Author Topic: a few basic points about electric vehicles  (Read 3403 times)

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george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM »
What would be more practical for many would be a small 2 seater with enough trunk space for groceries and a 150 mile range. Make it super lightweight so less battery is needed. And keep the cost under $20k!

I think something like that would fill a big market with the commuters going to and from work. Something for a here and there and room to stop and pick up some essentials on the way home as well as a bit of running round on the weekends for some stuff at the hardware etc.

That said, You'd have to do the numbers on what people spend on what I think would be a 2nd car and the running costs.  Any EV will still have rego and insurance so it's really up to fuel and any other incentives an EV may get in a particular local.

When one mentions lightweight, the first thing I think of is safety and passing the various crash tests. People worry about Petrol leakage and LPG always had that stigma but a battery pack would be something I'd have to look at more to put my concerns aside. I would worry about electrocution firstly and then secondly, Fire or noxious fumes if the pack were ruptured.

Like I have said, I think the introduction and adaptation of EV's is a very complex one.  In this case I think it would be a matter of " Why should I pay $20K for an EV over a small used car for $5K.  there can be a lot of lofty ideals put forward but I think when it comes to a second car for  a family for the breadwinner or the Mother to run around, the only thing they will really be worried about is the $$.

They are going to be a lot more worried about paying the bills at the end of the month than any globull warming that may happen in 50 years time. There will certainly be an amount of Idealists buying EV's but the real market forces will be looking at the $$ and if the EV's can't make a clear case for themselves, I think it will be a real hard push to win people over with a new and unknown technology.


george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2018, 05:24:02 PM »
Ive watched a few videos of that White Zombie race car have the battery bank literally explode...

Geez, missed that!
I'm sure that the packs would be well limited in a raod car to prevent that but what about in a collision  if the pack was squashed or punctured?

I was using one of those jump starter packs a few weeks ago that suddenly self combusted. The thing was small enough to fit in a shirt pocket  but just the smoke the thing emanated pretty much filled my and the 2 neighbours 1 acre blocks.  I ran up wind because I am of the belief the smoke from those burning packs is NOT a good thing to be breathing. IF you were in a vehicle and the battery was going up in smoke, could be that which killed you rather than the accident itself.

I was very lucky the thing didn't do a lot more damage. I had it sitting on the car battery when it started smoking  and then caught fire. Lucky it didn't cause the car battery to explode.  I then had to endure putting my hand in the flame to unclip it from the battery terminals to hike it across the yard where it could burn and die in spectacular style.

I have seen a lot of Vids where those RC packs go off like an incendiary devise if you puncture them. I would hope EV's use something different but if they have any ability to burn/ self destruct like that, I'd be very worried.


Quote
One of my projects I have made a mosfet switching array, with an continuous load rating of 440amps@12dc. Although with the PWM im using its not that hard on it. the surge capability is over 1000amps dc.  The switching array has the heat sink and all made by me, it costs over a $1,000 to build wholesale.

I can Imagine that something to handle the several hundred volts EV's seem to favour would only be proportionally more expensive still.
Motors and batteries are the obvious expenses in an EV but I'm sure the cost of cable and connectors would be significant as well.

All good if as an investment you can recoup your costs in savings but if the ROI is too long or just not there then it's a very expensive indulgence.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2018, 05:33:28 PM »
Good reply  george65

Tesla does a very good job, burrowing the news when the lithium banks goes up in smoke, and your right the fumes are toxic...

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2018, 06:19:07 PM »
This why I like the silver "iron oxide" battery's, hey if they can get 25 "full" deep cycle charges then 100 or more are possible. Just think about how much R&D has been put into lithium ion battery's. What if they put that much work into silver battery's. They are known for there remarkable load tests. much safer technology and since the silver is recoverable the used banks are just as valuable silver-wise. And they don't blow up when there overloaded or overheated.   

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2018, 06:35:13 PM »
hey if they can get 25 "full" deep cycle charges then 100 or more are possible. 

Probably  silly question but can they get more partial charges?
If you limited them to 50% could you get say 35 cycles or is it any charge/ discharge event regardless of DoD?

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2018, 06:39:52 PM »
Yes they absolutely could George-
 
==========================
Alright going to do this once more, if you use "silver iron/oxide" DC batteries there is no reason to invert the power to 3 phase, using this motor http://www.google.com/patents/US8261575 the mosfet array gives precision speed control using dc and you can pump as many amps as you could ever want...
=========================== 

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2018, 06:49:33 PM »
Uknow a lot of people talk about regenerating braking, and that's fine...

Electric motors (all) make heat, what about regenerating heat lost.... If you look at the patent closely you could use Freon or steam and the like to cool the motor then a turbine could condense it while driving an auxiliary small generator.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2018, 09:33:07 PM »
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Hi Bruce - in general if you'd like to discuss something I've actually written I'll be ok to defend my point of view or amend it, as time permits.  I can't defend what I haven't thought or said.  In this instance you seem to be disagreeing not with something I've said, but with some misrepresentation of it by another poster.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2018, 09:38:15 PM »
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a14455805/chinese-tesla-killer-suv-es8/.                 

Yes, I have to be a fan of what NIO has accomplished so far.  Maybe this is just showy, but here they are setting a record for a certain vehicle type (or near-record since McLaren kind of swooped in later to claim the record) at the Nurburgring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4MRydmz86E&t=94s
NIO EP9 Breaks the Nurburgring Nordschleife Lap Record - May 12 2017

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2018, 09:43:00 PM »
What would be more practical for many would be a small 2 seater with enough trunk space for groceries and a 150 mile range. Make it super lightweight so less battery is needed. And keep the cost under $20k!

Hi - I'm not quite sure as to the exact number of years away we are, but I think we'll get there.  I figure about 45-50 kWh to make a light-weight BEV that will get about 150 EPA miles.  If/when we get down to about $100-$150 per kWh at the pack level, then that's between $4.5k-$7.5k for the pack.  A good chunk of change, but it should be possible to construct a safe good-handling 2-seater around that for under $25k (wild-guessing).  Not sure about under $20k.  Note also that battery degradation and vehicle value retention will be of some importance.

Maybe an anecdotal way to measure a bit of progress toward this would be to monitor efforts like this, though I suspect this doesn't fit the bill in too many ways including projected cost:

http://www.motoringfile.com/2017/12/04/2019-electric-mini-e-expect/
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 09:48:49 PM by jlsoaz »

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2018, 10:03:36 PM »
Uknow a lot of people talk about regenerating braking, and that's fine...

Electric motors (all) make heat, what about regenerating heat lost.... If you look at the patent closely you could use Freon or steam and the like to cool the motor then a turbine could condense it while driving an auxiliary small generator.

For many years there have been attempts to harvest waste engine heat using solid state technology, but I think at least one stumbling block has been efficiency.  I've heard 5% once or twice.  This page gives between 5 and 8%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

This page gives some idea of one effort about 10 years ago (search term bmw)

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/903129/000119312509029234/0001193125-09-029234-index.htm

I agree that it would be good to continue to look for ways to turn heat (whether from an engine or battery pack or whatever) into useful power and thus increase overall system efficiency.  This effort to do it with solid state technology is just one approach I guess.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2018, 10:25:18 PM »
There are a lot of good videos out there that show the competitiveness of electric vehicles in drag races and a few videos which start to show their competitiveness on longer fast drives.  Many of them show the Tesla Model S (a large four-door luxury Sedan) besting Ferraris and the like in the quarter mile.  Sometimes the Tesla loses, but it always gets me that it isn't often mentioned that it's a four door luxury sedan competing against 6-figure "supercars" and such. 

this one shows the Tesla in a good light  though it glosses over the fact that if you really go looking for a street-legal production vehicle to best the Tesla in a quarter mile, you can find it (skip to near the end for the actual race).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvk18vx-nrY
World's Greatest Drag Race 7!
Motor Trend Channel
Published on Sep 21, 2017


There are also electric supercars such as the Rimac that probably can go even faster.  Just for fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQQwOI5qoJw
RIMAC CONCEPT ONE VS PORSCHE 918 SPYDER DRAG RACE! BANGIN' GEARS - Ep. 4 PART 3 of 3
1,200,847 views
Salomondrin
Published on Oct 9, 2016

As to more affordable EVs, I'm assuming that some here are aware that in the 2017-2018 time period at least three prominent four-door under-$40k 200 mile BEVs are coming out (Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3 are already out and Nissan Leaf longer-range version is in process of coming out).

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »
It's just a trial, so no telling if it will work, or to what extent, but I think an example of the fact that the grid and power situations are not static but are evolving, even as EVs are deployed and so even if EV deployment causes issues here and there, it is reasonable to expect that (to an extent) developments in grid and power will meet that deployment partway.  This doesn't forestall that there could be significant problems, but it raises at least the possibility that they may not be as frequent or severe as the worst case scenarios that some envision.

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/press-releases/ricardo-supports-ground-breaking-trial-to-unlock-g
Ricardo supports ground-breaking trial to unlock grid capacity for electric vehicles
03 January 2018

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2018, 10:00:26 AM »
Long term exposure isn't a problem for anyone I know of that has a pace-maker or Tenz units.
The EMF isn't as strong as one would think.
My old boss rode in the 3-wheeled areorider we brought back from Amsterdam and had no problems with his pace-maker.
Most of the newer higher priced units (>3000USD ) are using AC motors that are up in the 36-48VAC range.  http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html
Here's a link to the website where it was built and bought from. There sued to be picks of it on the forum.
Last I saw it, it was making its way across IOWA with the NiCd packs I built for it. Granted, there's no room for more than one person but it's ride-able even in rain and snow. A set of roll-up solar panels topped off the batteries when out and about, along with a 110Vac plugin when available.
I had even built a little 20cc 4-stroker motor to hitch up to the back-end for power assist.

That trike was purchased way back in 2004? It even was featured in the Chili cookoff  contest here. We used it for cooling fans.
This tells me building and designing EVs is not out of the realm of possibilities. With the advent and much lower cost of batteries, distance merely  needs to be factored into the equation.
It's also well known that an ICE will get better mpg when throttled at a specific range. This is the reason why I prefer hybrids.
The one forum member proved their worth by making use of his hybrids' ICE to keep his cabin's batteries topped off.

So back when our area lost all power for days during the ice storm of 2006, people with a hybrid could've done the same.
I had a backup genset and solar panels to keep us warm, not to mention a diesel under the hood with 45gals of cleaned oil.

I think the forum member Jerry built his own S10 EV, using 144V setup? Didn't seem to worry too much about distance( could be wrong about the distance part).

These little obstacles can be over come with engineers who are open minded about how to fix a need.
 
OP>>
Apologies for feeding the race car monster!! I realize it is taking this post in a tangent that is way off .
I'll do my best to get back to the questions at hand.
 

   
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Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »
It's just a trial, so no telling if it will work, or to what extent, but I think an example of the fact that the grid and power situations are not static but are evolving, even as EVs are deployed and so even if EV deployment causes issues here and there, it is reasonable to expect that (to an extent) developments in grid and power will meet that deployment partway.  This doesn't forestall that there could be significant problems, but it raises at least the possibility that they may not be as frequent or severe as the worst case scenarios that some envision.

That's an interesting read, however, from reading all about DamonHD's openTRV stuff , I can't see why it is going to take so long?
Most of the stuff they're talking about taking so long is already been tested and from memory most of London is already on smart meters.

I have a suspicion , but will hold out for now.

Cheers
Bruce S
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george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2018, 04:41:35 PM »
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Hi Bruce - in general if you'd like to discuss something I've actually written I'll be ok to defend my point of view or amend it, as time permits.  I can't defend what I haven't thought or said.  In this instance you seem to be disagreeing not with something I've said, but with some misrepresentation of it by another poster.

For your clarification,  I don't believe this was anything more than a general comment on the topic in agreement with what was said.
I see nothing that was attributed to you nor that anyone was under any misconception as to whom said what.  As you had not posted anything for many comments previous, I'm sure that anyone reading can see it was I whom made the comment on my own and not linked to you. I am at a loss as to see why you would think that the comment was anything to do with you so I cannot pinpoint what you might have misunderstood to explain it any more clearly. Is English your first language or do you have a different native Tongue?

You lambasted me for not understanding what you were trying to say but this is the same thing where perhaps you have become confused as well over the point being put forward. I do not think you are trying to twist anything any more than I was when I misinterpreted your comments.

It happens but it is more likely to be a simple misunderstanding as you have made rather than anything with an ulterior motive as I sure you were not thinking of either.
If you are not sure of any comments made, particularly the intent of what I say, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to explain with precision and detail to clear up any ambiguity you may have.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2018, 05:02:25 PM »
Im going to have to step in here....

All these EV posts as someone mentioned are getting personal. Bruce is out there and we need his balance.

What do you want George, your own section, because we can do that.

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2018, 05:28:15 PM »
No, I can start a new thread but I don't see why I can't express differing opinions to the ones people want to one sidedly champion.

As far as being personal, I have got every bit as good as I have got including a thinly veiled and well worded PM that amounted to a threat to ban or have me banned which is exactly where I'm sure the " Someone" you speak of whom is an EV proponent has been in your ear and prompted you to this. Seems you were happy with what I had written till now having seen my posts participating in the same conversations and agreeing with some of what I said. 

I have tried to revise my posts to be as impersonal as possible and offer help with misunderstandings but it seems there are those here that are going to be upset if the agenda they want to push isn't agreed with in it's entirety.
If you desire the EV topic to be a promotional exercise for the subject, please just let me know.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2018, 05:39:00 PM »
Whoa whao,,,,

Quote
As far as being personal, I have got every bit as good as I have got including a thinly veiled and well worded PM that amounted to a threat to ban or have me banned which is exactly where I'm sure the " Someone" you speak of whom is an EV proponent has been in your ear and prompted you to this. Seems you were happy with what I had written till now having seen my posts participating in the same conversations and agreeing with some of what I said. 

Nobody is getting banned, infact they know I wont support it. I talked with DanF the other day and this has been after the forum was purchased and assigned to me.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:48:24 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2018, 05:47:31 PM »
I do like what you say George, pm me anytime. You may be right as far as me not catching on until they do whatever.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:01:44 PM by JW »

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2018, 05:59:17 PM »

Thank you JW.
Please delete your email as I know it's a risk for spamming.

I really have nothing to talk to you about.  The complaints are about me it seems, I don't have any problems with anyone else I need to discuss with you. I gave the PM i got due consideration which was to ignore it for the impudent and self serving bit of crap it was.l I'm sure  you can go into my message box and see it for yourself.

If i'm not toeing the line then I'm sure you will let me know and what you want me to do.
Other than that all I wish to do is to be able to put things as I see them and express my own opinion within the rules rather than like this be like a lot of places where there is only one correct way to think and what opinion to have.

I get the impression this is not your mandate so I have nothing to complain to you about.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2018, 06:04:02 PM »
Quote
I gave the PM i got due consideration which was to ignore it for the impudent and self serving bit of crap it was.l I'm sure  you can go into my message box and see it for yourself.

That may be  possible but we don't have time for that, the only thing I watch is the admin list.

SparWeb

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2018, 09:26:30 PM »
Jeez, George.
Nobody hates you
Nobody wants you banned
Nobody thinks you're an idiot

Stop acting like everyone's attacking you.  None of us are attacking you.  Nobody.

When you lash out at everyone, including the people sticking up for you - what can we do?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

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jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2018, 09:45:01 PM »
Im going to have to step in here....

All these EV posts as someone mentioned are getting personal. Bruce is out there and we need his balance.

What do you want George, your own section, because we can do that.

Hi JW:

Speaking as the original poster of this thread and a previous thread that was stopped:

- Generally, as mentioned, if someone does want to get my take, or disagree, or whatever, please just quote or reference directly whatever it is I have said that is agreed or disagreed, and I can politely respond, as time permits.
- I do think that my basic approach to this is correct and probably within the spirit of this and other forums, which is that if you really just can't find much of a toe-hold for constructive discussion in what someone else is saying to you, then maybe just leave it alone.... so that's what I'm doing.  .... going through and finding a toe-hold here and there for interesting discussion..... I don't see the problem in that.
- I am not sure but I think I have given my reasons why I can't spend copious time reading through certain posts, or responding to them, notwithstanding if they directly quote me.
- As far as I know, EVs, in various ways, are a legitimate topic of discussion, as mentioned in a pinned thread.
- We are all part of a community and I don't want to be needlessly negative or dwell on a disagreement with someone.  I will not read through his various posts for hours, but will try to respond to George65 on one or two points once in awhile.

george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2018, 10:09:21 PM »
Jeez, George.
Nobody hates you
Nobody wants you banned
Nobody thinks you're an idiot

Stop acting like everyone's attacking you.  None of us are attacking you.  Nobody.

When you lash out at everyone, including the people sticking up for you - what can we do?

Don't do anything! This is the second time you have gone on with this rubbish!
Don't " Stick up for me", I don't need it. If no one is attacking me, why would I need you or anyone else to stick up for or defend me as you mentioned in the first place?
The only person that seems to have a problem and making trouble with me is YOU. It was YOU who was talking about me being banned and a lot of other 2 faced crap so don't play innocent now.

 Don't send me anymore PM's either because I'm not interested in your self serving BS.
If you don't like what I say because it does not fit with your agenda's, tough. Don't try to make out my responses to your personal and needless comments as emotional or whatever other way you try to spin doctor it when you, again, are the one airing the dirty laundry in public because you don't like the fact I ignored your private attempt at stirring the pot.

Now would you care to drop your innocent act and get on with some useful discussion or try and play the saint some more?
I'll ignore your comments and you can do the same for me given the consternation they cause you.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2018, 07:56:40 AM »
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Hi Bruce - in general if you'd like to discuss something I've actually written I'll be ok to defend my point of view or amend it, as time permits.  I can't defend what I haven't thought or said.  In this instance you seem to be disagreeing not with something I've said, but with some misrepresentation of it by another poster.

Somewhere somehow, someone things I've taken exception to what was said. NOW there's attacks on people.
I am trying to get this post back on track without going into GM mode.
For now I'm going to act like a simple forum member and ask how or where did you {jlsoaz} think I was attacking anything you posted? I merely stated that I agreed with georg65 that this electric vehicle was out of my priced range.

The other part was about the company in London that seems to have an agenda that is close to some of what george65 has posted so many times (companies talking the talk all the while asking for money with NO intent of ever showing a product)
those are the suspicions I wrote about.

Let us ALL try to get back at the posted discussion
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2018, 08:34:30 AM »
Im going to have to step in here....

All these EV posts as someone mentioned are getting personal. Bruce is out there and we need his balance.

What do you want George, your own section, because we can do that.

Hi JW:

Speaking as the original poster of this thread and a previous thread that was stopped:

- Generally, as mentioned, if someone does want to get my take, or disagree, or whatever, please just quote or reference directly whatever it is I have said that is agreed or disagreed, and I can politely respond, as time permits.
- I do think that my basic approach to this is correct and probably within the spirit of this and other forums, which is that if you really just can't find much of a toe-hold for constructive discussion in what someone else is saying to you, then maybe just leave it alone.... so that's what I'm doing.  .... going through and finding a toe-hold here and there for interesting discussion..... I don't see the problem in that.
- I am not sure but I think I have given my reasons why I can't spend copious time reading through certain posts, or responding to them, notwithstanding if they directly quote me.
- As far as I know, EVs, in various ways, are a legitimate topic of discussion, as mentioned in a pinned thread.
- We are all part of a community and I don't want to be needlessly negative or dwell on a disagreement with someone.  I will not read through his various posts for hours, but will try to respond to George65 on one or two points once in awhile.

Hi JW, on my last point, I am going to have to take this back; it is too ambitious.  I have gone back and read through some of this thread, and the comments that were made (to me) were toxic enough so it just seems best for me to continue to make my points as possible, as constructively as possible.  I will have to continue toignore posts that don't seem to be to the topic or to which I cannot find a way to respond constructively and efficiently. 

However, I will try to meet the discussion partway, to address a part of the thread that has been particularly in contention:

I have been mis-portrayed as not taking vehicle affordability into account.  On what basis?  What did I say that led to this?  Ok, actually I did not express myself perfectly (and there is actually an entire strange sentence about Formula 1 in one of my posts that doesn't sound like me, maybe it was the result of poor pasting or editing?  I don't know?).  So, anyway:

Discussing an outrageously expensive exclusive vehicle on the order of a Ferrari type price (and performance), and discussing some production-side considerations, does not necessarily mean that a discussion participant has lost track of mainstream middle-class vehicle-purchasing considerations.  Maybe some of us just like to take a moment to discuss wonderful vehicle performance?  Overall, while it is absolutely true that most new EVs at this point still cost more than their fossil fuel powered siblings, their cost-competetiveness is improving while their range is also improving.  In the US, BEVS that cost USD $40k and travel 200+ miles on a charge are being sold as we speak.  Vehicles at this price point only traveled about 80 miles when they first came out 6 years ago.  BEVs which travel around 100-150 miles are I think being sold for less.  PHEVs which cost only a few thousand more than their Fossil fuel siblings are in some cases selling well.  The used market is maturing so that people like myself, who would have a harder time affording a new vehicle of any sort, can start to consider buying a used BEV or PHEV.

I see the EV markets as somewhat similar to where solar was 10 years ago or so.  You still had critics hanging on and making facile unending comments as to how it was not cost competitive and implying that it never would be and (further) implying that advocates were oblivious to real-world business considerations.  However, some folks understand that "presently expensive" does not mean "expensive forever".  As we have seen, solar has become more cost-competitive in some ways, depending on the use.

EVs are presently expensive.  This past year and going forward over the next few decades, different classes of EVs will start to reach price parity (or close to it) with comparable fossil fuel vehicles.  Further, they will in some cases help save owners (or lessors or renters or sharers or riders) money in lower fuel and maintenance costs than might come up for fossil fuel vehicles.  To be sure, they may still have their drawbacks (costing people time at refueling stations) and they aren't for everyone.  It is though a very rapidly moving area. 

I took some time to illustrate what I think is a really interesting point (that the technology is in some ways so extraordinary that even just a new startup can create a road-legal vehicle faster than a top-of-the-line Ferrari).  I think this point is useful to know and understand.  It does not necessarily mean that I or anyone else who makes it is clueless or ignoring or in any way failing to take into account about basic cost, business or economics considerations in the auto business.

On March 31, 2016, Elon Musk and Tesla started taking orders for the Model 3, .... a BEV that is designed to be competitive in price, style and other ways with the BMW 3-series or similar vehicles.  Over the next few days or so, they received more than 300,000 deposits, sight-unseen.  It was, in my view, an historic development ..... one of the most important days in US and maybe global business history.  Never again would detractors be able to say "at those prices and with those specs, nobody wants them".  Yes, actually they do.  Tesla may even yet fall flat on its face trying to fill the orders (it is arguably rare for an automotive upstart to make it as far as they have already), but, regardless of what happens with them, they have proven a point that I think can never be taken away.

One other general point for now.... Other than myself and Paar, are any other forum participants past or present drivers of production EVs, or at least had a test-ride experience?  I'm not sure that some of the more critical comments made reflect a really deep understanding of the pros and cons of EV ownership.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 08:52:20 AM by jlsoaz »

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2018, 08:44:37 AM »
Quote
a previous thread that was stopped:

That was a mistake on my part.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2018, 08:48:38 AM »
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Hi Bruce - in general if you'd like to discuss something I've actually written I'll be ok to defend my point of view or amend it, as time permits.  I can't defend what I haven't thought or said.  In this instance you seem to be disagreeing not with something I've said, but with some misrepresentation of it by another poster.

Somewhere somehow, someone things I've taken exception to what was said. NOW there's attacks on people.
I am trying to get this post back on track without going into GM mode.
For now I'm going to act like a simple forum member and ask how or where did you {jlsoaz} think I was attacking anything you posted? I merely stated that I agreed with georg65 that this electric vehicle was out of my priced range.

The other part was about the company in London that seems to have an agenda that is close to some of what george65 has posted so many times (companies talking the talk all the while asking for money with NO intent of ever showing a product)
those are the suspicions I wrote about.

Let us ALL try to get back at the posted discussion

Hi - I just posted a general comment on the points without having first read this post, but in any event:

Basically, George65 made points about vehicle affordability while falsely coming up with the idea that I was oblivious to considerations of vehicle affordability.  Maybe you missed that?  I don't recall if I saw anyone say anything about it, so in my mind was the possibility that others actually bought into this.  I took your statement of "going with George65 on that one" to mean that you had bought into the idea that he had in some way contrasted with my point of view in advocating for vehicle affordability - he didn't.... he contrasted with some sort of fantasy of my point of view.  In any event, if you didn't intend to make any point as to my point of view, then that was my misunderstanding.  Please see my other post today for some of my own thoughts as to vehicle affordability.  I can't afford a Tesla either.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2018, 09:22:16 AM »
I gotta go with george65 on this one,I certainly cannot afford one.

Hi Bruce - in general if you'd like to discuss something I've actually written I'll be ok to defend my point of view or amend it, as time permits.  I can't defend what I haven't thought or said.  In this instance you seem to be disagreeing not with something I've said, but with some misrepresentation of it by another poster.

Somewhere somehow, someone things I've taken exception to what was said. NOW there's attacks on people.
I am trying to get this post back on track without going into GM mode.
For now I'm going to act like a simple forum member and ask how or where did you {jlsoaz} think I was attacking anything you posted? I merely stated that I agreed with georg65 that this electric vehicle was out of my priced range.

The other part was about the company in London that seems to have an agenda that is close to some of what george65 has posted so many times (companies talking the talk all the while asking for money with NO intent of ever showing a product)
those are the suspicions I wrote about.

Let us ALL try to get back at the posted discussion

To add a point, upon consideration:

It appears that you did not have my points in mind when replying to George65, and I badly misinterpreted your comment, and I apologize.

Also, on the topic of affordability, in reviewing my comments, I was not as clear as I should have been (including one bit that just doesn't make sense at all, perhaps I got confused in editing the html or something), and so I apologize to George65 for failing to address his points better, in a way that would have been more in-line with constructive forum discussion and would have led to less misunderstanding.

jlsoaz