The Permogator Saga (con't)

[Chester]

Yep. There is progress on Permogators.

Too bad no one is interested.

But for the one or two of you rebels.

I installed a Bedini circuit. A 2N3055 on a pot.

Dang thing went to 862 rpms, open. That's from 234 on my 555 chip. I won't be using that any more.

Got 17.5 volts rectified and condensed at 700 ohms on the output.

That's about 12 per cent efficiency, up from .67 percent, or an 1800 per cent improvement, thanks to John Bedini. The man is a genius.

[Junkie]

Sooo, when will we see your house being run off this thing ?

[TomW]

Wow, thats a nearly 18 fold increase, now all you need to do is increase that result by a factor of 8X and you will be oh so close.

Heres to hoping you pull it off.

[imagine a toast of fine blended whiskey]

T

[devoncloud]

awesome improvement Chester!

Devon

[DanB]

While I remain skeptical of Bedinis claims and all that...  he's been about the 1 fellow out there doing these sorts of things that's bewildered me a bit.  Either he's onto something (which I doubt)... or?

Its strange though, because he definitely does not follow the pattern of most of the folks promoting OU scams out there.  Being somewhat of a "vintage hi - fi" enthusiast...  his website, and his products are quite interesting to me.  It seems his main bread and butter has to do with the design, and manufacture of really high end "vintage style" audio equipment - mono block tube amplifiers and such.  Looks like pretty neat stuff...

http://bedini.com/vintage.htm

As for the overunity stuff (I guess he calls it radiant energy or something)... I find it very difficult to believe.... but I leave a tiny part of my mind open to it all and what the heck, I hope its true!  that'd be great.  Seems quite unlikely to me though.

[finnsawyer]

Check your previous diary.

[Chester]

I can see why Bedini might think there is some radient energy after looking at the pulse on the scope. There is an faint aura around it. It probably has something to do with the cemf spike, but it's there before, after, above and below.

I think I've gone about as far with this version as I can go. I've got a few ideas on fine tuning the pulse, now that I have some working experience with it, but the platform will have to be modified.

For instance, Bedini's system operates on repelling the magnet from the center of the core. His iron core attracts the magnet to the center. But the iron core also attracts the magnet back as it moves past the center, so he has to use weak magnets. On the permogator, with the air core, the repelling field is on when the magnet approaches the center of the core, so it isn't being attracted; rather the field is retarding its progress but since the field is weak the momentum carries it through. But with no iron to pull it back on the other side, a strong magnet gets a strong kick out of the weak core. It's a trade off. I can't say which works better in this configuration.

With the air core, I can see there may be some more options to manipulate the coil field timing and to use even stronger magnets and their momentum. But I'll probably have to build a new platform to test it.

I think the trigger wave can be advanced so that it occurs entirely before the magnet reaches the center of the core by pulling the trigger circuit out and putting it in another coil. Keep in mind, that the strong reaction involves the center of the magnet and the center of the core where the density is strongest. If the polarity of the circuit is set to attract, then there will be a strong attraction of the magnet to the center of the core with a final kick right where the density is great and then the attraction can be stopped by chopping the current just before it reaches dead center, letting the magnet coast across the center, so as not to retard. Then it seems like another switch could be set up on another coil/transistor combo to discharge a capacitor in the repelling direction as the magnet is carried beyond the center. That would give it two strong kicks, each close to and on either side of the dense fields and with no retarding effect at all, using the same input power. It should jump the output power quite a bit.

[sh123469]

I am interested.  Just haven't had any constructive comments or criticisms to make so have just been reading.

Hey, even if you just make a much more efficient small electric motor, that's good for conservation.

I won't discount over-unity operation.  It's just that nobody has ever proven in open testing that it works.  Since we waste so much of the input of our devices right now on friction, eddy losses, etc., someone may find a way to maximize all of the efficiencies and get something to work one day.  There may be some anomalous behavior out there somewhere that you can use to push efficiency higher and someday get it over the top.

Just don't forget all of the rigorous testing required to evaluate performance.  If you get it working, and I hope you do, I would love to see it made available for open, public demonstration and testing and then replication.  A 'lab queen' (something that works but can't be duplicated) won't help the world too much.

I have read most of Mr. Bedini's ideas and diagrams.  When he starts talking about microwave switching speeds, he leaves most small tinkerers in the dust...they just can't get something like that to work reliably.  He states that the motors provide over-unity performance but doesn't provide any impirical (sp?) test data.  He says that there is no measurement instrument available to record the amount of power going into his batteries but that he can charge more batteries than he requires to run the devices.  How about some data on how much more power is extracted, in the form of charged batteries, than is required to run the device.  I would assume that this would be 'free' power.

In short, interested...keep posting progress notes.

[finnsawyer]

>He says that there is no measurement instrument available to record the amount of power going into his batteries but that he can charge more batteries than he requires to run the devices.

This borders on mysticism.  I'd sure like to see it tested.  The output of a Bedini motor looks like a pulse charger to me.  The capacitor is discharged into the battery.  The energy E provided by the capacitor is equal to .5xCx(Vmax^2-Vmin^2) per discharge.  Multiply E by the number of discharges per second and you got the power out.  Real simple.

[devoncloud]

Well, and if the power input to his batteries is too small to test, then how is it giving a charge to the batteries?  I mean, if it is too small to test, then how could you see an increase in the charge of the batteries?

I do not claim to know it all, but that is just common sense... Or is it? (sorry, my horrible attempt at sounding like a magician, ie con man, ie Bedini).

Devon

[Chester]

I was just kidding, when I said no one was interested in this project. Feed back has been very positive, all along and help has been great.

Here is the current motor circuit of Permogator III and proposed modifications:

Right now, I used the top set of 8 coils for the trigger. They are aligned directly over the bottom set, so as far as alignment, and that is like Bedini, but his trigger windings are on the same coil. I don't know the reason for that, but he uses a diode to isolate his trigger, whereas I don't have to. I do think his idea of a second winding to carry the power off to a battery charger is a neat idea. That way, the output gets to carry the cemf pulse, while my output coils are separate.

The middle panel is my next project. I'm going to remove one of the trigger coils from Permogator III and replace it with a coil the same size, only with filled with 32 magnet wire. The present hole will be enlarged to a slot and the coil itself will be in another slot where its position moved so I can advance it and then secure it in place. My wife voluteered to wind the coil on her sewing machine. If this works, I hope to double the speed. Then install another trigger as an afterburner. Then we'll see how fast she can go still limiting the power input to 4 AA batteries.

If I double it again, that should get me pretty close to the target. But that is to be seen, and I'm not predicting anything.

So, can someone describe how a circuit could be constructed to obtain the effect shown in the lower right hand diagram?

Chester

[JW]

I use this circuit to control futaba RC car servos manually. I do have to replace some of the capacitors and the variable resistor, some fixed resitors too. This changes the freq parameters, then the circuit can communicate with the servo quite reliably.

 For your application you may have to use some creativity to make it compatable, this circuit represents the basic building block of PWM control, and possible syncro-

IC3 is an op-amp or LM-324, IC2 is a -4029, and u1 is a -4011.

Have fun

JW

[finnsawyer]

Too small to test?  I doubt it.  I seem to remember that the diode bridge was rated something like 1000 volts and the capacitor was also fairly high voltage.  This implies fairly high voltage spikes on the capacitors.  In any case, considering that oscilloscopes have amplifiers and that Bedini motors rotate at constant rpms it should be possible to make the measurements.

[Chester]

I've got blisters on my fingers.

I wound a coil with about 400 turns of #32 awg magnet wire and put it in an adjustable housing, so I could test either the advance or delay mode, depending on which way I connect the battery and spin the wheel. But, I can't get the durn thing to fire the transistor.

Is that because I am not producing enough current? Is the transistor considered a load?

My first test had 8 coils with 50 each or 400 total turns #20 awg magnet wire. That set up measured 1.4 ohms of wire resistance and developed about .6 peak volts when the transistor began its job. This easily met the minimum threshold and closed the base emitter junction with some voltage to spare and has some adjustment available via the potentiometer.

The new coil measures 12.4 ohms and develops 1.1 volts as fast as I can spin it by hand. That won't close the base emitter junction. I can't get any more windings on the bobbins I am using, but I could use a slightly bigger bobbin if more windings would help if I had a slightly bigger bobbin. But I think I may be beating a dead horse, since more windings would probably just make more resistance.

Would I be better off going with thicker wire, and maybe less windings?

Is there any way to calculate what else might work, based on what does work? I have a roll of 28 awg magnet wire that I could use.

Chester

[devoncloud]

As a rule, thinner wire will have a smaller "start up speed" but more resistance, meaning you will get power quicker out of it while thicker wire will give you a higher start up speed but less resistance.  So it is kind of a give and take, and you need to find the size of wire that works the best with the output of your unit.

Devon

[Chester]

Spent all day researching transistor minimum voltage requirements.

Finally came upon this webpage, which explains it so even I get some glimmer of understanding, if I'm reading it right.

http://www.electronics.dit.ie/staff/ypanarin/Lecture%20Notes/K235-1/2%20Transistor-Thyristor.pdf

The value that seems to make most of the difference appears to be the Hfe. The lower the value, the higher the current necessary to trigger the Base Emitter, and thus the Emitter Collector.

With the 2N3055 this value is 20. This means I will never be able to trigger it with the single coil of 32 wire I made. I looked again at my other roll of wire and it's AWG 30, not AWG 28 as I thought. It looks I can't get there with the AWG 30 either.

There are power transistors available, however, that will trigger with an Hfe that is greater (meaning less amps) than the 2N3055 but aren't as highly rated on volts and amps. One of these appears to be a 2SD2185. It has a max C-E peak rating of 4 amps and 25 volts. These values are within the range I'm presently operating Permogator III under and may work with the coil I've wound up. So, I guess I'll get some of these transistors and see if they work.

If anyone has an alternate suggestion on a transistor, I'd be pleased to consider it.

The voltage I'm trying to run between the collector and emitter varies between 4.5 and 5.5 volts. The ohms in that circuit I figure to be 1.4, so amps are generally less than 4.

The base current I can generate by hand cranking appears to be about 1.2 volts and 100 milli amps.

Chester

[Chester]

I had high hopes of making a single coil that would fire the 2N3055 tranny. The last one I made was from 26 guage magnet wire, about 350 turns which is the largest gauge wire, the most turns that will fit into my adjustable mechanism. Alas. It doesn't trigger the tranny. I decided against ordering the tranny that operated at 4 amps. For one thing, it cost 70 cents and the only place I find it is digikey and it would cost more to ship it, than it costs. I rebel against such trivia, though sometimes a good idea may go to waste.

So, here is where I'm at. I decided to go ahead and test the Bedini charging system and compare it to an identical Permogator charging system. That is, I made a ferrite core bifilar coil and connected it into my collector circuit. It is separate from the motor, since my motor doesn't respond well with any iron components in the coils. Iron just attracts the magnets and slows the wheel and there isn't a net gain in output. So I have some ferrite bobbins that I wound a bifilar coil with two lengths of 9 feet of 20 gauge magnet wire. The output, rectified and condensed into a 3300 uF 30 volt cap from the secondary winding yields out 12 volts from my 5 volt input. That is with a very light load. I made another identical coil and connected them in series. This combo produces 20 volts from my 5 volt input at the same light load. This I believe gives me the Bedini output system, without having to put iron in my air coil and Neo magnet drive and pulse system.

Still. I don't know if this will charge batteries. My wife absconded with my extra set and they are now in tape recorders and HER appliances. She said I could have them back, if I didn't want her to listen to her tapes. Well. That was beyond where I want to go, so I ordered a whole bunch of new batteries, including a couple 12 volt gel core lead acid. I should get them next week, along with SCRs, trannies, caps, and zener diodes that I intend to construct an auto discharge charger with. I will build two on the same machine. One to operate from the alternator and the other to operate from the Bedini coils and see how they compare.

By the time I get the parts, I expect Fred and Rob will have some test data from their machines, as well.

Should be an interesting test.

[Chester]

This is the pulse charger circuit I intend to use:

It is based on a description that Roamer provided to me.