Author Topic: Newbie:Solar System Sizing  (Read 2127 times)

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jasbook

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Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« on: February 21, 2005, 03:28:17 AM »


  • I need 8 hours of non-stop power supply to below items.
  • My location having 8hours sun-light daily.


[[ My Equipment Requirement ]]

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'240volt AC appliances' 'Watts' 'No of Unit'  'X Hours Run/Day'   [Total watts Per Day]

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Air-Cond                2500        2                   8         [40000]

TV                      200         1                   8         [1600]

Lights                  15          4                   8         [480]

miscellaneous           1000        1                  10         [10000]

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Total watt hours Per Day = 52080

Divide by 12 volt = 4340 amps

+ 30% safety margin = 5642 amps


[[ Power Sizing Calculation Sheet ]]

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'Equipment Needs'     'Type'                            'Tech. Specification' [Units Need/Install]

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BP Solar 125watts                                       ( 4 Panel )           [5642/152=38 unit of PV]

model 3125            Parallel/Series wiring(4 Panel)   A=2.29*2=4.58

                      - 8 Hours sun-light available     V=16.6*2=33.2

                      at my location                    Total=152 A

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Charge Controller:                                                            [1 Unit]

Solar Boost 50 12/24V 50A                               

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PVX-2580L Sun Xtender,

Sealed AGM Deep Cycle battery,12V305AH                  12V 305ah             [5642/305=19 Units]

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SWR 2500U SunnyBoy Grid Tie 2500W Inverter                                    [1 Unit]

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Other :- ( Do I need those items below )           

 - Module Interconnect-cable Assemblies           



  • Module Interconnect Light Tight Conduit Asemblies (LT)           
  • Auto Transfer Switch           
  • Breaker Panel           

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 03:28:17 AM by (unknown) »

jimovonz

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2005, 09:09:32 PM »
Something looks wrong with your calcs. It looks like you want to get 52kWh/day from 4 x 125w panels... Four 125w panels on a fixed mount may get you 2.5kWh/day (2500 watt hours) if your area is reasonably sunny. Where is the other 49.5kWh comming from?


At 52kWh/day I hope you have deep pockets... You need to seriously look at reducing your usage before you consider powering your house with PV/Solar.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 09:09:32 PM by jimovonz »

BT Humble

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2005, 10:06:19 PM »
Everything looked fine (albeit enormous) up to the 52,000Wh per day line.


If you're planning to go that big (and that's quite big, by any standards) you're better off with a 48V system, or 24V at the very least.  Anyway, for the sake of argument we'll assume you stay with 12V.


52000Wh / 12V = 4300Ah required per day.  Let's round that up to 4500Ah, to acount for system inefficiencies.


If we assume that your average 125W panel will put out 10A at 12V, then that panel will need to stay in full sun for 4500Ah / 10A = 450 hours, which assuming that you do get 8 full-sun hours a day (5 or 6 would be more common) would come to 56 days.


So if you want to recharge your batteries fully each day and use 52kWh of electricity, you'll need about 56 of these panels.


Now for the battery.  The usual procedure is to have enough capacity that 3 days of no input only drops the battery to about 70% (ie. you've only used the top 30% of its capacity).  To do that, you'd need 4500Ah * 3 days / 0.3 = 45,000Ah of capacity.


That will require 147 of those batteries you mention (so it's a good thing they're AGM and not flooded cells that you have to top up every month!)


Alternatively you could purchase a suitably sized generator for cloudy days, and that way you'll only need about 1/3 of the battery bank, or about 50 batteries.


Of course, if you eliminate the air conditioners from the equation you only need 12kWh (1000Ah) per day, which would let you get away with 25 panels and 32 batteries, or 11 batteries if you use the generator for cloudy days.


This is why relatively few people try to run air conditioners from solar PV systems.


BTH

(24V system, 560W of PV, 1000Ah of battery, harvesting approximately 100Ah per day).

« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 10:06:19 PM by BT Humble »

BT Humble

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2005, 10:13:28 PM »
One other thing:  So far as I know the SunnyBoy inverters are for grid-tie use (ie. feeding power back to the grid) and NOT for standalone (ie.drawing power from batteries) use.


Also, if you're planning to run both air condioners, your TV, your lights and your Misc stuff at the same time, you'll need (2500 * 2) + 200 + (15 * 4) + 1000 = 6260W of inverter capacity, which means you'd need to buy 3 of them.


And yes, you would need those "other" items.


BTH

« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 10:13:28 PM by BT Humble »

jimjjnn

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2005, 10:13:44 PM »
52Kw a day !!!  That is a huge amount.

How large a house are you cooling and where is it located. I have 2200 sq ft and only use 1/2 that in winter. Something has to be wrong with your calculations.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 10:13:44 PM by jimjjnn »

pyrocasto

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2005, 06:16:17 AM »
Oh boy. First off, 50kwh a day is not insane, considering this house uses 100...


Basically, your gonna need at least 10kw of panels to do this, and that will cost you $30,000 US alone. Though you say you get 8 hours of sunlight, you will not collect but about 5 or so's worth in the pv. Then, you have to get the batteries. As BT said, you will want a generator, or 3 days worth of power. That's about 13,500ah of 12v batteries if you dont use one.

"Charge Controller:                                                            [1 Unit]

Solar Boost 50 12/24V 50A"

This is wrong again. If you can charge 4,500ah a day, then you will need close to 1000 amp CC @ 12(which is why you go 48).


Then for the inverter. You need probably a 10kw inverter easily, maybe more. If you use all the appliances at the same time, then that would be 6.26kw continuously, which means 15kw would be a nice inverter.


Basically, you wont get this system for less than $40,000 unless you're lucky as poo, or build it yourself. I suggest cut down on cost, and start slowely.(unless your rich ;) )

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 06:16:17 AM by pyrocasto »

pyrocasto

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2005, 06:20:09 AM »
PS. I didnt even include inefficiencies of the system, or the fact that you must stay over 20% battery charge. You will be spending more than you wish I'm guessing, if you dont cut down ALOT. Try better insulation, instead of running the AC for 8 hours a day.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 06:20:09 AM by pyrocasto »

ghurd

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2005, 07:38:06 AM »
I believe $60K would even be a pipe dream.


The solar insolation needs adjusted... a lot.


Anything this big is going to get some attention.  Everything would have to be UL listed and probably installed by licenced people.


That 'Other' stuff is going to be costly.  Yes, you need it... and more.


A system this big is going to have considerable 'forgotten' parts cost. ie.- wire, SS hardware, mounting brackets, conduit, etc.  "Just a few screws and some bigger wire" could be very expensive on a scale like this.


G-

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 07:38:06 AM by ghurd »
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sawyer335

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2005, 08:09:36 AM »
Why don't you use a small DC diesel generator to run when you need the A/C, and charge the batteries, and help the solar panels (and pocketbook!)out? AND, AND, AND... Cost, $1,000 or so, and it will run on most any (veggie, diesel, etc) fuel.


I know, it isn't pristinely efficient if you use a car alternator, AND if you use diesel it might smell on occasion... but it is SO PRACTICAL!!


That will take most all of the pain out of the equations, and allow you to reasonably size all of the components. Plus, if you want to, you can use some of the excess heat to heat water. George shows how to do that at www.utterpower.com .


A fairly large one will run 24/7 on three gallons of fuel per day, medium on 2 gallons/day, and small on 1 gallon of fuel (per 24 hour) day.


So you now have a 250 gallon tank of fuel (enough for a long time!), and a backup which is VERY real, and you can run 30 days without the wind blowing (or when a blade breaks!!!), or the sun shining, for $200 or less. (and not have to buy 100 batteries)


Dan B knows I am not BS-ing about any of this.

Regards,

Joel

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 08:09:36 AM by sawyer335 »

pyrocasto

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2005, 12:09:58 PM »
$60K! Where are you buying your panels!? Would it really be $30,000 for inverters, batteries, CC, and wiring/installation? Hope not.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 12:09:58 PM by pyrocasto »

ghurd

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2005, 01:24:28 PM »
If the PVs can be had for $3 a watt, and that is real good now (for a decent panel).  >$4 a watt is more like it.


When PVs could be easily had for $3 a watt, a 'complete' system was considered a 'good deal' at $10 to $15 a watt.


That was before costs went up. Lead in the batteries went up 2.5X. Cu is up. Steel trippled just since when?  Gas (UPS+FedX) is up... again.


Don't forget to add all UL parts for something that will draw attention and need inspected.  Welding cables won't cut the mustard.  The PVs will need to be UL too, leaving out some of the 'more reasonably priced' manufacturers.


Now figure what you pay a Union Electrician (no union = no install around here) to drink coffee while contimplating the wonders of the universe for 6 of the 8 work hours in a day.


I wish it was not this way.  But it is.

G-

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 01:24:28 PM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2005, 01:28:14 PM »
And oh yea, forgot.

Forgot about the 'solar insolation adjustment'.

Doubling everything is going to double the cost.

NOW add everything else.

G-
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 01:28:14 PM by ghurd »
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elvin1949

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2005, 06:11:03 PM »
there is

a/c will not draw that much.

it cycles on and off.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 06:11:03 PM by elvin1949 »

pyrocasto

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2005, 11:15:45 AM »
Yeah forgot about the non adjusting panels, that will ad more. As for price, I've found that if you are buying mass quantities like this, you can easily get them under $4 a watt. There is a deal on Ebay that keeps coming up(not on there right now) for 10,000 watts for $28k(without shipping). That's a pretty good deal in my opinion.


Ok jasbook, just forget about complete RE until you've cut down on your energy costs. Fans in the attic and such, can cut down on your AC a huge amount.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 11:15:45 AM by pyrocasto »

ghurd

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Re: Newbie:Solar System Sizing
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 11:49:34 AM »
I think those were amorphus silicon.  And not many people will go with 10kw at one time.  A good deal either way.

G-
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 11:49:34 AM by ghurd »
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