sizes as button cells (where the amount of silver used is minimal and not a significant contributor to the product cost), or in large custom designed batteries where the superior performance of the silver-oxide chemistry outweighs cost considerations. These larger cells are mostly found in applications for the military, for example in Mark 37 torpedoes or on Alfa-class submarines. In recent years they have become important as reserve batteries for manned and unmanned spacecraft. Spent batteries can be processed to recover their silver content.


Silver oxide cells
Silver-oxide battery
 
 Specific energy   130 Wh/kg[1]      
Energy density   500 Wh/L[1]      
Specific power   High      
Charge/discharge efficiency   N/A      
Energy/consumer-price   Low      
Time durability   High      
Cycle durability   N/A
   
 In recent years they have become important as reserve batteries for manned and unmanned spacecraft. Spent batteries can be processed to recover their silver content.
 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 12:05:50 AM by JW »

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2279
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2017, 08:55:54 AM »
"Rare earth elements" are not rare, but difficult to separate because they have similar chemical properties. Note that gold, silver and platinum are not "rare earth elements."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element

There is an estimated 20 million tons of gold in the ocean, but that translates to a fraction of a part per billion, so it isn't practical to recover that way

http://www.goldrushnuggets.com/goldinocean.html

Lithium from sea water is possible, but the cost of still higher than just expanding mining in Bolivia.
http://www.dw.com/en/bolivias-evo-morales-plans-lithium-mining-offensive/a-39727810
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/04/19/new-method-extracting-lithium-natural-brine-yields-99-9-purity/

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1504
  • Country: us
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2017, 10:03:12 AM »
I suspect that while better batteries are nice, if you have the materials to make them, they will not provide all of our energy storage, even for transport.  There will probably be a large role for them as part of our energy mix, but we will need other options as well.  It seems that it will be hard for them to beat, or even approach the energy density of liquid hydrocarbons.

I would predict that one day, our major agricultural byproducts, which have tons of carbon collected from the air, will  be used as feed stocks to produce liquid hydrocarbons with energy from solar/wind, or nuclear fission/fusion reactors. 

We already have an existing liquid hydrocarbon fuel infrastructure which could maintain a large role in quenching our thirst for energy.  All we need is a different and sustainable source of both carbon and that energy. The carbon exists to some extent in agricultural waste and byproducts, and the energy could be increasingly collected from renewable sources and nuclear, especially if fusion can be one day attained.

One example of an agricultural byproduct feed stock would be from sugar cane.  In the case of the Worlds number one agricultural product, sugar cane, we are already carrying the canes to centralized locations to be crushed.  Once crushed the canes are often used as fuel , being burned as a heat source to fuel the crystallization process. In many cases the ash is recycled to the farmers and returned to the field.  If we were to replace the energy used in the process with solar or wind, dry and pyrolize the spent crushed canes instead, and use them as a feed stock in a Fischer Tropsch type process using solar, wind, or nuclear energy to provide that process energy we could recycle the carbon into fuels.  The waste ash containing much of the calcium, magnesium and phosphorus would be similarly recycled back to the farmer as part of the nutrient fertilizer to be recycled back to the field. 

The same general process could be done with corn stalks, wheat stalks, or other carbon rich byproducts which do not have other better uses. Harvesting for many of these products would have to be changed and the carbon rich byproducts collected and transported to centralized points for this type of process.   

This type of process is difficult to implement, and would use more total energy than we do  today to generate our fuel. The advantage would be that the hydrocarbons become fuel carriers instead of fuel sources, those being replaced by other sources that are more sustainable, hopefully allowing us to keep going without running out of energy or poisoning our planet to the extent we are now.

Once the cost of digging up hydrocarbons becomes expensive enough, or the environmental costs high enough, and the cost of reliable energy from other sources is relatively cheap enough this idea becomes more viable.  I think we are a still quite a few years away from that at this point. 

Ccapturing carbon that would otherwise go out into our environment is closer to carbon neutral than digging up carbon sources that have been buried for millions of years.  We could recycle the same carbon indefinitely as long as there is energy to do so. 

Just a thought, Rich
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2017, 01:58:26 PM »
Spent batteries can be processed to recover their silver content.

this is not a viable option for "rechargeable batteries"

it would be similar to the proposed "liquid nitrogen economy"

or even worse.. there is also some discussion of using concentrated solar to heat some kind of metal (i forget which).. which is then used to make hydrogen by pulling oxygen out of water.. which then drives your hydrogen fuel cells to power your car.


JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2017, 02:10:59 PM »
sciencing.com

https://sciencing.com/uses-silver-oxide-batteries-6012642.html
The U.S. military and the Apollo space program use silver oxide batteries because of the higher performance they exhibit. The high energy-density characteristics of the silver oxide batteries are used in the military and aerospace industries. They also have the ability to tolerate high current load. Silver oxide batteries find their use in Mark #7 torpedoes and also on Alfa class submarines. The only disadvantage here is that the average life cycle of the silver oxide battery is only about 20 to 25 recharge cycles, or about 3 to 5 years. But new designs are trying to achieve a better discharge cycle

JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2017, 03:44:32 PM »
I designed this Traction motor for a EV but it is DC, perfect for the silver battery's.
http://www.google.com/patents/US8261575

This patent has lapsed so anyone can build it, if they want to take it on... I would even help.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2017, 05:30:56 PM »
silver oxide ≠ silver-zinc.


furthermore if the silver zinc rechargeable battery can only be recharged about 25 times, why is this even on the discussion table?

JW

  • Development Manager
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2017, 05:52:46 PM »
I guess your right. What would you consider a target recharge # for an EV

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2017, 12:07:44 AM »
I guess your right. What would you consider a target recharge # for an EV

whatever number makes the battery pay for itself including the externalities associated with its creation.

gasoline at $3 a gallon is about 10 cents per kilowatt hour. assuming only 20% of this gets to the wheels, i should be able to travel 4.5 times the distance per dollar, with an EV at the same 10 cents per kilowatt hour for electricity.

the difference in price, from say, 10 miles per dollar on gasoline to 45 miles per dollar at my electric bill, is what pays off the battery.

a simpler way to break it down is to simply take the cost of gasoline at the wheels: 50 cents per kilowatt hour, and subtract the electrical rate you pay. 10 cents.

what you're left with is the life cycle cost of the battery. 40 cents per kilowatt hour to break even. you also have to factor in the cost of carrying a battery around in your car. for short trips it makes sense, for longer trips it doesn't, and for longer trips its not possible. you would have to drop the dead batteries out the back of your car the same as rockets have multiple stages.


so for 40 cents per kilowatt hour most cars could theoretically make their commute on lead acid if the batteries didn't weight anything, given that the life cycle cost of a lead acid battery is theoretically below 40 cents per kilowatt hour. i'm no sure it is.


300$ per kilowatt hour for lithium ion would be about 1 dollar per amp hour. at 1000 charge discharge cycles (complete, full cycles.) that works out to 30 cents per kilowatt hour.

if this is practically possible then it is marginally possible that lithium ion batteries will be cheaper than gasoline.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 12:12:27 AM by joestue »

Mary B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 810
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2017, 01:31:56 AM »
Super caps are going to eventually replace batteries... They are already competitive energy density wise with lithium batteries... just need the price to drop.

Simen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Country: no
  • Grimstad, Norway
Re: Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid), + solar, + garage stationary batteries
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2017, 02:20:50 AM »
If one are willing to sacrifice a bit weight/size, then Lithium Titanate Oxide cells would last a long time.
10 000 cycles @ 3C discharge; 50 000 cycles @ 0.5C discharge, and can handle fast charge in excess of 5C.

But because of the relative low power density (45 Wh/kg), i'm thinking these are more suited in a house bank.
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)