Author Topic: Px Insert Tst  (Read 2064 times)

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Harry Luubovv

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Px Insert Tst
« on: September 30, 2004, 10:11:01 PM »
Sure hope it works this time !

« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 10:11:01 PM by (unknown) »

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2004, 12:32:27 AM »
Still testing.


This is a photo of an audio amplifier that I built back in 1970 for a friend.


The specification was to make to as simple as possible, and so the "Shabby" look of the front panel. At that time, audio power was not like crazy as today, he only needed somewhat decent sound level so I gave him 20 watts per channel and he cried "GOOD". What happened was, it was not even 20 full watts each channel. The main amplifier was 20 watt/ch. but due to the lower input, it is less. The amp required some 1.7Volt input in order to give 20Watt/ch out. I saved a pre-amp section by using a high output crystal pickup cartridge to drive the main amp direct ! ! The cartridge was less than 1.5V out, lost some volume there but still decent level. Today, I see guys using 500Watt/ch in a car and still yell "Not loud enough !". Time really changed on us all, fads changed and we changed, Have you ever seen guys literally had their rear glass blown out by sounds, landed on the ground, shattered, but still think not enough sound ? ? ? ! ! ! !


The front panel controls are nothing fancy, just simple plainjane bass + treble + balance + volume. The two plugs on the left are speakers plugs. The European plug on the upper right is for auxiliary input. Even the pilot light was homemade, had a sign "Pilot" on it. Don't know if we can see it good or not. The shabby casing was made out of wood and black front matting with cotton at the back. The front aluminum piece was revitalized junked piece, picked up from the street.


Bear in mind again, it is an old photo, faded and all, I try the best to make it look better, but it is really not so good looking.


Happy days Mates,

Harry.


« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 12:32:27 AM by Harry Luubovv »

hiker

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2004, 05:46:25 AM »
damm right!!!

back in the 60s throu  the late 70s it was all about quality sound!!

what ever happend to the true rms rating..

now its all about how many needles controls and bliking lights you have..

not the true quality of sound..

i still have my old pioneer,sony,maranzts,harmoncardone-amplifires and tuners..

not to mention my old turntables--they put out the real sound of music.....

cd"s are so flat sounding--no bass and no high's...

thats why they have to have all these so called big amps..

they think there getting good bass--what a joke..

its all nothing but distored sound..

i still shop around the thrift stores and pick up some good quality 70s amps ..

oh-----speakers!! they made them the best in the 70s-

tell me --if you can what a cross over net work is--horn tweeters -mid range spk-

dome tweeters--woffers..

the younger generation has no idea what i talk of--its a shame!!

digatal music really sucks--and thats what all they play on the radio now..

so the younger generation has no idea what music really should sound like..

damm right--when i want to here some good sounds i toss on one of my old records..

or go live!!   take it for what you want..............1953

well i guess i got that out of my system[for now]..

sorry harry-- i guess this should go to the rant and rave section!!!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 05:46:25 AM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2004, 09:52:19 AM »
Hiker,


It is ok for the rant. We used to have vacuum tube amps before, and that was nice sound, more natural than today's CD sounds ! ! Today's sounds however, have their own thrills to it, they have that funky ways in their own unique arena. Just like in the old days, one can ride a cymbal a hundred ways and get different sounds out of that. Today, we use electronics simulations, so we get that mechanical sounds intsead, we can never get the back rides and so forth with cymbals nor snare drums etc. But as far as the youths are concerned, what we determined to be "Flat" or "Without changes", is the required sounds for them ! They like to hear mechanical sounds or engineered sounds.


Ciao mate,

Harry.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 09:52:19 AM by Harry Luubovv »

devoncloud

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2004, 06:09:12 AM »
actually Hiker, tube amps are making a rather large comeback.  New technologies made them extremely quiet and produce a very crisp, clear sound.  You can find them in just about any home theater store.  If you liked the sound before, wait till you hear these ones!  Same clarity, but 0 static..... great combo.

Devon
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 06:09:12 AM by devoncloud »

wooferhound

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2004, 10:09:48 AM »
 In an audio forum this guy said that his car stereo vibrated his car so much that he had to tighten the screws on his tail lights regularly to keep the colored plastic from falling off. I was wondering about all the screws that he could'nt see ?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 10:09:48 AM by wooferhound »

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2004, 10:14:59 AM »
One of the obvious problems with CD sounds is, the audio range is greatly compressed. Especially with classical music, we can lose that dynamic range and thus lose that origially important feature of classicals.


These days, some of the recording studios do use vacuum tubes amps, and small portion of live bands too. But the problem is, the new generation sounds engineers usually do stick to the newer ideas and have the sounds adjusted somewhat close to CD sounds if not CD sounds. I can't kill them all, perhaps some do better, but with modern music, I do not see it better hearing them from CD's on newly recorded music. I have some very old recordings on records and I can tell you, they are some "Recordings" ! The best recording so far after the war were many of those recorded in London and Germany in the 50' & 60', even some back in the 40' ! For example, if in stereo, they used two mikes, or a little more, but the new music use 32 or more mikes ! I record live only with 2 mikes, the least electronics the sounds are going through, the least mixing and remixing after recording, the least distortion there are going to be. I record my own sounds before and you can hear every drop of voice clearly and cleanly, I especially let vocal be up front. Comparing, CD's are jokes, I dare saying ! Some people might not like the modesty they read here, but I am blunt when it comes to reality talks, sorry. Many recording engineers & producers marvelled over these recordings, they wanted to know how to do it, but when taught, they refused to do it themselves. First-come-first-served really plays a role in our minds, it is what came into the minds first and settled, that occupy the mind space, that become a fixed permanent ideal no matter what. And what we learn after, becomes only "Secondary consideration" but not to be something to be applied. Funny we human behavours, isn't it ?


PS : I mean no offence to anyone, if it sounded so in the text, thanks for reading.


Have a jolly good day mates,

Harry L.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 10:14:59 AM by Harry Luubovv »

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2004, 10:28:47 AM »
Ha ha Woofer,


That's true what they said there. In our business, we eventually ended up selling thread-lock materials in the little tubes. Because it became a connvenience that they bought a speaker a woofer or something, and picked up the little tube at the same store. Many of their screws on the cars were falling lose after a while, and I mean those screws that are self tapping type or other types whith sharp points.


Have a nice day, all !

Harry was here !

« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 10:28:47 AM by Harry Luubovv »

devoncloud

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2004, 01:01:27 AM »
Being an ex D.J. i do have a good bit of knowledge about sound (especially new technologies), and you are right, CD's do loose some effect due to compression (if big companies did the recording and not you), but they also add some things too.  You gain clarity of the recording, you gain lifespan of the recording, and the recording is in a digital format which catches the live recording better than almost any other sort of recording devise out there, especially if you use firewires (digital signal wires)in order to make the signal as static free as you can.  If the big studio companies would leave the recordings alone after this, then you would not have the apparent downfall from CD's (which is the compression).  


It would seem as though these companies would catch on that this does not make their recordings "better". All that anyone would have to do to realize that CD's are not looked at right now as the optimal recording choice would be to look at the D.J.'s of today to see what they are playing..... they are still playing records.  There is all sorts of equipment out there for D.J.'s to use CD's if they wanted too, yet they choose not to.  They do this because they do not like the compression either, yet the big music companies will not stop using the compression for some reason.


As far as the tube amps, they are comming back, and have been for a few years now.  It is happening very slow, but it is happening.  The new tube amps are not the same as the old ones however.  they are crisper in sound, no feedback or static of any kind, and they do not overheat.  while they have done away with the bad features of the old tubes, they still hold that raw, crisp, clean sound that everyone loved the tube amp sound for in the first place.  You get the best of both worlds so to speak, but since tube amps were replaced at one time, the comeback has been slower than anticipated because it is hard to convince people that something that was once replaced by something better is now the best choice again.

Devon.

 

« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 01:01:27 AM by devoncloud »

devoncloud

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2004, 01:14:07 AM »
oh ya, and do not forget about surround sound either here boys.... CD or not, the expensive surround sound systems (not the cheap Best Buy ones, but the ones that are THX certified) cannot be beat as far as a listening devise.  Nothing comes close.  If you get a Denon amplifier that is THX Certified and in 7.1 surround sound (it sounds even better than 5.1 does, trust me) then there is no quality of sound that can come close to it. Harry, even your classical music played on a CD but in one of these new machines will be a listening pleasure you will never forget.  You do have to pay a pretty penny however.

Devon
« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 01:14:07 AM by devoncloud »

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2004, 03:39:57 AM »
Compression is an inherent feature to CDs'. They have to be this way because of the digital part of the recording on vinyl being burned, that is the way data goes into CDs, the tracks can only be cut so deep and so wide, unless if they would find a way later to do it differently.


Yes I agree, from the basic starting point, digital recording is cleaner because they don't have the associated mechanical additional of noises, they are digital, the music-keeping media are simulations of sounds in data form, unlike the analog recording which is recorded from start directly on the audio frequencies, it is these audio frequencies that are easy to be contaminated when recording and processing.


Then it is too, the way how the original recordings are done at the "Front end" of electronics, which has nothing to do with the electronics elements of the equipments. That is, before the signal goes into the main electronics equipments, the placements of the microphones, the gackground audio environments. Then comes the clipping of the audio signals during recordings at loud passages, and even teaching the vocalists how to use the microphones correctly. Talking to many recording engineers before, I've gathered that most recording artists do not know at all how to use the mikes correctly, few do but most not. And I've seen many artists on stage not knowing how to do effective miking techniques and that is common. An then it is the isolations of the various instruments played in same room, one instrument will affect the cleanliness of sounds to another instrument deeply that way. But most bands do not feel comfortable if the group separated even only be divided by large glass panes. However now we have digital recordings, we can record one instrument at a time and combine all after. I do not play instrument, but I can play one note at a time on an instrument, and the computer will combine them all, AS IF I PLAYED for real ! ! ! But there are a song or two that I played kboard bass in real time recording, sounds nice, when you have a chance Devon one day, you can listen to some of the songs perhaps. I featured love songs. I did mainly big band songs, Frank Sinatra style, did many Socca, Calypso, upbeat Jass, some modern pops and even did good on rap songs, which was just an experiment, just to show them that I could do it and could do it well but I really do not like to do raps. I did them for personal pleasures, I don't sell them even though I could. When I was active, I did earn money on mostly functions catering to the rich and famous, that was before, not now. Since you were a DJ, it seems that Devond you and I do have something in common because, at times when DJs' had to get off for a small bit, I scratched few songs as well, not a good scratcher I admit, but I did a little.


Your conclusion about CDs' Devon, are the same that I usually read about from various sources.


Funny, I used to be a Hi-Fi enthusiast from early teen, I have come long way. Yet I actually did not sell these high end audio items (Like Harmon Kar. etc)in the store during all of those years in operation ! I never dreamt that it would have been that way from start. It was so because of comsumers' demands, we sold general electronics more than anything else like in the Hi-Fi arena. I do not consider those car 1,000 watters to be "High end" stuff regardless of costs !


Have a nice day from I who was here,

Harry.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 03:39:57 AM by Harry Luubovv »

devoncloud

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2004, 09:11:03 AM »


the car enthususiasts with the loud car systems are crazy.  But if you were to look at it from a DIY electric standpoint, it is kind of neat!  I have seen some of these vehicles replace their one alternator with more than five alternators that produce more power than the alternators in 18 wheel big trucks!  They produce quite alot of power out of some of those cars!  If they would consider putting that power to some better use than a music system powerful enough to put on a show at a basketball arena, They may be able to do something quite cool with those designs!  They pay for wattage, not clarity of sound in their system.  the clarity in car equipment comes from how much you pay to have your panels in your car insulated from rattling.... this takes an incredible amount of money and time, you pretty much have to take your car apart, insulate every panel, and then put it back together with plastic inserts in every screw, noise-deadeners on the surface of every panel, and everything else if you want to do it right.  I have seen people spend more than thirty thousand dollars on a car sound system, and their car was not worth ten!  These people are crazy in my book... If I spent thirty thousand dollars on a music system, it would be in my house, and I would have the most awesome home theatre system in Texas.


I did not DJ rap music, nor was I a "scratcher" type of DJ Harry.  That is just one type of DJ out there.  If the truth be known, I cant stand that rap crap.  It has been the same since 1985.  The same things get repeated over and over again, and all they are talking about is how they can rap better than anyone else or violence.  Personaly, the arrogance of it all and the lack of respect they show for their common man disgusts me.


I DJ'd the electronic dance music... it is a completely different style.  whyle they do all the scratching to make more sounds in a song they are playing, my style of DJ'ing was mathing beats from one song with another, "layering" two songs if you will, making the transition sound as seemless as possible.  In my line of DJ'ing, if the crowd did not notice you went from one song to another, you made a perfect transition.  This is where the skill of my type of DJ'ing began to come into the equation instead of the rapper's scratching.  Besides transitions, in my style you are also a "story teller" of sorts.  There is not many words in this type of music, so it sounds a little funny  calling it storytelling, but that is what it is none the less.... you tell a story with the beat of the music.  You take the crowd on a roller coaster ride.  With this type of DJ'ing, you have complete control over your crowd.  You take them up and down.  You take them up and everyone is dancing, then you take them down again in order to cool off and take a break (and go buy drinks since at clubs that is how the bills are paid).  You take them through intense musical sound and really get them moving, and then slowly take them down to a calm easy beat to give them a sense of euphoria and love for the person they are dancing with (if they are dancing with someone, alot of times with this kind of music they are dancing by themselves).  You are constantly reading your crowd.  You have to be in a constant state of awareness of what they are ready for.  And, on top of that, you need to make sure that the club owner is happy with the amount of drink sales that are occurring.  Beleive it or not, in these clubs, all this is controlled by the DJ!!!


I understand what you are talking about as far as being able to piece bits and pieces of songs together Harry.  As a matter of fact, these types of music engineering softwares are what make my style of music I DJ possible.  I have played around with them a good bit.  I was always a better story teller than a creater however, hense my little side career as a DJ.  I still have my equipment and play around a little here and there, but have not actually done any shows in over five years now.

Thanks for taking me down memmory lane though!!!

Well I must go.  My real job is sending me to Milwaukee for all of next week for training.  I will catch up with all you DIY'ers next weekend I suppose.  

Have a great week!

Devon

« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 09:11:03 AM by devoncloud »

Harry Luubovv

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Re: Px Insert Tst
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2004, 02:37:19 PM »
Yes Devon, I do agree with you on the raps, they don't sound like music the way music should be, they "Talk music", they do not sing it. So they appear to be "Rough" unpolished sounds lumping out one word at a time. And I agree also, that most of the rap artists do involve personally in some type of troubles, and this leads to public misguidance because public artists are large models to societies and everyone just follows right or wrong. And then the lyrics generally in them, they are down low grades or even filthy. But a few are positive, especially those that are made to target the youth but trying to guide them into the good side of life, they are different raps.


When I said "Scratch" I did mean including the matching of beats etc, to transit between a live band and CD's or tapes etc when the band was about to head off stage for a break or something.


Getting back a bit to CD music. Perhaps the biggest problem is the way how music is "Copied" into the "Tracks". What happens is, analog method is to capture the full every bit of live sounds produced that have been transferred into electrical impulses from microphones. But CD music only registers the ongoing music in intermittent "Grabs", if you will. This is called "Sampling" I am sure you are aware of. In other words, CD will take a sample of the live sound signature every now and then only, missing out on the live music in between time, the "In-between" music is never presented ! ! ! Another way of saying it, they take a full undamaged waveform of an original sinewave corrosponding to audio from artists, and cut that up to pieces and choose some areas only for reproduction, the rest is being throw away ! ! This creates "Holes" in music comparing to full live sounds. And that is why digital music will never be as full as old vinyl records, not yet, at least at this time ! !


Harry ? He was here !

« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 02:37:19 PM by Harry Luubovv »