Stacked, Magnified, Magnetized Solar Panels(to many complaints)

[sjwartist]

Why can't solar panels be stacked?  This would increase output over a smaller surface area.  Tinted 2 way silicone mirrors for PV surface area and or multiple staggered pinholes to allow light to other layers.  Tinting could increase heat & light capture as well as seperating the different light wavelengths.  Then if the silicone wafer was formed with minute magnifying lenses over the entire surface area more heat could be generated and converted to electricity using multiple ultra-thin Thermocouples wires bound together in conductive fluid (lithium, mercury saltwater,vinegar,etc.).  If copper wire is used it should be heated to create cuprous oxide.  Surface are also should be able to be increased by changing the shape of the silicone to square peaks & valleys like a castle wall.  This can be done on both the horizontal and vertical planes.  This is how 3-D photograhps and advertisments are created.  Depending on your position you can see anywhere from 3-6 images.  That means surface area could be increased by 6 times in this manner alone.

Why not also throw in Electro-Magnetism to increase output more. Adding a switch to each panel to turn the currents On, & off would move magnetic particles suspended in a form of plasma in unison.  This alternating current, unison movement could be used to spin a magnetic disc faster & faster creating a generator which would increase electrical output.  Now use this technology on a car, no more eye sore, spread out wing designs necessary.  Also once speed is generated why not add the addition of wind power on the front grill with multiple, minature turbins, that would spin acting as a minor counter to power lost on momentum to move forward.  In addition on windy days it would work like a charger tied into a main generator and battery to store the excess energy.

I have been thinking about this idea for a few years now, wondering why no one was doing it.  Recently I found this article about SpectroLab implementing the closest thing to it.  Still it could be taken several steps further.

Thoughts & Ideas?  Has anyone tried any of this?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=643C3D30-E7F2-99DF-3108C4CB8A197667&ref=rss

[stop4stuff]

the triple junction technology is used in the suncube developed by the same company as the sunball (some info here on the board some where).

[Countryboy]

more heat could be generated and converted to electricity *

Solar panels don't convert heat into electricity.  Heat is something you don't want.

*That means surface area could be increased by 6 times in this manner alone.

Surface area available doesn't mean diddly if you still have the exact same amount of sunlight hitting panels.  It won't increase output to have 6 times the area, when each area only gets 1/6 of the original sunlight.

minature turbins, that would spin acting as a minor counter to power lost on momentum to move forward. *

Because you can only recover less energy than the energy required to push the turbines.  

For a comparable scenario, I'll give you 75 cents (energy recovered by turbines) back for every $1.00 (initial energy) you give me.  Sooner or later you will understand the net benefit to you, or lack there of.

*Thoughts & Ideas?

My thought:  You need to spend less time studying the theory of over unity, and spend more time studying the reality of over unity.  :-)

[sjwartist]

Thanks for the comments, but why can't solar heat be used in additon?  Might as well take advantage of solar heat generated as well. It's a missed opportunity just like the minature wind turbines.  I know that the force exerting to create momentum doesn't equal that wich could be recuped from the wind power but it would lower the amount of energy lost, even the slightest amount can make a difference.  The design of solar panels could be changed to separate the two so that reduction in performance could be avoided, or better yet change it so that heat doesn't affect transfer performance at all. I.E. my stacking idea. Surface layer for changing heat to electricity, insulator to separate the bottom layer which could be the traditional PV cell magnified.   "Solar panels don't convert heat into electricity." Well DUH.  Not existing ones at least.

As far as increased surface area goes, It does matter.  photons come from all directions and change in intensity.  A 2-Dimensional surface doesn't capture or reflect all photons coming towards it. Spectrolab has already proven that.  They have minimized the components, like the chip manufactures which has allowed them to reduce the size of the panels and increase output in a smaller surface area.  They added a 2nd dimension or "surface area" by diagonal cuts in the silicone wafer.  That means more area to reflect or capture light when available.  Lasers and nano-technology have allowed this process to be implemented in modern manufacturing and it is good enough now to go even further with it.  Think about standing at the corner of a U shaped building, with the bottom of the U being flat and that being were you are at.  The position of the sun is at 10 am, therefore concentrated photons are currently striking you and the left side of the building.  The right is in shadow but still has light to be seen and or used.  The light hitting the left side of the building and the shadowed right side is missing you. Move out away from the building and now you can see and are exposed to all three.  Photos are atoms that are very small and on a microscopic level will act the same way.

Trying to unify Gravitation with Electromagnetism has been the Holy Grail of Physics.  It has not been done yet.  Einstein wrestled greatly with it.  That also means the potential, understanding and "REALITY of EM is not fully realized.  Once unified one thing it could mean, knowing gravities EM frequency which could be used to cancel out gravity.  The field of EM is also the area lacking most behind in techonlogical innovation and development.  Most people don't even realize that water can be made to move soley with EM.  I have already done this for a painting that suspends water and allows it to move on a vertical plane.  Take it a step further the human body is made up of 75% water.  The electrical charge in water can be changed without harm to the subject.  So in the same manner as magnetic poles repelling each other so to can a living plant or animal be repelled in a controlled manner.  If done correctly the living object can actually be made to float.  Scientists have already shown this.  http://www.hfml.ru.nl/frog-ejp.pdf

All of the great thinkers, scientists and inventors where people who could think outside the box and explain or show what they had found in laymens terms.  If they had your attitude great inventions would not have occured.  It always takes someone going against majority opinion.  Our understanding of our own solar system, medicine, ideas once thought extremely fantastical or impossible like the space elevator have the opportunity to be created because those people posed the question in the first place. Now development is underway for the space elevator with the advent of Carbon nano-tubes strings.

If your going to respond to someones ideas, don't do it in a demeaning, belittling way.  Most of all don't speak like your an expert when you clearly aren't.  You only discredit yourself in that way.  Analytical approaches have there importance but if one gets to caught up in them they miss a lot of opportunities.  Like you totally missing my point and idea to increase solar panel wattage output with your using the comment Solar panels don't convert heat into electricity.  Heat is something you don't want.  Stop trying to make yourself feel smarter than you really are by how you choose to comment.  It is foolish.

[sjwartist]

Thanks I'm going to look into the suncube.  

[whatsnext]

What does any of this have to do with the "practical applications of DIY RE"?

[ghurd]

There is only 1,000W of power in 1^2 yard of sunlight.

Split, divide, redirect, or magnify it all you want, it is still only 1KW.

That is how a watt is defined.

That is Why a solar panel is listed at 8 to 17% efficient.

Smoke & mirrors will not increase the figure.

G-

[Countryboy]

If your going to respond to someones ideas, don't do it in a demeaning, belittling way.

Then have the decency to read and understand the rules of the forum before you start making theoretical posts about over unity et al.

I'm surprised the moderators didn't kill this topic, to be perfectly honest.

[Tom in NH]

When I look at a tree with thousands of leaves that function as individual solar energy collectors I wonder what it would be like to build a PV panel in the same way (i.e. have a few hundred cells dangling from connecting wires. Mother nature designed her solar energy collectors very differently from nice straight flat perpendicular-to-the-sun designs of humans. I wonder why? --tom

[stop4stuff]

your frog example is diamagnetic levitation, a 16T Bitter magnet is used to levitate the frog http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/hfml/froglev.html ... great fun http://www.stop4stuff.com/lego/technic/levitation-rig/

[dinges]

"Thoughts & Ideas?  Has anyone tried any of this?"

No sane person on this board has tried it, as far as I know.

But, since you obviously think outside of the box, why don't -you- experiment with it? Then report the results in here so the rest of us can learn too.

"I have been thinking about this idea for a few years now, wondering why no one was doing it."

You shouldn't have been thinking, you should have been studying. Physics, for example. I suggest you start with the laws of 'Conservation of Energy'.

We have had other users who were able to think outside of the box. Like for example this one. Too bad he's no longer around and never reported back on his 'Trizzyrigged power maker':

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/2/27/35735/3737

You may find this link interesting too:

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/museum/unwork.htm

Einstein was one of the great thinkers of our time and he was able to think outside of the box. But, before he started to think outside of the box, he knew perfectly well what is inside box (classical physics). And, gasp, even Einstein has been known to be wrong on occasion...

On a more positive note: if your project succeeds you will be eligible for a Nobel prize in physics.

[sjwartist]

"There is only 1,000W of power in 1^2 yard of sunlight,"

1^2 yard is a surface area.  Think 3-Dimensionally, not 2-Dimensionally also avoid viewing it from such a large scale (yards).  More watts and more photons are captured in a larger surface area right?  Photons can be captured, concentrated and absorbed right?

SMOKE(lIGHT FILTERS) MIRRORS AND THE SHAPE OF SURFACE AREA CAN AND HAS INCREASED THE FIGURES.

Sources: Scientific American, NREL, GTRI, ANU and Spectrolab.

"Australian National University and Origin Energy have developed a technique for slicing a single silicon wafer, which allows a significantly larger collector surface area, compared to usual solar cells. The technique involves taking a silicon wafer, typically 1 to 2mm thick, and creating a multitude of slices downward, creating a large number of slivers that are 50 micrometres thick. These slices are rotated 90 degrees, THEREBY MULTIPLYING THE SURFACE AREA OF EXPOSED SILICON. The electrical doping and contacts are placed on either side of the sliver, rather than the traditional front and rear. This has the interesting effect of making the cell sensitive from both the front and rear of the cell."

SPECTROLAB

"Such triple-junction solar cells are specially tuned to work with concentrated light, in this case the wattage of 240 suns. The resulting efficiency nearly doubles that of standard silicon solar cells, which hover at 22 percent. That gain requires, however, the use of light-concentrating devices, such as MINIATRUE PLASTIC LENSES AND MIRRORS. The new solar cell achieved (40.7) percent efficiency under such concentrated light at the testing center at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado. One cell of just 0.26685 square centimeter (or roughly 0.04 square inch) pumped out 2.6 watts of electricity when bathed at the maximum light concentration."  the triple-junction solar cell may not hold the efficiency record for long. "We are also looking at four-, five-, even SIX-JUNCTION solar cells," HMMM WHAT MIGHT THEY BE TALKING ABOUT.

Georgia Tech Research Institute (GTRI) scientists have demonstrated an ability to precisely grow "TOWERS" composed of carbon nanotubes atop silicon wafers. (MY U SHAPED BUILDING EXAMPLE).

The nanometer-scale scale towers, which would be coated by the special p-type and n-type semiconductor (p/n) junction materials used to generate electrical current, would INCREASE THE SURFACE available to produce electricity.

Reflections off the Gothamesque towers would provide more opportunity for each photon of sunlight to interact with the p/n junction of the cell. That would increase the power output from PV cells of a given size, or allow cells to be made smaller while producing the same amount of power.

Also look at US Patent number US1289369

What was that you said about only 1KW and 8-17% effeciency?

[sjwartist]

I am presenting an idea for discussion, Somethings that are practical were once impractical.  I don't have the resources, grants or support needed to develop a lot of ideas I have so I am trying to share them in hopes others will think outside the box and maybe try them out if they haven't already.  I'm tired of all the good renewable energy resources, being put on the back burner, ignored and patents being bought up and buried.  People need to stop selling out.  We are being told we are stuck with oil, that all these renewable resources are too far out into the future, or not cost effective enough or there isn't enough demand even though many times consumers aren't marketed to to create demand for these kinds of products. There has to be an awareness first.  Well I know personally it is all a bunch of nonsense.  It all goes back to corporate greed and controlling consumers.  I live in Colorado close to the NREL labs.  I know people who work at NREL.  Funny how grants work and funds were cut, people fired and then most where brought back right before Bush's visit there, and his we are addicted to oil speech.  Still most of the grants go back to Fuel-Cell Technology, which is further out and not even close to as effecient as other technologies could be.  But it allows for a slower transition for those dictating control over development and it is still tied to refinement.

If you always stick to practical, more effecient technologies may not be developed and opportunities might be missed.  There are many more technologies and improvements to be made to the Rotary Engine.

Why are you telling me I must stick to, What any of this have to do with the "practical applications of DIY RE"?

That would be a narrow-minded approach.

[sjwartist]

You Reap what you sowe.  What is wrong with theoretical posts?  I see them all over the place here.  A lot of science is theoretical, especially over unity.

[sjwartist]

Plus I submitted this theoretical post to my diary and the rules are different for that.

[Tritium]

I thought over unity discussions were not allowed on this forum.

Thurmond

[Countryboy]

Read what you just posted.

1^2 yard is a surface area.  Think 3-Dimensionally, not 2-Dimensionally also avoid viewing it from such a large scale (yards).  More watts and more photons are captured in a larger surface area right?  Photons can be captured, concentrated and absorbed right?

You have 1000W worth of photon energy in one square meter.  It doesn't matter how you concentrate it, scatter it, or absorb it - you still ONLY have 1000W worth of photon energy to work with.  Concentrating sunlight to a smaller area does NOT increase the total amount of power available - until you learn this basic fact, you are wasting time.

3 dimensional panels versus 2 dimensional panels is irrelevant.  Sunlight doesn't come from all directions.  It comes from that big ball of fire 93 million miles away from us.  The sunlight that reaches us is travelling in one direction, thus you only need a 2D object to capture the light.

What was that you said about only 1KW and 8-17% effeciency?

I tell you what.  Get some mirrors, and concentrate 2 square yards of sunlight onto 1 square yard of panels.  You just got 2 KW.

But that's irrelevant.  The solar panel does not produce any energy, so the size of the panel is irrelevant.  The panel merely converts energy that is available to it - and the availability of the sun energy is 1KW per sq/meter.

[stop4stuff]

A lot of science is theoretical, especially over unity.

Disagreed there... over unity is theoretically impossible... i.e. from all of the scientific theories out there, all show ou to be impossible.

Get a grip with thermodynamics & the laws of conservation of ernergy & you may come up with a halfway decent idea of how to transfer energy in one form to more human useable energy source.

[sjwartist]

I have been studying physics, studying and thinking go hand in hand.  I may not get all the terminology correct now but I will eventually. I am quite aware of the Laws of Conservation for every action there is an equal reaction, etc., etc.,

My resources and finances are very limited for the time being but some of my scientific studies have lead to breakthrough artwork that I am starting to sell for High dollars. Trial and error is the bases of theories, medicine, and science as it is for art.   Yes it is important to understand the basic principles first, then you manipulate or change them to create new work, be it paintings, sculptures, technology, etc. You don't always need the best and most expensive equipment to discover something new.  Too many people believe the opposite and give up.  

Once I have gained more influencial patrons (investors) which looks as though it will be soon,  I will dedicate more time to inventing.  I would love to have the setup Edison had.  If you haven't had the opportunity to see his home in Florida and you are ever there it is a must see.

"Good fun,"

This museum is a celebration of fascinating devices that don't work.

People like this and TrizzyRigged serve their purpose.  I take that as an insult to be compared to that example, but it doesn't really bother me, because you do know hot to respond and critique appropriately.

I have Suspending moving water on a vertical surface, and it relates back somewhat to this idea.  I have worked extensively with EM.  The principle of oil & water not mixing, alternating currents and chemically diluted and gelled solutions are all things I have and am working with.  Now I am just making more fine tune adjustments for a more visually appealing presentation.  My problem with a lot of things is the inablility to work on a microscopic scale.

I also developed a stationary car logo center peice for luxury hubcaps & alloys using a lot of the same ideas with EM & ferromagnetic forces.  No matter the speed of the car the image could still be seen.  The idea first came from the mile-o-meters you can see on some semi-trucks. They get stuck a lot and break from pressure and varying weather conditions.  The existing technology made me think, how can it be improved?  This question should always be asked.  That was in my younger days when I was too naive and took the prototype around to different car part, wheel alloy manufactures to gain interest, a buyer, or investor without obtaining any patents.  A variation of the idea has been used with the modern spinners and advertisments on New York Taxicab hubcaps.  Since then I have learned not to give out too many details, and apply for patents to ideas I really care about and am capable of developming myself.

Best Wishes