Author Topic: a few basic points about electric vehicles  (Read 3462 times)

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jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2017, 08:43:53 PM »
By the way, as of approximately the end of this year, the world is likely to surpass the 1m electric vehicles sold per year barrier.  An idea of this can be found here:

https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
https://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/2017-sales-chart-November-vfinal2.png

The numbers here depends on where one draws the line.  For example, if one insists that qualifying vehicles be able to do a minimum of 100 km/hr top speed, that yields some results.  110  or 120 km/hr yields more limited results.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2017, 09:21:55 PM »
When I was in collage and emissions were considered with all cars backed up in traffic jams that IC engines made a significant emissions while sitting in traffic jams.

Considering this hybrid cars/suvs can cut emission's while shutting down the IC engine while in a traffic jam.

This has been an apex that was reached, does anyone have any idea how many emissions have been reduced because the IC engine is not idling in traffic using a hybrid.     

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2017, 02:46:33 AM »

In as far as emotions go--- I can certainly see where some of it can come from.
There has been so much thrown out there as the next cure-all , that ya almost can't help but throw a fit when the news-boys get to talking. Fear mongering doesn't work anymore, just get us fact based information.

How many New, revoloutionary engines have been held out as the game changers that weigh 10 pounds, do 300HP, have 500Ft Lb of torque and get 164 MPG  just in the last 10 years.
How many have come within a bulls roar of production?   NIL.

When someone comes along not just trying to say this is what I have but rather push the whole thing on everyone and make out it is a hell of a lot it's not,  my BS detector trips a fuse.

The tactic of playing the poor hard done by victim card when someone disagrees with the particular agenda someone is trying to push is also a well worn and obvious one.
Disagreeing with an agenda is not a personal attack, that's a load of BS to garner sympathy in the fact of facts that do not gel with the mindset the "victim" wants to create.

The internet is not kindergarten and the people here are not children.
If people can't stand a bit of direct and conflicting conversation, then they need to grow the hell up.

I have also seen many times people come onto forums and flog a particular point or POV singularly and without participating in any other conversation.  When they don't get the support they are after, they have a hissy fit, cry hard done by and then disappear as fast as they arrived.

I have seen it before and it ALWAYS goes the same way so I get real suspect when I see the pattern starting yet again.

electrondady1

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2017, 06:39:22 AM »
i recall back in college ceramic engines were the hot ticket on the horizon. they went no where

SparWeb

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2017, 10:02:06 AM »
...or that so-called catalytic converter technology that everyone was up in arms about, whatever happened to that...?

...and electronic emissions controls.  Ha!  What a flash-in-the-pan...

...and don't get me started about leaded fuels.  What were they thinking, when they took the lead out of the gas?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »
George65;
I too have been alive long enough to see a ton of BS thrown out there as the next cure all. In another life, I was a professional mechanic , even owned and drove ProStock , so I've seen all manner of snake oil for Carb'ed vehicles.

I'm a realist, optimist , and to some extent an environmentalist. This last point is I know that mankind can't kill the earth, but merely make it unlivable by human standards.

However and more to the point the OP is trying to make: Lets talk facts, let's not throw multiple paragraphs of attacks at each other.
IF there's information posted, and it's seems outlandish, then the poster needs to post links to substantiate their claims.

A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2017, 11:16:08 PM »
...or that so-called catalytic converter technology that everyone was up in arms about, whatever happened to that...?

...and electronic emissions controls.  Ha!  What a flash-in-the-pan...

...and don't get me started about leaded fuels.  What were they thinking, when they took the lead out of the gas?

I do not understand your sarcasm and smart arse attitude when you are fundamentally belittling yourself when talking about something different to the point being made.
The things you point out are not ENGINES.   ::)

Furthermore the things you list have been responsible for a reduction in performance of the 100+ yo typical design.

They are simply additions or changes to fuels of engines that are still the same with pistons thrashing up and down just as the model T had and even vehicles before that going back to steam.
 The only engine that went into any production volumes that was fundamentally different was the rotary.
Nothing else has been different.
None of the revolutionary game changing breakthrough that are as I said touted to be fundamentally different in  lighter, more powerful, and hugely more economical as is touted every year.  NONE of these have ever got past the Press release even though it was promised we'd all be driving one so equipped because of the benefits the new engine offered.

Please, if you want to try and take the piss out of what people say and belittle their comments to elevate your own self importance, at least address the points made, not something totally and utterly different to suit your own agenda's which are not in the discussion.

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2017, 11:39:43 PM »
George65;
I too have been alive long enough to see a ton of BS thrown out there as the next cure all. In another life, I was a professional mechanic , even owned and drove ProStock ,

That's impressive.
You certainly have Big round fuzzy ones.
I have come no closer to that than standing next to those things launching off the firing line and that was out there on the edge for me.

There is a story amoung my friends of one guy who worked for a top fuel team ( along with a couple of other mates)  Who was always wanting to drive the car and offered to stand in ( made a pest of himself actually) when the regular driver got sick.  He had never driven anything other than a slowish street car on the track before.
He was put in something reasonable with 2 seats for a pass.

After a couple of guys helped him out and he regained Mobility and stopped regurgitating his toe nails, his tone changed a bit.   ;D

You are one interesting and widely experienced man Bruce. 

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2017, 12:02:34 PM »
...or that so-called catalytic converter technology that everyone was up in arms about, whatever happened to that...?

...and electronic emissions controls.  Ha!  What a flash-in-the-pan...

...and don't get me started about leaded fuels.  What were they thinking, when they took the lead out of the gas?

Hi - if you are being sarcastic -

Unlabeled sarcasm online, is, in my view, often a recipe for extended miscommunication.

Mary B

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2017, 03:30:08 PM »
Closest I came was a 10 second quarter mile Mustang I helped a friend build. 428CJ, 12:1 compression, barely streetable cam, and nitrous... first test run we raved against a friend on a KZ1000 motorcycle. He lost. When he caught up to us he said the front of the car was 3 feet off the ground for the first 200 feet... we did some suspension work after that to try and keep the front down!Top end speed was unknown, he backed down at 140mph when the front of the car started floating... 1970 Mach One's were not great for high speed runs on the open road!

George65;
I too have been alive long enough to see a ton of BS thrown out there as the next cure all. In another life, I was a professional mechanic , even owned and drove ProStock ,

That's impressive.
You certainly have Big round fuzzy ones.
I have come no closer to that than standing next to those things launching off the firing line and that was out there on the edge for me.

There is a story amoung my friends of one guy who worked for a top fuel team ( along with a couple of other mates)  Who was always wanting to drive the car and offered to stand in ( made a pest of himself actually) when the regular driver got sick.  He had never driven anything other than a slowish street car on the track before.
He was put in something reasonable with 2 seats for a pass.

After a couple of guys helped him out and he regained Mobility and stopped regurgitating his toe nails, his tone changed a bit.   ;D

You are one interesting and widely experienced man Bruce.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2017, 03:37:38 PM »
White Zombie electric car - Run 2: 10.400 @ 117.21 - PIR 2010/07/30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rVTIpS5zb4

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »
White Zombie electric car - Run 2: 10.400 @ 117.21 - PIR 2010/07/30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rVTIpS5zb4

For the next-gen Tesla roadster, they're claiming 8.8 seconds quarter mile:
https://www.tesla.com/roadster

I don't know if there are any videos out there, but there are some of it accelerating from 0. 

I think it's just inevitable that vehicle electrification offers a path to improvement in performance that is do-able for so many organizations and individuals.
This has already taken place on the race circuits. Back when the Elf-terrels where on the F1 tracks another car was blowing everyone away, they were using electric motors for better ground effects. They were subsequently banned for using more than one engine.
 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 12:53:01 PM by Bruce S »

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2017, 06:22:27 PM »

For the next-gen Tesla roadster, they're claiming 8.8 seconds quarter mile:
https://www.tesla.com/roadster

I think it's just inevitable that vehicle electrification offers a path to improvement in performance that is do-able for so many organizations and individuals.

Impressive to be sure  but I don't know about the " So many" individuals and organisations who could benefit from OR afford one.

"Founders Series Roadster reservations require an initial $7,000 credit card payment, plus a $319,000 wire transfer payment due in 10 days. Reservations are not final until the wire transfer payment is received."

There are a lot of Millionaires in the world who could afford them but I don't know how many people here will be able to.  Some are struggling to buy a used EV so this isn't really going to mean a lot to the average person.

Seems a great way for Elon to raise some much needed capital though with a down payment of $326 K and who knows if thats the total amount?
Even if I had won the $30M lotto last night, wouldn't catch me stumping up for one of those. The way Tesla work it could be 2 years before you got your vehicle with their " Hype it up now and have no real info about the thing like delivery date" type policy.
The way the company is bleeding cash and behind on delivery of promised models, There are a LOT of financial people whom have severe doubts if tesla will even be around this time next year.  Maybe thats something else we could take wagers on?

Still waiting to find out about the Tesla solar tiles launched, 6? months+ ago? No details of delivery, price, output or anything else on those. So far just another PR stunt to keep the gullible fans on side.  Lord knows if we ever will see the truck and the critical speccs on that.
One thing to make a truck, quite another to make it a viable piece of income earning equipment which is at the end of the day after all the hype and carry on exactly what they are.

So far predictions for this thing are a long way from good as well.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2017, 09:21:57 PM »

For the next-gen Tesla roadster, they're claiming 8.8 seconds quarter mile:
https://www.tesla.com/roadster

I think it's just inevitable that vehicle electrification offers a path to improvement in performance that is do-able for so many organizations and individuals.

Impressive to be sure  but I don't know about the " So many" individuals and organisations who could benefit from OR afford one. [...]

What i meant by "do-able" was that the car could be produced, not purchased.  I needn't have thrown individuals in along with organizations, but I had in mind wealthy entrepeneurs who choose to start car companies.  In other words, given the relative simplicity of designing and building an EV, the barriers to entry to being an automaker are arguably not as high as they used to be for internal combustion engine vehicles.

So, my comment was not intended to have anything to do with the buyers.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 09:26:27 PM by jlsoaz »

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2017, 09:42:15 PM »

So, my comment was not intended to have anything to do with the buyers.

History is littered with faild car companies whom had a great product but no buyers.

Completely pointless to have a car company ( or any business) without customers.
In actual fact, performance is well down on the criteria list for the majority of car buyers. Things that take way higher priority are looks and styling and how many cup holders the things takes. 2 local car companies with a LOT of tradition have gone down the gurgler here this year with many blaming their failure on too much focus on performance which is an old and outdated marketing idea.

You may not think it has anything to do with buyers but in the real world, it's ALL about the buyers.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2017, 03:22:34 PM »

So, my comment was not intended to have anything to do with the buyers.

[...]
You may not think it has anything to do with buyers but in the real world, it's ALL about the buyers.

Hi - I think most objective observers of this conversation will realize that I haven't said anything one way or the other about the importance of buyers, but was simply clarifying my previous comment about producers.  Have you noticed that this is the second post in a row where you have managed to misrepresent what I have said and then argue against a point I haven't actually made?  I have noticed this.  One name for this is straw man argumentation.

At the start of the thread I said:

"...For those who are interested in serious transportation discussion and relating it to the themes of this board, from where I sit, as time permits, that is of interest to me...."

My take on your posts for awhile is that you are not interested in serious discussion of electric vehicles as they may relate to this sub-forum (transportation) and this overall board.  I have tried on this thread and another to address one or two more points, but it has turned out to be a bad idea.  I'll revert to avoiding reading your points or responding, as possible.

Thanks for your time.

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2017, 03:39:42 PM »
Have you noticed that this is the second post in a row where you have managed to misrepresent what I have said and then argue against a point I haven't actually made?  I have noticed this.  One name for this is straw man argumentation.

If there are any " Straw man arguments" its the ones you are creating.

Please don't take your failure to adequately express your points and the subsequent misinterpretation to be a deliberate attempt to argue something not said.  If I misinterpret your points, ( twice)  it's because of YOUR failure to adequately relate what you are trying to say, not me trying to twist it.

You back my point with your own misinterpretation of a point someone was trying to make to agree with you and accused that as sarcasm in the wrong way.
You can ignore me all you like, that's your perogative and I prefer that rather than the endless one sided rainbows and sunshine you go on with about EV's. This is a classic trait of those whom are one track minded and only want people to agree with what they say not raise any counter points.

You may notice I acknowledge and even make  points that agree with your position and point out facts and questions about aspects which I see a problem. All you do is blow sunshine and rainbows at the ideal you want to push and stick your head in the sand at anything that is not agreeable to your position.  That's fine, up to you but don't put things back on people as their fault when it's YOUR lack of communication skills which cause the problem.

If you are so inclined to be completely one sided, you will learn a lot less and remain a lot more ignorant than if you took all valid points on board and were impartial to a situation rather than treating it like your child where you tried to hold them out as a little angel that did nothing wrong.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2018, 05:21:43 PM »
Hi - a few additional points occur that I have been mulling over for awhile, regarding electric vehicles and where and how they fit in:

- Some EV advocates, (or for that matter advocates of this or that transportation or energy technology) will sometimes go a bit overboard (in my view) trying to say they have "THE" answer to this or that issue (whether the issue is urban air pollution, pollution from mining fossil fuels, high prices of this or that fuel, claimed Carbon pollution, scarcity, storability, military or other security, or anything else).  In my view plug-in vehicle propulsion is not "the" answer to life, the universe and everything.  It has become (now that many of the kinks are worked out) a very good answer (both from a business standpoint and an environmental one) to some transportation issues.

One criticism or tempering point as to electric vehicles that I do think should be made more often is that light duty vehicle road-going transportation (whether renewable-powered or otherwise) is not the only form of transportation out there, and while it is a very prominent part of the present global mix, and may well remain that way going forward, it is not the only option.  Other options for passenger travel depending on locale include buses, inter- and intra-city rail and subway, walking, biking, conventional airplane, boat/sea, etc.  There will probably be a few in the future that are not presently common such as passenger short-hop air travel.  There is also some transport tech that is not commonly lumped in to the conversation elevators, escalators, airport-type walkway systems, etc.) For freight transportation, construction, mining, farming and such, there are some additional forms to consider such as semi-trucks and mining rail systems along with such as last-mile drone delivery of boxes.  In any event the point is that we are all familiar with light duty vehicles and it is fun to talk about them, but if discussing in the context of best and worst options for future transport (and if trying to avoid intellectual sloppiness) then it seems useful at least to bookmark that there are other ways to approach transportation discussion.

Further, a commitment to road-going transportation options also requires a commitment to building and maintaining roads and that brings with it additional financial, technological, pollution, aesthetic and policy considerations.

-  To re-acquaint myself with the themes of this board, I took a look here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,143583.0.html
 Topic: What is the www.fieldlines.com forum all about?  (Read 15716 times)
What is the www.fieldlines.com forum all about?
on: June 08, 2010, 02:43:56 PM

The Do-It-Yourself theme comes through and is a reminder to me that I am not directly into that (though certainly I do like learning from DIY folks, where possible).  That is I won't be making my own wind equipment (or solar panels, or electric vehicles, or EV charge stations, etc.) any time soon.  With that being said, I've gone out of my way to have a lot of mass-produced home energy equipment installled and I like learning what I can from do-it-yourselfers.

I suppose an oddball side-note is that I do like people who think independently and formulate their own ideas in philosophy of economics.  Calling this "do-it-yourself" economics might seem to disparage it and it is certainly not DIY in clean energy technology, but just making the side note.

- The "about" link also re-affirms that discussion of electric vehicles is clearly (and explicitly) within the forum discussion topics.

- In my view, electric vehicles are past that turning point that we see with renewable energy harvesting technologies and others, where they may once have been the province of a mixture of mass-production manufacturers and do-it-yourself hobbyists and others, they have transitioned to mass production.  The battle has been somewhat pained (the incumbent mass-producers of combustion engine vehicles didn't seem to want to get into EVs, even if there was evidence of under-served demand) but we are to some extent there.  A catalyst has been not only the rise of hard-charging upstart Tesla, but the strong push by China in the direction of mass-produced EVs.  Many of the incumbent established gasoline- and diesel-engine vehicle higher-volume manufacturers have engaged in at least a "defensive position" when it comes to plug-in vehicles though none of them yet have transitioned to selling a majority of vehicles with plugs.

- Perhaps there is some middle ground when it comes to DIY - one may not build one's own wind power machines, but one may get more involved than the next person in installing the equipment or devising solutions unique to one's property.  When it comes to electric vehicles, in participating in a local EV association I have seen some differences of opinion of the members.... some of them have built their own EVS and don't really want much to do with the newer mass-produced products, some of them are ok with both and some are more into just buying and using the newer mass-produced products.  Even with the purchase of a mass-produced EV, there is still some moderate pioneering spirit, such as choices around home charging, installation, whether and how to pair with home EV, monitoring data, whether to install batteries, etc.  V2G and V2X also are topics where a person buying an EV for their garage may get involved in some hands-on decisions, though I think in some aspects those topics are of questionable value whereas in other topics they make sense to me.

- As someone who over the last five years has driven a BEV (along with a gasoline vehicle) and more recently a PHEV, and as someone who started installing solar on his home about 13 years ago, I'd say that one of my major goals has been partially but not fully accomplished.  There is a spirit of "sticking it to the man" that comes with being able to harvest one's own energy from ambient sources and not only power one's own house but put it in a car and extend one's activity - all without having to make use of or pay for distant generating sources or refined fossil fuels.  A long time ago I heard one California advocate call this making the "PV-EV" connection.  I have been only partially able to get there, but I am on my way (partially powering my house and my vehicle with solar, and partially reaching my destinations on these sources of power).  I know people who have been covering all of their energy needs by solar energy, and reaching their destinations via electric vehicle, for more than a decade.  We are rapidly approaching the point (or have already arrived) where one does not have to be a millionaire to do this.  It is no longer a matter of purchasing a $100k vehicle and a $50k-$100k (or whatever) solar system, but there are now $40k BEVs on the market in the US that some (depending on their driving habits) can use roughly in the same way they used their gasoline vehicles, and power them with less expensive leased or owned solar systems.  There is no reason to believe these price points are the end of matters, so I think it is only a matter of a few more years when decent used BEVs will be on the market and when the overall cost for getting largely or entirely off the central utility and fossil fuel merry-go-round will be even less.

To be sure there are still really good questions as to whether (or to what extent) this will fly.  Will there be enough materials?  How much disruption will there be of local grids?  Is battery recycling going to be a viable thing?  At what volumes?  Could there be unforeseen consequences to mass global deployment of wind and solar energies?  etc.  However, PEVs are further along on a global basis than some here seem aware, including in answering some of the questions, and there are often many questions surrounding new technologies..... sometimes they end up being show-stoppers, sometimes they don't.  I personally think a good approach to keep perspective is that as time passes, some answers start to accumulate, .... it is not possible to take really good accurate guesses well ahead of time, but it has been useful to me to discuss and mull these matters over with others, and this tends to help me estimate what I think the answers will be.

This forum is not primarily an EV forum and I do respect this, but at the same time (and notwithstanding that some may not want to see any discussion at all, even if it is explicitly allowed) it sounds like there's some recognition by other forum participants that discussion of and awareness of pros/cons around electric vehicles can be valuable.  I have always been of the view that part of the value of installing an EV in one's garage (whether home-made or otherwise) is that it has a strong synergy with whatever wind or solar or other renewable energy one may have installed at one's property.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 05:26:10 PM by jlsoaz »

SparWeb

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 06:59:26 PM »
Well that link's a little blast from the past, thanks.
The FL board was set up to serve the DIY wind crowd, but it's evolved a lot since then.  20 years ago, there were very few commercially viable small wind turbines, solar panels cost 5X or more what they do today, and most DIY EV's used lead-acid batteries.  The disruptive technologies that changed all of these things existed at the time, but really hadn't yet taken off like they have today (read, they were more expensive).  Furthermore, a lot of laws and regulations and grants have changed since that time, making way for a widespread deployment of RE equipment that is completely engineered and professionally installed.  This is much like the dawn of electricity in the 20th century when all of the same things had to change to pave the way for that.

It is regrettable that some people overreact to hype and inflated claims.  This is an age of hyped claims - but that's another kind of rant.  I just keep digging to find the numbers.  Not just the claims but the experienced performance.  Kinda like the difference between an asking price and a selling price.  In cars, they ain't the same thing.

Nobody can see the future, but I do maintain that people are inventive enough and the world is rich enough to supply plenty of materials for a very long time.  If one material becomes scarce or costly then another becomes more economic instead.  There are so many technological choices made basically for scarcity's sake it's so hard to sort it all out.  That goes for technologies that enable EV's just like oil exploration and refining, so we can be sure to have both for a very long time.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

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george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2018, 07:11:25 PM »
and as someone who started installing solar on his home about 13 years ago,

How much solar have you installed?
Do I recall correctly somewhere you sai you had 2.5KW of panels up?

Quote

I'd say that one of my major goals has been partially but not fully accomplished.  There is a spirit of "sticking it to the man" that comes with being able to harvest one's own energy from ambient sources and not only power one's own house but put it in a car and extend one's activity - all without having to make use of or pay for distant generating sources or refined fossil fuels. 

I understand this VERY well.
For 15 years I have run my vehicles off waste Veg oil. Run generators and different engines off it as well and got immense satisfaction from that well beyond the cost savings.

I have enjoyed many inter/ intra state trips where the cost of fuel -may- have got as high as $30 for 2 weeks away and 3000Km of driving.
It's great to be able to load up, go wherever the heck you want and not have to worry about fuel or the cost thereof. I have taken equipment on longer trips so I can refuel along the way. Always a restaurant or take away somewhere with an oil drum out the back and here they are all pretty keen for you to take it.
An hour of collecting and processing can easily be enough for well over 1000KM of driving.

NOT trying to propose this is a transport solution because it's clearly not. It's OK for a few nutters like me willing to get their hands dirty doing it but there is literally not a drop in the oil ocean to power the whole vehicle fleet.

Quote
(and notwithstanding that some may not want to see any discussion at all, even if it is explicitly allowed) it sounds like there's some recognition by other forum participants that discussion of and awareness of pros/cons around electric vehicles can be valuable. 

Not seen ANYONE here expressing a position they don't want to discuss EV's but there sure has been some that DO NOT want have mention of any of the cons at all and try to bury them under the table with all sorts of allegations against those who do point out any of the less than favourable aspects.

I abhor one sided conversations about anything and to me it just makes the whole discussion a joke if you do not look at and accept the big and complete picture of a topic.

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I have always been of the view that part of the value of installing an EV in one's garage (whether home-made or otherwise) is that it has a strong synergy with whatever wind or solar or other renewable energy one may have installed at one's property.

It would seem to me though the logical ourse of action would be to first have enough solar to power the home and THEN use the excess to power the vehicle.
Not much point in trying to do both when you don't have enough power to satisfy the needs of either one?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 11:39:02 PM by george65 »

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2018, 08:33:10 PM »
Vaporware is the word used to describe something a company might promise is in the pipeline to discourage competitors from trying something like it. There is no real intent to produce, but the threat is enough to cause people to back off.

If I was Elon I would probably put out some vaporware just to keep people off balance. I would expect the same with GM or Toyota or Ford.

There is also a lot of just plain fraud going around because the media refuses to do basic fact-checking and the public lacks basic technical knowledge. When I was in engineering school 40 years ago, they taught us how to do estimation on a piece of scrap paper. If someone said they could build a car that ran on compressed air, we could do some quick calculations and determine the theoretical range and go "yeah that's doable" or "nope, never happen" or "it's possible, but why would you want to?."

That training is lacking these days. Or people have just become stupid. We have a lot of bad government for the same reason. People should be able to quickly figure out if they were being promised something that was possible, or something that sounds good but which there isn't the resources to pay for.

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2018, 01:02:21 AM »

If I was Elon I would probably put out some vaporware just to keep people off balance.

I think ELon is a master of this but not to keep the competitors off balance as he has a niche market with few if any competitors at all but I believe he does it to keep the tesla washed fan boys clamouring and no doubt pouring in their investment Dollars which he is burning through at a prodigious rate.

I think time is running out fast for him. If he does not start making some profit out of all his Hoo Haa,  his substantial loans are going to be due and he'll be defaulting on them. Once that happens, you can kiss your truck, roof tiles, model 3 and everything else promised,  good bye.
When teh ship does sunk, you can see how the fan boys will claim it's someone, anyone, else's fault but their self created electric god.

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There is also a lot of just plain fraud going around because the media refuses to do basic fact-checking and the public lacks basic technical knowledge.

I agree there is a shameful amount of fraud going on but it's nothing to do with ignorance or lack of fact checking, it's deliberate and completely calculated.  The media is so leftist these days they will say and do anything which pushes their cause.  I have repeatedly looked into things the media go on and on about and found  the truth to be easily found that the fact is completely the opposite to what they say and must know.  I have also seen things like video clips about certain storys Published then quickly dissappear when it conflicts with their agendas but then the video clips will come up again on non mainstream news and they will twist the clear facts some more.
It's nothing short of Criminal.

If they are not lying outright, they lie by omission as is the case so much with EV's.
The whole world is so greenwashed ATM the fall out when the fad is over and the reality of what they have done hits home, people are going to see how badly they were deceived. Of course, Like bell bottom jeans or a fad Band, No one will admit to ever having supported it and say they knew all along it was a crock.

Saw this with the whole Bio fuels thing, I said it all along when people thought FB was the be all and end all of business advertising and so it goes.

IF people were honest about their pet compulsion and admitted the downsides, they would get a LOT further with it. The truth comes out sooner or later so may as well admit it upfront, keep people on side who would be willing to work on and solve the problems than hide them then cause a heap of negative opinon and resentment that alienates everyone and kills the idea long term.


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When I was in engineering school 40 years ago, they taught us how to do estimation on a piece of scrap paper. If someone said they could build a car that ran on compressed air, we could do some quick calculations and determine the theoretical range and go "yeah that's doable" or "nope, never happen" or "it's possible, but why would you want to?."

Well I was never smart enough to go to engineering school but like the quick calculation I did on power consumption of EV's if they get to 5% of the vehicle sales in 5 years ( or even 10) If you look at facts instead of trying to kid yourself and treat everyone else like an idiot, the make or breaks in these ideas are not hard to see.

I remember it with Bio fuels. You only had to look up the amount of fuel used in the world, the yield per acre of various oil crops and see that to make the amount of oil required you'd have to plant a surface are the size of the oceans.
But still they carried on with the fantasy because there were investment dollars to be scammed from it.


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That training is lacking these days. Or people have just become stupid.

The population is being dumbed down to be stupid.
Seriously, look at what's on TV both as supposed " entertainment " and " News" . I seriously don't know how people can swallow 90% of what is on TV these days let along get all caught up and concerned about what bimbo celeb is sleeping with what ever brainless beefcake that can barely string a coherent sentence together.


The topic of EV"s should be like any other. People need to acknowledge the drawbacks as well as the assets not just ignore everything they don't want to hear about them and go on endlessly trying to champion them akin to sunshine and rainbows.

They have their advantages, they have their uses and addressing the drawbacks will only serve to raise Ideas and soloutions to improve them.

It's pretty basic. Which neighbour would you trust?, the one that constantly tells you everything is OK and nothing to worry about which you know isn't right and they dismiss your every concern , or the one that says You're right,  there is a problem I'm afraid but I'm trying to fix it.


Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2018, 12:45:33 PM »
George65;
I too have been alive long enough to see a ton of BS thrown out there as the next cure all. In another life, I was a professional mechanic , even owned and drove ProStock ,

That's impressive.
You certainly have Big round fuzzy ones.
I have come no closer to that than standing next to those things launching off the firing line and that was out there on the edge for me.

There is a story amoung my friends of one guy who worked for a top fuel team ( along with a couple of other mates)  Who was always wanting to drive the car and offered to stand in ( made a pest of himself actually) when the regular driver got sick.  He had never driven anything other than a slowish street car on the track before.
He was put in something reasonable with 2 seats for a pass.

After a couple of guys helped him out and he regained Mobility and stopped regurgitating his toe nails, his tone changed a bit.   ;D

You are one interesting and widely experienced man Bruce.
Sorry for taking so long getting back. Jan 1 is my b-day and I do as little as possible .
Experienced ? more luck that anything else. Usually I was the dumb guy saying sure I'll help out, or I was the guy small enough to crawl into tight spots.
I've seen those guys who would get out of the car with their eyes going in all directions. Best car I ever built and drove was a '74 Old Omega that I shoe horned a 455 gulping out of a Holley double pumper strapped to a 350turbo.  and street legal .

The rush of 160mph is awesome!! and a little scary.
I'm under no disillusion that EVs aren't faster, Amy's 48V scooter beats most hot-rods off the line here on our street.
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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2018, 12:49:55 PM »
Closest I came was a 10 second quarter mile Mustang I helped a friend build. 428CJ, 12:1 compression, barely streetable cam, and nitrous... first test run we raved against a friend on a KZ1000 motorcycle. He lost. When he caught up to us he said the front of the car was 3 feet off the ground for the first 200 feet... we did some suspension work after that to try and keep the front down!Top end speed was unknown, he backed down at 140mph when the front of the car started floating... 1970 Mach One's were not great for high speed runs on the open road!

George65;
I too have been alive long enough to see a ton of BS thrown out there as the next cure all. In another life, I was a professional mechanic , even owned and drove ProStock ,

That's impressive.
You certainly have Big round fuzzy ones.
I have come no closer to that than standing next to those things launching off the firing line and that was out there on the edge for me.

There is a story amoung my friends of one guy who worked for a top fuel team ( along with a couple of other mates)  Who was always wanting to drive the car and offered to stand in ( made a pest of himself actually) when the regular driver got sick.  He had never driven anything other than a slowish street car on the track before.
He was put in something reasonable with 2 seats for a pass.

After a couple of guys helped him out and he regained Mobility and stopped regurgitating his toe nails, his tone changed a bit.   ;D

You are one interesting and widely experienced man Bruce.
The 428 C's and Wedges were the ones to beat. Best I ever did was 10.8 and that was running 110Octane/methanol blend , brand new plugs and nothing more then me, the 5-point harness, and a prayer. That was a wild ride!!
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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2018, 12:59:04 PM »

For the next-gen Tesla roadster, they're claiming 8.8 seconds quarter mile:
https://www.tesla.com/roadster

I think it's just inevitable that vehicle electrification offers a path to improvement in performance that is do-able for so many organizations and individuals.

Impressive to be sure  but I don't know about the " So many" individuals and organisations who could benefit from OR afford one.

"Founders Series Roadster reservations require an initial $7,000 credit card payment, plus a $319,000 wire transfer payment due in 10 days. Reservations are not final until the wire transfer payment is received."

There are a lot of Millionaires in the world who could afford them but I don't know how many people here will be able to.  Some are struggling to buy a used EV so this isn't really going to mean a lot to the average person.

Seems a great way for Elon to raise some much needed capital though with a down payment of $326 K and who knows if thats the total amount?
Even if I had won the $30M lotto last night, wouldn't catch me stumping up for one of those. The way Tesla work it could be 2 years before you got your vehicle with their " Hype it up now and have no real info about the thing like delivery date" type policy.
The way the company is bleeding cash and behind on delivery of promised models, There are a LOT of financial people whom have severe doubts if tesla will even be around this time next year.  Maybe thats something else we could take wagers on?

Still waiting to find out about the Tesla solar tiles launched, 6? months+ ago? No details of delivery, price, output or anything else on those. So far just another PR stunt to keep the gullible fans on side.  Lord knows if we ever will see the truck and the critical speccs on that.
One thing to make a truck, quite another to make it a viable piece of income earning equipment which is at the end of the day after all the hype and carry on exactly what they are.

So far predictions for this thing are a long way from good as well.
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Most OTR use a 4-cyl AP , cute little things, fully loaded with 2 110A alternators, they sip fuel and still lite enough two people can pick it up. Though Diesel would be the best route to go, they use gasoline, since it's less prone to cold-weather starting issues.
 
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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2018, 01:10:31 PM »

For the next-gen Tesla roadster, they're claiming 8.8 seconds quarter mile:
https://www.tesla.com/roadster

I think it's just inevitable that vehicle electrification offers a path to improvement in performance that is do-able for so many organizations and individuals.

Impressive to be sure  but I don't know about the " So many" individuals and organisations who could benefit from OR afford one. [...]

What i meant by "do-able" was that the car could be produced, not purchased.  I needn't have thrown individuals in along with organizations, but I had in mind wealthy entrepeneurs who choose to start car companies.  In other words, given the relative simplicity of designing and building an EV, the barriers to entry to being an automaker are arguably not as high as they used to be for internal combustion engine vehicles.

So, my comment was not intended to have anything to do with the buyers.
There was/is a poster here that went through his entire build of his home-built EV truck. A little S10 pickup. With ALL of the miniaturization of electronics and the inventions of Arduino type controllers. I would tend to agree , but with all of the hoops that are in place. There might be a better market for kit-car EVs instead.
Mother Earth News had an online story of the 100mpg car, the steps and reasons he went through should be a must read for anyone looking into either route.

With the advent of ECMs, designing a vehicle shouldn't be impossible. It would be interesting to run the numbers.
I fear this isn't the route everyone's working towards though.

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george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2018, 03:53:25 PM »
It would be interesting to run the numbers.
I fear this isn't the route everyone's working towards though.

I have looked at doing an electric several times through recent years, especially after seeing some YT vids on them.
Unfortunately the cost is not justifiable for what you get at the end. A short range, limited use vehicle that you will have to pay a fortune to get engineering certification for registration and the impossibility of getting insurance.

NOTHING is cheap with building an electric and it would be a complete money pit with NO hope of ever regaining ones investment through any savings or resale.

When I can go to the local restaurant, pick up a drum of used veg oil, take it home and in an hour have the equivalent of 2000KWH of power that I can put in a cheap car that is legal and insurable and then drive the thing 1200Km with 5 people and a load of gear, that beats the hell out of an electric even on emissions and environmental concerns,  DIY electric makes no sense and has no justification at all.

Would electric cars aggravate your condition Bruce from a distance  say in your yard and they were a mile away or if you were driving on a highway and had a bunch of them around you?
Seems they would be an EMR bomb going around with all their systems and radiation.

Wonder if they could affect the health of other people having long term exposure?

Mary B

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2018, 03:57:52 PM »
What would be more practical for many would be a small 2 seater with enough trunk space for groceries and a 150 mile range. Make it super lightweight so less battery is needed. And keep the cost under $20k!

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2018, 04:05:23 PM »
Ive watched a few videos of that White Zombie race car have the battery bank literally explode... Im not sure if you should wear a pacemaker in one of those EV's.

One of my projects I have made a mosfet switching array, with an continuous load rating of 440amps@12dc. Although with the PWM im using its not that hard on it. the surge capability is over 1000amps dc.  The switching array has the heat sink and all made by me, it costs over a $1,000 to build wholesale.