Author Topic: AArons VAWT design  (Read 14236 times)

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aaronseattle

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AArons VAWT design
« on: December 16, 2012, 07:38:48 PM »
I got the Idea for this design from a friend, from here on known as Dan. He is a great guy, lots of interesting Ideas just not mechanically inclined. This is where I come in to play.

The concept I worked from was a US patent, now expired. It is combination of an inner rotor and outer ring of angled stationary blades. Pretty simple right? Whell it wasn't as simple as I thought considering all I had to work with were pics on a patent.

The Inner turbine from the patent consists of 8 “L”, 90 Deg., shaped blades. The inner point of the blade pointing to the center of the turbine. That was pretty easy to figure out how to construct. So I made 2 inner turbines. 1 using the “L” shape blades and 1 using 6” x 1/8” wall, Sch. 40 I think, PVC cut into 1/3's.  I tested both and decided to go with the PVC cup blades.

The outer ring of blades consisted of 36 evenly spaced flat blades angled to direct the wind at the inner blades. The angle of the blades in a circle created a venture affect. Low pressure to high pressure in and    high pressure to low pressure out. This also created a cavity that could only handle a given volume of air flow. Once this volume capacity is reached the air no longer enters the turbine and goes around the turbine. There is a maximum velocity for the inner turbine. I haven't figured out what that is yet for my 27” by 27” turbine.
I strapped the completed turbine in my truck and got it up to 80 mph and was still climbing. I didn't need a ticket so I slowed down. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
 
I tried several different blade designs for the outer ring. A flat, wedge and double wedge. I researched wing designs and decided to go with the double wedge. I got the highest velocity spin with the inner turbine using this design.

Tools used for the construction. A table saw, drill press and E-machineshop. The wind source was a small 3 speed Stanley blower. And a bicycle odometer calibrated to the size of my inner turbine. The odometer was a very helpful and cool idea I found on the net.

I used the drill press like a router to make all the round parts with a 1/8” dremel bit. Top, bottom and inner blade supports and blade slots.  It took a bit to figure that out. E-machine shops was very useful in making the templates I followed to cut out the inner blade slots and the layout for the inner and outer blade positioning.

The outer blades I made from 3/4” Oak flooring left over from work. They haven't warped yet so it was a good choice. 3” wide, 1/8” at the tip and approximately 5/8's” in the center. This created a wide opening on the out side and from the middle of the blade in almost a straight line to the inner turbine. A venture effect that worked well for me. The pivot point of the blades is in the center. Once I got all of these into position came the adjusting stage for max spin of the inner turbine. This took for ever to get too. I used 1/8th” to 1” hole bits to do the adjusting of the outer blades. Yes got a stating point and laid out a patter for all 36 blades and started adjusting one bit at a time. It took for ever but I got it done, 3 months later, a few hours at a time. The odometer was the tool for this process.

Now I have a working Turbine. Next.... the alternator.

Having no clue how to do this, back to the net. I read and read and read. At the time there was not a lot of info on VAWT alternators lots on HAWT. I bought a Book from Hugh Piggott and used his alternator designs to make a 12v and 48v 9 coil duel magnet rotor single stator alternator, direct drive. The 48v worked the best but I could only get 12v in a 12 to 15 mph wind. This just wasn't going to work in Seattle, with an average wind of 5 mph except for stormy days where I lived at the time. I tried using pulleys to gear up the alternator but the cogging made it even harder for the turbine to start spinning.

Back to the patent and the alternator used with this turbine. Using Emachineshop I worked out the approximate size of the alternator used with this turbine. Over 4' across with over 200 -1” x 2” x 1/2” magnets. Domino sized is what it said in the patent.

I have, in the last few months, started working on my project again. I'm 6 or 7 years into this project now, a lack of funding and building a mill put the turbine on the side lines. I'm slow and steady.

The Alternator.

It consists of 1 aluminum magnet rotor, center, with and 2 stators on either side. The stators consist of 360 slots with 3 leads stacked, of magnetic wire in a 3 phase configuration, in a serpentine pattern.  This design does not down scale easily. I have been able to get it down to 19” using 1/2” x 1” x 1/4” N45 neo magnets. Wire size was the determining factor for the 19” rotor. I'm using #16 magnetic wire, mainly because I have a roll I bought and never used.  The magnets are set in the rotor stacked 2 per slot, N, S, N around the disk. The wire is evenly spaced around the stators at 1 deg, Phases staggered every 3 slots to get 3 phase. 1 Phase under every magnet. The magnet separation is about an1/8th” at the closest points. Since I don't have a CNC yet this is going to be a lot of fun to build. The patent states that a gear box was used to increase the rotor speed. Basically it is a magnetic levitation design used to make power, not to move things. I've been reading up on metal casting and mold making. This is an inexpensive alternative to paying for a machine shop to make them. Between work and Dan I have every thing I need to accomplish this task. Back to the table saw.
 Note: This was patented in the 80's, 20 years after he had already built this alternator and turbine and put it into use.

So here is my dilemma, more learning required.  I still can't, for the life of me, put my head around this math for figuring out alternators. I don't want to just build it and hope it works. I don't have the money for that kind of learning. You know, I have to ask the right question to get the answer. 42?
I do Understand some of the basics for the coil style alternators. This one is just baffling. I will eventually just build it, I always do, I would just like to understand more on how it works before then.

Whell there you go for now. Any input on understanding alternators is greatly appreciated.
Unlike HAWT, which you can find detailed information on construction, start to standing. The detailed information for the VAWT is very allusive, especially the alternator, or generators used. A piece here a piece there, but nothing all together.

turbine alternator


Outer blades


Inner Turbine


direct drive Alternator


indirect drive alternator


Painted turbine complete


on the roof


charge controler




alternator attached


charg controller

AAron
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bart

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »
   That is a nice build.
Although I can't answer any of your questions, I swear some where an older post exist where someone else did this design also.

Windy11

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 09:44:42 PM »
You're way above my head but please take that as a compliment!

I've use a Schwinn Bike speedometer too. In the vid below I say that it measures "wind speed". That's not correct. It measures the tip speed as if the blade diameter were a wheel on a bike. Don't confuse it with TPR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiic_kfjtUk
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electrondady1

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 09:58:33 PM »
what is the open voltage of your alternator @60 rpm
the magnets in the images you posted look like ceramic mags

sorry the description of your alternator is confusing
in fact it sounds like three separate alternators

your mill is 27" x 27" ?
so swept area is 5 sq.ft.

here is a calculator for vawts
http://www.usvawt.com/cgi/windpower.cgi

a squirrel cage mill is usually about 20% of betz
in a regular coil alternator you simply do a test coil to find the number of turns required for each coil  to produce the required voltage .
for a serpentine stator perhaps one or more turns around the entire set of mags

to calculate the number of turns required you must you must set up a jig and do a test coil at a known rpm   
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:54:07 PM by electrondady1 »

taylorp035

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 10:42:09 PM »
I have considered the design myself... even tried using a few strategically placed barriers to direct the wind into my mini model vawts.   It's cool to see someone take it to the next level.

Once this starts making power, I would love to see what the coefficient of performance is, with regards to the overall frontal area and also with respect to just the inner turbine dimensions.  Maybe an estimate on how much faster you can get the inner rotor to spin versus a normal vawt with no vanes.  I would be impressed if the increase in rpm was close to the ratio in vane dia to turbine diameter.

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 11:24:17 PM »
   That is a nice build.
Although I can't answer any of your questions, I swear some where an older post exist where someone else did this design also.

That would be Dr. Roberts " A different VAWT design" I wanted to talk to him but he was only here for a few days 6 years ago.
AAron
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 11:36:42 PM »
what is the open voltage of your alternator @60 rpm
the magnets in the images you posted look like ceramic mags

sorry the description of your alternator is confusing
in fact it sounds like three separate alternators

your mill is 27" x 27" ?
so swept area is 5 sq.ft.

here is a calculator for vawts
http://www.usvawt.com/cgi/windpower.cgi

a squirrel cage mill is usually about 20% of betz
in a regular coil alternator you simply do a test coil to find the number of turns required for each coil  to produce the required voltage .
for a serpentine stator perhaps one or more turns around the entire set of mags

to calculate the number of turns required you must you must set up a jig and do a test coil at a known rpm

Believe me it confused me for a long time also, there are 3 separate pieces. Doing a bench test is still expensive at this point. Thank you for the link, wish I could have found something like this when I was building this.
AAron
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 11:48:54 PM »
  Maybe an estimate on how much faster you can get the inner rotor to spin versus a normal vawt with no vanes.  I would be impressed if the increase in rpm was close to the ratio in vane dia to turbine diameter.

I did this test on several different configurations of inner turbines. I only had 4 of the 36 blades in place and tested them, 4,6,8,9 blades. unfortunately I cant find those test results. Ive moved 2 time since this build. There was a significant increase in the rpm of the inner turbine with all the blades in place. also the angle of the outer blades made a big difference. Thats why it took so long to build, many different inner and outer blade configuration. If I find any of my test results I will post them.
AAron
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 12:06:15 AM »
what is the open voltage of your alternator @60 rpm
the magnets in the images you posted look like ceramic mags

I'm not sure what the open voltage was, I will have to put it back together and test it to see. The magnets in that pic are the coated N45 neodymium.

The part that really bytes is about 3 weeks ago the external hard drive I have all the information on stopped working. I have bits and pieces everywhere its just putting it all together again.
AAron
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SparWeb

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 12:31:27 AM »
Hi Aaron,

VAWTs can be troublesome, but it's good to see you aren't daunted.  Welcome to the forum.

I won't understand the new alternator until I see photos of it.  However I think there is enough on your plate, fine-tuning a VAWT with adjustable vanes, before building another alternator.  It is clear that you've had difficulty with the two you've already built, but still a long way from proving they don't work.   A finnicky VAWT can conceal the qualities of a good alternator simply by being "mismatched" with respect to the speeds the two would prefere to operate at.

In one of your photos, I think I see a multimeter reading "13.04" and a bike speedometer reading "11".   Can I guess that it means 13.04 VDC and 110 RPM?

If so, then it seems to be a fairly typical Hugh Piggott 12 volt alternator design, however you claim to have tried a 48V Hugh design, which would not be suitable, nor does it appear to be featured in your photo.
It would be helpful to clear up which alternator was tested, what voltage is measured and at what RPM that occurs.  That would be a good starting point for a bit of troubleshooting, which I'd like to take care of before throwing in the towel on the alternators you already have.  It would also be nice to know if the alternators are wired in star, delta, and we could also check that one coil or one phase isn't reversed, just in case.

PS:   Do I spy an RM-Young anemometer?
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 01:41:06 AM »
Hi Aaron,

VAWTs can be troublesome, but it's good to see you aren't daunted.  Welcome to the forum.

I won't understand the new alternator until I see photos of it. 
  patent pics coming up. I still dont understand it But i have figured out how to build it. figure 6,10,5,11,12 are break downs of the magnetic rotor. figure 7,8,9,are the stator layout. figure 2 is the assembled alternator with gear box.
Quote
However I think there is enough on your plate, fine-tuning a VAWT with adjustable vanes, before building another alternator.  It is clear that you've had difficulty with the two you've already built, but still a long way from proving they don't work.
Very true, I am in the correct place to get this all worked out and functional. I just need some guidance in the right direction.
Quote
A finnicky VAWT can conceal the qualities of a good alternator simply by being "mismatched" with respect to the speeds the two would prefere to operate at.  In one of your photos, I think I see a multimeter reading "13.04" and a bike speedometer reading "11".   Can I guess that it means 13.04 VDC and 110 RPM?
That is correct, 13.04 VDC and 110 RPM.  Like I said I just cant get my head around it yet. It is the main reason I'm putting this out there, I want it to work and I need to be educated in the right direction. I know it may or may not be an easy fix, I just cant see it yet.

Quote
If so, then it seems to be a fairly typical Hugh Piggott 12 volt alternator design, however you claim to have tried a 48V Hugh design, which would not be suitable, nor does it appear to be featured in your photo. It would be helpful to clear up which alternator was tested, what voltage is measured and at what RPM that occurs.  That would be a good starting point for a bit of troubleshooting, which I'd like to take care of before throwing in the towel on the alternators you already have.  It would also be nice to know if the alternators are wired in star, delta, and we could also check that one coil or one phase isn't reversed, just in case.
That is the 12v alternator and the one that I did the testing with. The 48 volt under any load did not allow the turbine to spin so I went with the one you see. I also have the same problem with the 12v alternator, but it spins direct drive in higher winds.

Quote
PS:   Do I spy an RM-Young anemometer?
That would be the Oregon Scientific weather station. wind, rain, temp and humidity. It is nice to see the RPM verses actual wind speed.

I never give up!! But I do take breaks, sometimes long ones. ;) Thanks for the welcome SparWeb, glad to be here.
AAron
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electrondady1

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 08:30:42 AM »
ok, it sounds like you have built two Hugh Piggot style air core alternators.
or maybe one alternator and two different stators.

neither of these were a match so your are contemplating building this third alternator?
  a big radial design with what looks like an iron core?
or have you already started the radial construction?

been building  vertical mills for about 10 years and they are a different animal than a hawt.
i only do direct drive air core alternators now
i build my stators to produce 14 volts dc @60 rpm
that's about 25% of top speed.
the mills freewheel in  mild winds up until the point they are pushing amps into the battery.




 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 08:54:51 AM by electrondady1 »

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 12:36:24 PM »
Yes, electrondady1, 1 alternator 2 different stators. The one in the pictures is for the 10" 12v alternator design from " A wind turbine recipe book 2009" Not the one I stated earlier. I found the metric version of the book but not the English version that has all my notes in it, still looking.

Without my notes I am pulling from memory, sometimes not so good, I will recant and update info as I go along.   

The 12v does work in winds above 15 mph and charged my battery.

The radial design is something I do want to build. No, I have not started construction yet for 1 simple reason.

Here is the deal.
 I do not fully understand the basic principles of alternator design for wind turbines. This is why I am asking question. Yes, I can follow directions and build one but that does not mean I understand exactly how it works. Like determining wire size, wraps per coil, adjusting those parameters and modifying to meet specific needs and turbine size. When I started this project there was not a lot of info on alternators for VAWT, now there seems to be a little more info. $1200. for a pre-made one, not happening. It may work and work well but it does not resolve my basic issue, how does it work.

I will put my existing turbine and alternator back into working condition and set it up so it works. But as far as building my 3rd alternator from the patent will not happen until I have a much better understanding of the basics of the alternator I already have.

Ideally, I would like to build an alternator for a specific need and size the turbine to match. This design of turbine is easy for me to scale up or down.

You, with 10 years of experience building VAWT, are some one I should be learning from and listening too. If you don't mind, I think I will do that.

Are there any books, links, PDF's or the like you know of that may help me in my quest for understanding of the low wind alternator?

AAron
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SparWeb

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 02:44:55 PM »
Okay, more info, thanks!
First off, put the brakes on the iron-cored alternator right now.  The VAWT shows signs of needing fine-tuning already so don't burden it with an alternator that resists rotation at low speed.
Ive done a bunch of motor-conversion alternators, which have wire wound through iron teeth, and they all resist turning.  Just slightly, but it's enough to bring them to a stop with light winds, and they don't start until the breeze comes up close to cut-in.  They don't spin idly very often.  The reason is that the magnets are constantly dragging a magnetic field through the iron.  That robs a bit of energy, even at very slow speeds.  I put up with this due to some benefits that compensate - I won't get into that now 'cause it's a little off-topic.

Matching the rotor with the alternator is the next issue.  Ignore the volts and amps for a minute.  Just think about power, or more specifically, the fact that you have to put power IN before you can get any power OUT.

Wind power has to go IN to the rotor, to get any MECHANICAL power out.
Mechanical power has to go IN to an alternator, to get any ELECTRICAL power out.

Each of the two devices, the rotor and the alternator, have their own IN/OUT power characteristics.  Not really set properties, but a curve of performance that varies with RPM.

So let's set the RPM of the system at 150 RPM.  I'll use a made-up example for simplicity.
Say that an alternator requires 200 Watts of MECHANICAL power to turn at 150 RPM, if it's charging a 12v battery at 10 amps. 
120W out / 200W in = 60% efficient.

To keep the alternator turning at 150 RPM, then the rotor MUST supply that 200 Watts of mechanical power to the driveshaft.  If it can only generate 100 W, then the alternator will slow down.  If the rotor can deliver 300W, then the alternator will speed up.

What about this rotor?  At what wind speed does it produce 200 Watts?  Can it be turning at 150 RPM when it does so?  These are questions that you have to ask, and you sort-of need a bunch of test data WITH MECHANICAL LOAD on the rotor's output shaft, to find out.  Letting the rotor spin freely, and seeing it hit 300 RPM proves nothing.  If you then load it up, and discover that at best you can only get 50 Watts of mechanical power in a 15mph wind speed, no matter what RPM you drag it down to, then there is absolutely no way for the rotor to power the alternator.

That's how the rotor can be "mismatched" to the alternator.  The opposite can be true and some rotors run away with a tiny alternator until something melts.
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Flux

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 04:34:46 PM »
It seems as though your Hugh Piggott 12v stator is working near enough, there is no power in low winds for tiny HAWTs under decent conditions, much less for a VAWT in poor surroundings so I am not too surprised that you can't get much under 15mph.

The most satisfactory form of alternator for low winds is the axial air gap machine so forget about anything else with iron in it.

I have no idea of the characteristics of your VAWT but you just need to sort out where
 your problem lies with the matching.

You need to establish what is happening in lower winds, is the VAWT running light with not enough speed for the alternator to reach charging volts or is the alternator too stiff for the wind rotor to drive it.

You have proved that the 48v stator stalls the rotor and that the 12v one is a lot closer. It may be that you need a few more volts to get the thing cut in in lower winds or you need a less powerful alternator so that the wind rotor can turn it.

Take your 12v stator and let the thing run light ( no battery) in the lower winds and measure the volts it produces, if it produces over 12v in the winds you want to use then it is probably stalling the rotor. If you don't get up to 12v then the alternator needs a stator with more turns.

The voltage produced is directly oproportional to the number of turns in the coils so you can easily modify the stator to suit your needs.

You may possibly need something nearer a 24v stator and then you can always increase the air gap if it stalls.

I suspect realistically you will never get anything below 10mph wind speed so choose a day with about 10mph wind and measure the open circuit volts. If it is under 12vdc ( after the rectifiers) you need motre turns. If say you get 6v then you need to double the turns.

Having got the right sort of voltage for cut in it then comes down to making the alternator stiffness such that it best matches the rotor as the wind picks up. If it stalls you can add some resistance to make things less stiff.

As a rough guide most types of turbine seem to want to run best when loaded to something like half their unloaded speed so if you find that when you connect the battery the speed more than halves you can be pretty sure you are stalling.

If you know anything about electronics and can build a buck converter that would be the ideal way to get the best results as you could then match the voltage in to the turbine power curve and recover the energy needed to let the speed come up. This will make things less stiff just as adding resistance but you will recover the energy rather than having the resistive losses.

This is really the only way to do the job. When you have power to spare you can get a working compromise but when trying to get the most of the little power available there is no way to make a variable speed alternator load correctly into a fixed voltage battery. To be efficient ( and you need that) an alternator loaded into constant volts is forced to run at constant speed.

With HAWTs which are lift machines you gain so much from matching the prop power curve that you can tolerate a fairly low efficiency to get the speed match but I suspect your machine is more of a drag machine and you won't get enough improvement from the rotor matching to match the loss from reducing the electrical efficiency. This probably means that you may do best with a high alternator efficiency, the correct cut in and letting it stall as the wind picks up.

This in the end makes me think that you would be best to concentrate on getting the cut in speed correct for the lowest wind you can usefully use. Your magnet rotors will be fine, you may need something with a few more turns for the stator than the 12v one but prove it by running it unloaded in the lower winds as I suggested.  Err on the side of a few too many turns and then you can do a fine adjustment with the air gap.

In fact it may be just possible to use the 48v stator with a very large air gap or one magnet rotor removed to get some idea if the 12v one proves to be producing too few volts.

Forget gearing, the alternator doesn't cog but it will have bearing losses and any attempt at gearing will magnify any frictional problesm and prevent start up

Flux






electrondady1

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 05:33:49 PM »
flux is the authority on this forum and spar web is very knowledgeable as well.
with their advise you will sort this all out.
i'm just a nut who likes how vertical mills look when they spin.
but if you hang around this place you will learn a lot.
like , your rotors should be mild steel .

every vawt is different, there isn't the knowledge base that there is with hawts,
 
but you can extrapolate and adapt to suit your machines

GoVertical

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »
Hi, nice!!! Post on windgen.org. It is a vawt forum
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 07:43:23 PM by GoVertical »
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2012, 11:28:07 AM »
Thank you for the info guys. I have been sick the last few days, kids and public education, nothing like new bugs. I cant focus on anything. SparWeb, Flux great info I'll be digesting and working this out for a bit.

electrondady1 I can relate I like the way they look also.

GoVertical, That is a cool forum. When I can focus a little better I will post over there. For now Ill work out the info SparWeb, Flux gave me and start working out the fine  tuning of my alternator to turbine issue. I learn better when I don't spread myself out to far. Hey you get any Wind Yet, that's a wild looking belt drive alternator your working on.

The Patent alternator is an Aluminum core rotor, Not Iron or Steal.

When I shelved my Turbine a few years ago I was in the process of upgrading the bearings and shaft. Unfortunately the drill bit I bought had a bent shank and wobbeled out the center to big and made balancing it almost imposable. I have to remake the inner turbine supports to get back to a good starting point. The inner turbine is 18" x 26" by 9 blades.

 I have a lot of scrap Titanium pipe and plate at work I plan to use to remake the turbine with. Before I commit to the build  I am deciding on the size of turbine I want to build. I have enough to make a 48" h x 36" w inner turbine. I can make it 10' tall if I want, I have enough pipe. Its free, I can weld it, why not? Ill work that out later and focus on what is in front of me for now.
AAron
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fabricator

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 07:23:38 PM »
Roof top hawts have very disappointing output, as roof top wind is as a general rule a joke, add to that a vawt that will only make 20% of the power of a comparable hawt, you do the math.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2012, 08:44:20 PM »
You quit correct fabricator.
 Add to the math I was at sea level, with a giant pear tree behind me and a hill above 1000 feet a mile away. The only wind I really got was in a storm. This all added up to a great equation for very poor results indeed and that is exactly what I got.

On the up side it does look cool, like a barn vent, and the neighbors didn't complain. Here in Vantage I will have a little better results even if i set it on the ground to test. The wind get howling here. Ever heard of a wind swept town? This is one on them. The commercial HAWT are a few mile up the hill from me and there awesome to watch. I'm going to take one of there tours this spring to see the inner workings. Wild horse wind farm or something like that.

I know VAWT will never be as efficient as HAWT and I don't intent to try. I do intend to make this as efficient as the design allows and that is all I can do. With some help from members of this forum I will be able to achieve this goal.

I did not do the math, I did not need too, a few knowledgeable people like yourself explained the differences to me in great detail a long time ago when I started getting to this project and for my purposes the VAWT suites me fine.

No worries fabricator, it's all good.
AAron
Draw me a picture and I will understand what you said.

GoVertical

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 06:16:42 PM »
Hi, start researching MPPT. It will improve your results.
Learn from the past, live in the present, plan for the future
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 01:21:00 PM »
GoVertical I will start looking thanks.

Flux, This is what I was looking for. http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,127288.msg816642.html#msg816642 Very informative and helpful. I will read this over a few times for better understanding. Thanks for putting this out there.

I'm looking into  information regarding Alternator design and theory. I saw mention of programs used to plug numbers into to work out efficiencies and curves. I found a PDF that gives formulas for complete design of alternators from scratch. Magnet gauss, wire resistance, turns per coil, all parameters... Is there a program available that I could plug numbers into to design alternators? If not, I'll stick to plugging the numbers into formulas.

Have a great Christmass.
AAron
Draw me a picture and I will understand what you said.

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 12:07:54 PM »
Will this help?

PDF:   http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks.pdf

Less math just the theory, plus some examples.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Flux

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 12:36:15 PM »
Nice link, not seen that one before.

Nice and simple, I like it.

Flux

SparWeb

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 12:51:50 PM »
Thanks,

It gets plagiarized a lot.
I also haven't updated it in a while, some web links don't work any more, but all of the important ones still do.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 01:19:49 PM »
That is helping Sparweb. I noticed the books that cost 5 years ago are free online now, go figger. I have that one and it is the one I used to build the alternators I have. I looked on Ed's site again  and saw his program for "Blade Designer" I'll have to get that as well.

I found this PDF. Lots of formulas but they do explain it well enough to put the numbers into start designing.
"A permanent magnet generator for small scale wind turbines"
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/julien.dourado/zeph_tech_web/academic_research/1_permanent_magnet_generator.pdf

My main project " Not yet discussed here" Is the reason for all these questions. Lots of paperwork before this happens. It is a smaller version of my turbine. It is intended to charge a 6 volt battery to power LED's and a few other low amperage things.

The reason I'm using this turbine design is simple.
1. It is, by design, bird and finger friendly. You have to go out of your way to touch the rotating part of this turbine.
2. Through prototyping I have proven the smaller turbines are effective in low wind speeds for charging batteries,1.5v to 6v.
To use a HAWT in my application would be dangerous, more effective yes, but dangerous.
Yard art is what this is and why I'm building them. They will be at people height so safety is a big issue for me.

I know you will like what Dan has asked me to build. Just know it is not to power anything in a house.
I hope no one has issues with me using this forum to learn about power generation for what is in essence a toy compared to everything ell's discussed here. The principles are the same for alternator design at any scale from what I have learned so far, it is all about the math. Correct me if I am wrong.

 Sorry for the roof top photo fabricator. I have no intention of building these to put on roof tops or power utilities. It'll never work and I know this, unless it is the full scale one described in the patent, the size of a small grain silo on a hill. In that case A HAWT is the less expensive and more productive choice for me to build.
AAron
Draw me a picture and I will understand what you said.

Flux

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 01:41:51 PM »
Yes that link is way too complicated for someone not doing  a PhD.  You will be able to understand the basic alternator construction but the maths won't help you.

So few home constructors have much idea of the flux densities their magnets produce and have no means of measuring it except by using a test coil. I suggest you look at an alternator design from Hugh or Dan and assume that your turbine will run at less than 1/4 the speed, so you will need to choose a magnet rotor design for something perhaps in the 300W region for the intended HAWT.  Having chosen the magnet assembly you build it and then read up here about doing test coils to determine your number of turns.

From the number of turns and the space available you can choose a wire size that will fit. You should then end up with a winding with the right cut in speed and if it is too stiff you just add some resistance to tame it down.

If you are working with LEDs the matching will not be critical compared with battery charging, unless you want to charge a battery to run the lights.

Flux

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 07:25:17 PM »
Yes that link is way too complicated for someone not doing  a PhD.  You will be able to understand the basic alternator construction but the maths won't help you.

Very true Flux. I ran into a similar hurdle building my mill. I did overcome the math in that situation to reconstruct what was lost over time,15  years of neglect and memory loss about the process. The mill works today because I did not quit trying. I did have help. Chemistry and mechanical action in harmony, All math.

Quote
So few home constructors have much idea of the flux densities their magnets produce and have no means of measuring it except by using a test coil. I suggest you look at an alternator design from Hugh or Dan and assume that your turbine will run at less than 1/4 the speed, so you will need to choose a magnet rotor design for something perhaps in the 300W region for the intended HAWT.  Having chosen the magnet assembly you build it and then read up here about doing test coils to determine your number of turns.

From the number of turns and the space available you can choose a wire size that will fit. You should then end up with a winding with the right cut in speed and if it is too stiff you just add some resistance to tame it down.
I agree completely and this is the course I will be pursuing.

Quote
unless you want to charge a battery to run the lights.
Baring any major problems, that is the plan. It has worked successfully for me on my prototype. But only at the 1.5 to 3v range so far, I need just a little more juice to accomplish my goal.

The output/usable power goal at the moment is 6v at 1 amp. or as close as I can get from the charged battery. But I want to charge the battery first so, I'll focus on that first.
 
I will do as you suggested above and start building with my existing materials (recycle) and get set up to be able to do accurate bench/coil testing. Ahhh more reading and building.

Thank you for the input.


AAron
Draw me a picture and I will understand what you said.

aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2015, 12:22:34 PM »
2012 is my last post, man I really am getting slow.
Still working on the rotor for the alternator. I have bought a 3040 Mill/CNC & computer off ebay to fabricate the rotor. Had no real clue how to use it but I have learned to draw in a format that I can convert to G-code for my cnc machine.

The computer power supply failed 9 month ago. I finally got it into the shop and will have it back this week.
I now have all the components drawn for a complete, functional VAWT. With my computer I can start the conversion process, for some reason my wife doesn't want it on her computer. With the g-code I will start testing on wood and fine tune from there for my CNC. I can also use the same G-code for the larger pieces on a friend's larger Plasma cutter CNC.


On a personal note. I'm recovering from a total knee replacement, 3 weeks ago.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:32:35 PM by aaronseattle »
AAron
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keithturtle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2015, 12:00:25 PM »
Don't be shy about using heavy material in your build.  If you think 1/4" stock is heavy enough, go with 5/16 or 3/8.  You'll be glad you did, especially on the mounting pieces

Turtle
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aaronseattle

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2021, 10:22:33 PM »
Hello, I'm still alive.
Got sidetracked with life, goldmining and a new career. We bought ourselves a plot in the woods close to town. I got a 3d printer for Christmas and decided to make as big an alternator as needed to test the basics. 
I'm tinkering and learning to use the 3d printer to make the alternator. Drawing with cad 3d is a flustering with a steep learning curve for me.
 But Damn 8 years off topic, :-X.
 I'll try not to be so long this time ;D.

This is the first, almost successful stator
18 - .5 in. N 52 magnets
 13832-0
AAron
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electrondady1

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2021, 08:33:22 AM »
hello, its good to see you back on the forum. your photo shows 3 objects. one might me a magnet rotor with what looks like 20 magnets. is it made from steel? the other two objects look like platforms for winding or retaining coils .


SparWeb

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Re: AArons VAWT design
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2021, 08:15:50 AM »
Hi
Welcome back!

Please tell us how this goes together.  It looks like wire coils can be wound between the fins on the green and purple disks...  but I'm guessing there.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca