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jlsoaz

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a few basic points about electric vehicles
« on: December 26, 2017, 09:53:47 PM »
Hi - a few points were made in a recent thread about electric vehicles that I'd like to respond to and in some cases clear up some misunderstandings (the thread has been closed, but I have been traveling and was not yet able to respond; hopefully if I stick to some fairly straightforward points they will be allowed as the start of a less messed-up discussion).

1.
Point: someone said that Lithium is a  "Rare Earth" element and was discussing whether it's rarity would be a limiting factor in proposed global EV deployment in higher volumes.
Answer: No, it is not technically a "Rare Earth" element, but (more important than the technicality of how it is grouped) it does seem useful to point out that it is relatively rare and ask the question if this will be the limiting factor in an attempted global build-out of lithium-battery vehicles.  The answer so far seems to be no.  Just to give an idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

"...According to a 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves[92] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[93] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[94]..."

So, yes, I know, it's just wikipedia summarizing this and that, but as I said, just to give an example.

As well, a useful point to keep in mind, in my view, can be that lithium ion batteries are not necessarily comprised of that much lithium by percentage (of weight or volume, I'm not sure)..... there are a number of other elements (such as Cobalt) and sometimes some of those are regarded as possibly more likely to be the limiting factors in global economical volume deployment.

2.
Regarding a basic point that is often raised by critics of EVs, the claim is that plug-in EVs are as polluting or more polluting than gasoline and diesel fueled vehicles due to the pollution that is tied to generating electricity.  I think a few basic responses come immediately to mind:

a) first, even if in some cases an EV is installed in a dirty-electric-power-source situation, the world (taken as a whole) is moving toward increasingly cleaner power sources. 
b) Even if a plug-in EV starts out life fueled by electricity derived from extraordinarily dirty sources, that can change.  The owner may install solar panels or the the local power generator may evolve their power.  The same generally cannot be said of fossil fueled vehicles, though there are some exceptions to this.
c) To answer a point from SparWeb, yes, both well-to-wheels debates and life-cycle analysis debates are hot-button topics with respect to electric vehicles.  If you look hard enough you will find analyses which buttress this or that point of view.  However, as time passes and more  and more credible scientific analyses are done, the answer emerges that EVs are not the environmental boondoggle that the harshest critics would have us believe.  A relatively recent example here in the US:

https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953
Gasoline vs Electric—Who Wins on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions? We Found Out
RACHAEL NEALER, FORMER ENGINEER AND KENDALL SCIENCE FELLOW | NOVEMBER 12, 2015, 10:36 AM EST
I’m excited to introduce our newest analysis on electric cars, titled: Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave: How Electric Cars Beat Gasoline Cars in Lifetime Global Warming Emissions.


d) some comment was made as to my own pollution from my plug-in hybrid, given the dirtiness of the power grid in some parts of Arizona, USA.  I believe I had already answered that (although my answer seems to be ignored).  I have about 14-15 kWh production per day of solar on my house and there is a ~6 MW solar array down the street serving some of this small county's power needs,   Also, my house uses much less than the average house (some days less than 10 kWh, some more than 40, but with an average somewhere in there).  I don't think this sort of over-focus on any one individual's evolution toward cleaner sourcing for their EV miles is that productive, but given the lengths I've gone to harvest clean power and put some of the result in my car, and that I had tried to make this clear (including in the very subject heading of the thread), I don't think it is out of line for me to re-note this.

e) it has to be said that once the energy is stored onboard, EVs are very efficient (about 3 miles per kWh as a rule of thumb).

3.
As to grid reliability being negatively impacted by EVs, I am not certain of how to respond to that, but in regions of major EV deployment so far (eg: Norway, California, etc.) as far as I know, life and civilization have not broken down to the point of chaos where concentrations of EVs have been deployed, so I'm thiinking some of the concerns here, even if valid to a point, are (generalizing) overdone.

As to some locations maybe not being suitable yet (such as if some nations are not yet populated with public charge infrastructure or general grid infrastructure capable of handling widespread simultaneous charging), I'd say sure, it may be awhile before EVs are deployed there.  And, if the issue is an individual who doesn't want to wait 30-60 minutes (or in some cases even longer) on a 400 mile trip, instead of 10 minutes for a refuel, then, by all means, don't get an EV.

4. 
Silver-oxide and other types of technologies (supercaps) were raised.  As to silver-oxide, I think it's a point well-taken as to energy densities, but may not be economical and are they used for secondary (rechargable?) batteries?   The examples given (such as torpedoes) are more one-time-use types of uses, are they not?).

This seems useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery

"...A related rechargeable secondary battery usually called a silver–zinc battery uses a variation of silver–oxide chemistry. It shares most of the characteristics of the silver-oxide battery, and in addition, is able to deliver one of the highest specific energies of all presently known electrochemical power sources. Long used in specialized applications, it is now being developed for more mainstream markets, for example, batteries in laptops and hearing aids.[3][4]..."

I do seem to recall a race many years ago won by an EV powered by some sort of impractically expensive silver-containing battery.

As to supercaps, someone seemed to think they have progressed to the point of equaling energy volumetric or gravimetric densities of lithium ion battery variants, but I don't think they have.  I could be wrong.

Even if wrong, in mainstream high-volume applications, lithium ion batteries and variants (LFP, etc.) have won the day amongst virtually all major automakers and are being deployed at the rate of something like 1m passenger vehicles per year around the world.  Tables on this page give a quick idea of the worldwide numbers:

https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

So, aside from hashing out the status and details of this or that technology, I think the more important principle (in my view) is to understand that even though lithium ion batteries have their faults, they are already well along as the early preferred technology of mass-market electric vehicles and that they are "ready for use".  Undoubtedly the world will get to the next technology at some point, maybe soon, but in the meantime, the present technology is apparently not as wanting as some might fear.

5.  I personally view fossil fuel pollution (both in conventional pollution terms, and I do regard carbon as a pollutant) as a form of property damage and think that the cost of this should be reflected in the price.  My stating this elicited a personal attack and a rather bizarre mischaracterization of my views.  I would be happy to see the price of pollution property damage reflected in power prices.  My stating of these points may have in some way violated the principles of the board (I don't know, maybe we try to avoid policy discussions and stay only with technical?).

6. 
As to attempts to harm discussion of electric vehicles with straw-man argumentation, disinformation, broad-brush argumentation, even with personal attacks, I have tried generally to ignore such things and will continue to do so (though occasionally I guess I'll respond). For those who are interested in serious transportation discussion and relating it to the themes of this board, from where I sit, as time permits, that is of interest to me.

PS: I should add:
speaking only for myself.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:38:32 PM by jlsoaz »

electrondady1

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 07:24:24 AM »
from your link.

Opinions differ about potential growth. A 2008 study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production will be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[50]

According to a 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves[92] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[93] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[94]

electrondady1

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 07:47:16 AM »
now will Argentina and bolilvia (big sources of lithium ) we willing to give up control of their deposits or will they need some  "democracy"  applied by B1s and B52s


Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2017, 08:35:31 AM »
Let us not forget the deposits found in Afghanistan that is mapped as being as much as Bolivia.
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JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2017, 11:29:54 AM »
Quote from: joestue
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149410.msg1043521.html#msg1043521

Have you guys noticed that RC cars have started to use 3 phase motors and controllers.

dbcollen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 12:49:46 PM »
R/C has been brushless polyphase for quite some time now.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 02:29:13 PM »
The reason I bring up the 3 phase on R/C cars is its the same for BEV and synergy drive. In these systems have an adjustable freq for speed control, example above 60HZ and much higher voltages. I am a ASE Master Tech(recertified) for over 22 years, also I am a ASE Advanced level Specialist. This technology is moving fast and as auto technicians were playing catch-up. I have a $2,000 course that I have to take just for hybrids... 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:40:25 PM by JW »

SparWeb

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 03:17:38 PM »
Jlsoaz,
Thank you for picking the subject back up.  Agreed, it was time for a change of tone.

I'm not usually sure why such discussions bring up emotional reactions so easily.  It's unlikely that one person driving one EV is any threat to anyone else in the world, therefore the emotions must be coming from somewhere else; just transferred to the discussion at hand, without rhyme or reason.  OK Enough of that.

I'm looking forward to the day I can put a practical EV in my garage.  My personal calculation of what is my best choice doesn't have much to do with the source of the electricity it uses.  What I'm replacing - a fuel-burning ICE car - can easily be shown to pollute more.  It hardly matters what information I selectively ignore - it always come out in the EV's favour.  Actually, that car already exists - there are several to choose from - I just can't afford one yet, and my current vehicle is still purring along.  In the past year I've tweaked my driving habits and use 10% less gasoline per day.  Small victories...

There is no magic technology that will instantly transform the EV from the heavy metal machine it currently is into a fairy-dust driven chariot.  We have chemical-electric storage cells, a thousand chemistries have been tried, and the lithium salts fit the bill.  Those who think they know better can go into business for themselves and get rich if they can.  Nobody is thrilled to see the salt lakes in South America produced by lithium mining, but I can point to just as many square miles of salted lakes and stripped forests north of me that produces my auto gasoline.  To me it's NOT a good-vs-evil question.  (Get off the emotional roller-coaster).

BTW, you may enjoy reading Paul Gipe's latest blog about his EV:
http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4917&cHash=b99978141ddae5f4dd82db42cc9bf1a2


JW,
Please forgive me for not following what you mean with R/C vehicles.  I assume you don't mean hobby toys...
The DIY EV hobbyists have already given up on voltages below 100VDC, and DIY car conversions at 240VDC are common.  Electric vehicles like the Tesla, Volt, Leaf etc are running traction batteries at 200-300 Volts and more, some reaching up to 500VDC!  The polyphase drives are not necessarily 3-phase BLDC motors - some use induction motors.  Some have very high motor pole counts corresponding to controller drive switching frequencies at 10-15 kHz.  Battery packs are pretty much all Lithium based now, but there are still many choices of exact chemistry - Phosphates/Manganates/Iron - there are many out there.  So the EV state of the art is still actually a very wide variety of technologies.

How specific will your courses get - are they manufacturer or vehicle model-specific courses, or general for "all hybrids"?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:00:56 PM by JW »

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 04:28:31 PM »

I'm not usually sure why such discussions bring up emotional reactions so easily.

The basis for starting this thread was an emotional one, and somewhat curious in the OP's attachment to the EV ideal.
It's just a technology, not someone's child or  a person.  When people start treatig it as such and feel they have to defend it's honour such as the motivation for this very thread, that's emotional.

There are BIG problems with EV's as a mainstream transport medium.
To deny or downplay every fact and aspect of that is about as emotional and biased as one can get and really turns a discussion into nothing more than a political rally to champion the chosen candidate.

Anyone want to make some bets that EV's in 20 years will still be a minor player in the personal and business transport market?
Going against the grain I know but there are a lot of factors that I believe are at play that will limit their popularity.
The current Hype being a fairly good indicator.  Seen it with other things and the change that NEVER happened with those either.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 04:44:45 PM »
Quote from: george65
The basis for starting this thread was an emotional one, and somewhat curious in the OP's attachment to the EV ideal.
It's just a technology, not someone's child or  a person.  When people start treating it as such and feel they have to defend it's honor such as the motivation for this very thread, that's emotional.

I got a PM from jlsoaz after I closed the first topic, but lets face it everybody posting was exhausted, then we got into super capacitors and flywheels, so I closed it on Christmas. Everybody needed a break and it was around  8pm.

jlsoaz remarked he was out of town so he could not self moderate his post. So I said make a another post but be careful. 

Plus since the other topic is just locked we can use references from it. Its all good.



jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 09:48:19 PM »
from your link.

Opinions differ about potential growth. A 2008 study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production will be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[50]

According to a 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves[92] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[93] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[94]

Agree, I think opinions do differ.  Some folks think for global EV deployment to get to millions and dozens of millions of vehicles per year will be impossible due to material supply constraints on lithium, cobalt and other basic ingredients.  Some see such constraints as as less of an issue, particularly when taking into account recycling of key materials along with competing chemistries some of which do not involve nearly as much of certain materials.  As well, there is a time factor - global mining, processing and recycling may not be presently set up to handle x amount, but could plausibly grow to that in a number of years. 

My own view is that I am probably more in the latter camp.... there *are* headwinds to global EV deployment but I don't know that material supply constraints is really the main issue.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 09:53:24 PM by jlsoaz »

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 10:36:03 PM »
Quote from: george65
The basis for starting this thread was an emotional one, and somewhat curious in the OP's attachment to the EV ideal.
It's just a technology, not someone's child or  a person.  When people start treating it as such and feel they have to defend it's honor such as the motivation for this very thread, that's emotional.

I got a PM from jlsoaz after I closed the first topic, but lets face it everybody posting was exhausted, then we got into super capacitors and flywheels, so I closed it on Christmas. Everybody needed a break and it was around  8pm.

jlsoaz remarked he was out of town so he could not self moderate his post. So I said make a another post but be careful. 

Plus since the other topic is just locked we can use references from it. Its all good.

Hi - to clarify a couple of things:

I personally wasn't exhausted of the topic, but have a limited amount of time to read and respond under normal circumstances and that goes double for certain times, such as being on vacation.  I wasn't that happy about suffering some bizarre personal attacks from one single poster, and that is enervating, but other than that, I don't see any issue. 

Moderation  or self-moderation - I have no particular power to control it if George65 engages in personal remarks or other provocative strategies.  Sometimes, in the face of such, it is useful at least to give a try to trying to find some thread of substance in such comments and respond to it, but in this case that has not worked.
 
I do think it is quite important to note that outside of George65's points, I don't personally see any difficult issue.  I suggest let's not go looking for problems where they don't exist.  Regardless of agreement or disagreement, there seem to be posts offering knowledge and thoughts from various folks.  If an original poster is in some way expected to help keep things going I guess I can try to remind myself that it is my responsibility to keep my own points on-topic and straightforward, so I'll try to do that.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 10:50:02 PM »
JW, SparWeb:

Regarding radio controlled Cars:

In 2003 I spoke briefly with folks at a couple of the companies in the US on the forefront of EV work, as to how toying around with model airplanes had led to a realization that, with the newer lithium ion batteries that were coming on line, and their light weight, it might now be possible to proceed with electric vehicles in a way that had not previously been done - .... that we might have finally arrived at a point with battery improvement that we might "be there" in terms of gravimetric densities and other metrics.    A precursor to the Tesla had been built by then (the tzero) and it was not that long after that Tesla started pushing the boundaries and gunning for real commercial volume production of EVs, even if it seemed a difficult dream.

I don't follow RC cars or airplanes or have deep technical understanding, but I did think it was interesting to hear how a simple hobby pursuit had contributed to real progress.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 11:33:10 PM by jlsoaz »

electrondady1

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 07:08:27 AM »
to me,  the most interesting thing that has come out of electric vehicle  tech. is regenerative braking.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 07:09:26 AM »
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149410.msg1043527.html#msg1043527
 
This is were the topic started to deraile I had not seen you in many a page and a half jlsoaz. So thats what compelled that.

I probably used the wrong phrase ""self moderate" but you have to tend to your posts.

If you ever feel your not being treated fairly use the use the report to moderator button

MattM

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 07:33:26 AM »
to me,  the most interesting thing that has come out of electric vehicle  tech. is regenerative braking.

Back in the mid-80's Popular Science used to talk about it frequently.  Only instead of using it in cars with super compact flywheels it waited until cars with batteries.  Amazing that 'hybrid' cars really only shine when utilizing their regenerative braking, otherwise for most other purposes hybrids are a complete waste.  There is little reason regenerative braking doesn't proliferate across all modern vehicles.

Flywheel technology is relatively low tech.  Server rooms often use them for uninterrupted power supplies.  For something that could be massed produced for a fraction of its selling price, its patents policy that prevents their widespread usage.  At the current price they are impractical, but even then are price-competitive due to long lifespans and an ability to handle tens of thousands of full cycle duties without degradation.  I realize flywheels are frowned upon by some people here, but they are proven technology and can scale easily.  The single largest flywheel I've seen was around 40 foot in diameter and weighed something like 160 tons.  It was used with steam at 10 RPM to sustain well pumps operating around 1600 hp.  If the steam missed a few beats it would keep the pump arrays powered while fuel was restocked.  The pumps kept the miners from drowning.  K-I-S-S.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 08:53:23 AM »
Since I've been salivating over the Volt when they first appeared; I've been watching them get lower in price and better in manufacturing.
Being that I happen to work for a major American city Fire department, they too are very interested and concerned where safety is involved. Every year now, there are updates to proper handling of each type. ANY yet they are currently considered safer than PVs on a roof during a fire.
There are a few Teslas around but way more Volts and they look cooler.
 I was luck enough to have driven a 1st Gen T , no real big deal to me. An Alfa Romeo Milano was more impressive to drive IMO.

Batteries: I have also been lucky enough to be in and around battery types for better than a decade and it's been pretty cool to see how many different chemistries there are.
Here in the USA we are somewhat shielded from lesser known. While traveling in Manila back in 2010 and doing a little shopping along with Rich Hagen, for some additional "stuff" . I could've gone buying happy at the mall!!

One of the best reads I had was several years ago (2009?). It was a guy who wrote about his Corbin Sparrow and how he went about finding solutions for it's limited distances. Even though it used standard LA based batteries, he found work-arounds.
To me the EVs of today are experiencing the same. Not too long ago there sprang up people/companies that would install an extra battery pack in the Nissan's that doubled the range. After seeing all the space in a hybrid Camry and how easy it would be to hack the programming, I dn't see this as going away too soon.
These still use the lowly NiMh that are 99.999% recyclable. If I get so inclined to build out a power-wall ,these will be my go to batteries.

I've also watched as the supply line has bandied about saying there's a possible shortage of Lithium , IMO, those "headlines" are for futures' trading not really based on fact.

Are some countries able to gear up to pure EV routes quicker than others? That's a no brainer :0.
It's all about logistics and infrastructure , I'm sure that as time goes by, more and more of the infrastructure for each country will be get better and lean more towards building in for EVs.
While I'm not ASE certified, I am an old style mechanic and even I can see how ICE engines can be better served as backups to EVs ---down the road---.
No matter how fancy cars get , troubleshooting still comes down to 3 things. Electrical, mechanical, and fuel.

In as far as emotions go--- I can certainly see where some of it can come from.
There has been so much thrown out there as the next cure-all , that ya almost can't help but throw a fit when the news-boys get to talking. Fear mongering doesn't work anymore, just get us fact based information.

I've also watched how some posts go viral , then settle down into real fact based conversations, I certainly hope this post stays out of the realm of needing moderating beyond the OP.

Cheers
Bruce S
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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 09:02:22 AM »
  Amazing that 'hybrid' cars really only shine when utilizing their regenerative braking, otherwise for most other purposes hybrids are a complete waste.
Not really sure where there is any fact to this statement, so I'll assume it's your opinion.
Certainly not mine, I've helped build M$$ server rooms in multiple countries , none of them looked at flywheels. I did see the video of a flywheel take off 1/2 Big Daddy Don's foot though.

Please try to keep posts fact based.

Bruce S

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joestue

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 11:20:05 AM »
so for what its worth i interpreted the comment about flywheels as applying to battery backup for the whole grid.

we are still far from using flywheels in personal cars for the purpose of regenerative braking, and perhaps that will happen, but flywheels are the lowest energy dense, most dangerous, least efficient method of storing bulk power.

superconducting levitating flywheels have a chance at working in a vacuum if you don't want to loose 10% of your power per day.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 12:40:34 PM »
Speaking about Hybrids, I worked on one today. I was just doing maintenance on the IC side and had to reset some service alerts.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 12:48:33 PM »
Speaking about Hybrids, I worked on one today. I was just doing maintenance on the IC side and had to reset some service alerts.
See how that works out ;-). Which one? The Chevy dealer has "family" that works at one of the EHs, he's going to let us borrow a wrecked one to have a look inside and such. Wasn't having anything to do with just little ole me asking, but have the FF trainers show up; know that's a different story.

Cheers
Bruce S

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JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 01:03:56 PM »
Ya pretty neat. I was working on a 2011 Toyota Highlander. I was a member of SAE when the hybrids first came about and had access to the original patent. Basically the automatic transmission drives the vehicle when its not being powered by the IC engine. What they did was to superimpose the clutch packs and planetary gear sets with 3 phase AC motors actually its an ingenious design.

Just so jlsoaz is not confused OP means original poster.

 

MattM

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 02:54:55 PM »
Every energy storage medium loses energy over time.  Flywheel technology doesn't have to use space age material, but if you're aiming for raw price then it is not the most inexpensive.  And because friction is it's enemy, maintenance has to be done on it periodically.  But the worst friction comes from the effects of a flywheel acting as a big gyroscope.  As the earth rotates the wheel resists turning with the earth.  Unless you figure out a 3-dimensional gimball-mount, that's always going to be a technical hurdle.

Flywheels aren't uncommon in server closets by any means.  If you haven't seen them than it's your opinion.  They aren't terribly expensive and have been around for two decades.

Flywheel technology is not accident free, but neither is any chemical battery.  When you are aiming for high energy density it is much more likely to have an accident.  I get it that flywheel technology isn't popular or sexy on this forum.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 04:07:35 PM »
to me,  the most interesting thing that has come out of electric vehicle  tech. is regenerative braking.

Back in the mid-80's Popular Science used to talk about it frequently.  Only instead of using it in cars with super compact flywheels it waited until cars with batteries.  Amazing that 'hybrid' cars really only shine when utilizing their regenerative braking, otherwise for most other purposes hybrids are a complete waste.  There is little reason regenerative braking doesn't proliferate across all modern vehicles.

Flywheel technology is relatively low tech.  Server rooms often use them for uninterrupted power supplies.  For something that could be massed produced for a fraction of its selling price, its patents policy that prevents their widespread usage.  At the current price they are impractical, but even then are price-competitive due to long lifespans and an ability to handle tens of thousands of full cycle duties without degradation.  I realize flywheels are frowned upon by some people here, but they are proven technology and can scale easily.  The single largest flywheel I've seen was around 40 foot in diameter and weighed something like 160 tons.  It was used with steam at 10 RPM to sustain well pumps operating around 1600 hp.  If the steam missed a few beats it would keep the pump arrays powered while fuel was restocked.  The pumps kept the miners from drowning.  K-I-S-S.

Flywheels have recently been used at some of the highest levels of racing. 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-KERS-and-how-it-is-used-in-Formula-One

With that being said, I think there might be safety and weight issues with flywheels that are not as concerning in stationary applications but have been more of a headwind in transportation applications.


SparWeb

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 04:31:42 PM »
Quote
George65
Anyone want to make some bets that EV's in 20 years will still be a minor player in the personal and business transport market?

Sure, I'll take you up on that:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149422.0.html

Can't deny there's a lot of hype about EV's, but that's just the times we live in. 
Every company has a public relations wanker and a facebook page, no matter what they sell.

People with a brain can work out the advantage to themselves of getting an electric car. 
It's already swung to my advantage to get one, by the numbers, though currently it's a used plug-in hybrid that fits the bill.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

joestue

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 04:48:51 PM »
Flywheels aren't uncommon in server closets by any means.  If you haven't seen them than it's your opinion.  They aren't terribly expensive and have been around for two decades.

useful for the 2 minutes it takes to get the generators online.

and its not that they are unpopular, its just that they have higher losses and cost more than lead acid batteries do.

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 05:39:25 PM »
Flywheels were supposed to be the thing that make urban busses economical in stop and go traffic, but none are actually in use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus  The Swiss developed a working model 70 years ago, but other ways of banking energy work better in practice. The biggest disadvantage being the one that is obvious to anyone who played with gyroscopes as a child, or someone who rides a motorcycle - the gyros make the bus hard to turn. Leaning into a turn on a motorcycle is acceptable. Having a bus full of paying passengers lean into turns, isn't.

I do not believe plug-in electric cars are going anywhere. The reason should be obvious to people my age. The Post Office and US government have big money to spend, but the General Accounting Office makes them document the logic behind their choices when making large purchases. If the US Post Office switched to plug-in electric vehicles, it would be time to sell your stuff and buy stock in the plugin EV car makers. If the Post Office doesn't want a plugin EV for mass use, then there must be a good solid $$$ reason.

Do local delivery providers buy pulg-ins? Nope. Chinese restaurants, pizza delivery, Uber Eats, etc? Nope. I do know of a local Chinese restaurant that did a veggie oil conversion to an older diesel for deliveries. I don't have to guess where he gets his fuel from.

MattM

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 06:33:00 PM »
Trains could use the EV technology to far better early use than cars.  Unlike cars, trains have an excess of braking so much that almost 15% fuel was saved by removing rear locomotives whose sole job was to maintain drag on the mid-section of the train so that the front locomotive wasn't being dangerously pushed as they went up and down and around curves.  The rear locomotives were replaced by new couplings between cars and regenerative braking.  Only instead of storing that energy they ran it into dump-loads of heat coils.  Wasted heat, yes, but significantly more efficient trains than ones using prior technology.

There are sections of track that have two dozen trains pass over per day, most of it intermodal traffic, driving the same daily routes with consistent car quantities driving the same nearly identical loads.  Perfect for EV applications.  Perfect for green energy applications.  And train cars spend significant idle time.  Imagine how much sun could be stored while idle 95% of their lives.  They could be feeding the line even while idle.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2017, 08:40:52 PM »
Reading through, a few more points:

- There is in fact a school of thought that non-pluggable hybrids are frustratingly limited.  They take advantage of regen braking and maybe stop-start to overcome the wasted energy of friction braking and idling respectively, but thhey are not able to plug in or sustain EV-only travel for many miles at high speeds).  Thus, they do not offer additional key advantages offered by true plug-in EVs.  These advantages include extraordinary step-change improvement in MPGE and the complete abandonment of fossil fuel power (obviously not guaranteeing this, but if the electric power is generated from non-fossil sources).

- There is in fact a school of thought that flywheels are worth considering as helpful in hybrid vehicles.  I've never been much of a fan due to safety and weight and perhaps other concerns, but I kind of respect the idea of keeping all possible helpful points on the table for consideration. 

fwiw, this article gives some curosry idea of one business effort to put flywheels in vehicles in the 90s, though I don't know that the article is really giving a full accounting of all factors.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/nov/19/business/fi-55325
Rosen Motors Folds After Engine's '50%' Success
Autos: Brothers' company failed to win the support of major car manufacturers, who chose to bet on other fuel technologies.
November 19, 1997|KAREN KAPLAN | TIMES STAFF WRITER