Author Topic: 2 cylinder VAWT  (Read 12659 times)

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rotornuts

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2 cylinder VAWT
« on: June 08, 2005, 03:51:15 AM »
I was googling for info last night to learn more about airflow around cylinders under diff. conditions etc. and I had this idea pop in my head. I was curious to see how well a straight cylinder would work in close proximity to another. I thought about it after reading some structural engineering goop about columns and thier spacings and how it affects lift forces on the columns.





Just goofing around but it works not bad


The tabs/flaps/trailing edge thingies or whatever you'd like to call them are to simply let the unit know which way to turn but I'd bet it woud keep rotating in the same direction without them if you nudged it at the start. BTW, it self starts nicely.


The simple plan




Anyhow, just having some fun.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:51:15 AM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 11:51:24 PM »
slick roto, very slick! do you think your geting any of the venturi effect you've been looking for? if looks fab. from any direction.whats your gut feeling on rpm/torque. if the thingies could seperate and distend from the cylinders you could get a darius type boost. if the next one is shaped like a yin yang symbol...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 11:51:24 PM by electrondady1 »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 12:18:46 AM »
Funny you should say because the next one is shaped like a yin yang symbol. I'm just trying to work out the space between.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 12:18:46 AM by rotornuts »

XRay

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 01:42:37 AM »
What happened to the venturi (Lenz whatever) rotor?

I have seen this before, but the cylinders where rotating creating lift.


Ray

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 01:42:37 AM by XRay »

ghurd

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 07:19:15 AM »
At least the neighbors can't complain about it.

They won't even know what it is!

G-
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 07:19:15 AM by ghurd »
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rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2005, 07:24:59 AM »
This little thing actually should utilize the venturi effect through the center to accelerate the shed vorticies and help them adhear to the opposite cylinder on the down wind side creating additional lift, If it wasn't for the axle possibly screwing that up. That's the theory anyway. I did this thing because I'm trying to understand the airflow around these things better. It's interesting what starts to happen as the rpm increases but it's nearly impossible to predict because of the unusual flow characteristics of rotating cylinders of varying surface roughness. I know the unit as a whole isn't a cylinder but the faster it rotates the more it "appears" as one. With a hole through the center I'd speculate the air flow throught the center simply occilates at higher rpm. I'm hoping to learn something from these kinds of experiments. Also as a rotating cylinder regardless of surface roughness accelerates the angles of the incoming and departing airflows changes as the stagnation points starty to move towards the upwind side of the cylinder. Question is how to take full advantage of that. Another question in my mind is what kind of effect does the boundry layer around the cylinder as a whole have on reducing the drag on the upwind side if any at all. A blunt leading edge like in the above model should present alot of drag but as part of a rotating cylinder it may not be that bad.


I'd give my left...  for a wind tunnel.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 07:24:59 AM by rotornuts »

Kwazai

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2005, 07:28:43 AM »
will one of these vawt run off a ventilator fan( three speed window fan)?

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 07:28:43 AM by Kwazai »

electrondady1

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2005, 07:45:52 AM »
coming up with a windmill design that is visualy beautiful as well as functional will be the best contribution any of us could make. a few percentage points on the efficientcy scale won't help much if at some point joe average and his wife are out shopping for something to stick on there lawn.  how about a self starting tibetan prayer wheel, we need all the help we can get!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 07:45:52 AM by electrondady1 »

ghurd

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2005, 08:15:23 AM »
They dimple golf balls for some kind of improvement.


Stray thought,

G-

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 08:15:23 AM by ghurd »
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rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 08:46:35 AM »
The dimples create a turbulent boundry layer rather than a laminar one. the turbulent boundry layer stays attached to the sphere longer reducing overall drag.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 08:46:35 AM by rotornuts »

XRay

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 08:52:44 AM »
I have difficulties to imagine how lift is created on the down site, actually the hole concept gifs me difficulty's.

I must add it to my long to do list and make a model and use some white smoke in a carton box wind tunnel to see the airflow. I was thinking about smoke from a model train smoke generator. It's a little pill or some fluid heated up creating fat white smoke.


Ray

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 08:52:44 AM by XRay »

kitno455

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2005, 09:50:19 AM »
go to heating and cooling section of home improvement store, or if they dont have it, an hvac shop.


they have smoke pens, work pretty well, not as thick as model train stuff though.


allan

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 09:50:19 AM by kitno455 »

windstuffnow

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2005, 10:38:23 AM »
Hi Mike,

   Great creative thinking there! What is the diameter of the little unit?  I was tossing some numbers around for it and it actually works and shows some fairly decient numbers.  Typically the cylinders have a fairly high Cd, somewhere very close to 1 in free air until you get the speed up.  Once the speed comes up the RN comes up considerably and reduces the Cd to around .47 as the speed increases you can actually Reduce Cd to .08 in a RN of around 400,000.   The trick is to get the speed to a point where it creates a turbulant boundary layer behind the cylinder.  The venturi effect should help considerably with that and reduce the RN necessary to achieve the same result.  In free air the Boundary layer will experience early separation creating high drag, separating from the cylinder at aroun 83 degrees from the front.  The low pressure created behind the unit will help hold the flow farther around thus creating a smaller high turbulant area thus reducing the Cd considerably.


Have you done any torque tests on it yet?  I'll bet it has a very low start up torque but probably has a good steady torque at speed.  I'll have to slab one together to play with sometime this summer!  Great thinking!


I recieved some parts for my single wing VAWT yesterday but things have been so busy here lately I haven't had a chance to modify them and get them in place.  I'm hoping I have some time to finish this up by this weekend.  With the new parts I'm only going to be able to move the wing angle up to 45 degrees and I'm not sure that will be enough.   It will be fine for low winds/ extreemly high torque but it will reduce my original TSR from 2 down to around 1.7.  


Ain't this stuff just way to much fun?!!!


Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 10:38:23 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

finnsawyer

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 10:39:15 AM »
I think the flaps will have an effect on the operation of the device.  When a fluid flow encounters a cylinder, it will tend to double in speed as if goes around the cylinder.  In your diagram a pressure will develop against both the top flap and the bottom flap due to the air flow around the structure.  As the structure turns, both the top and bottom flaps will have a force in the direction of rotation (clockwise as shown).  With increasing speed the maximum force will tend to shift toward the lower flap.  It appears that in principle this could rotate with the speed of the flaps up to twice the incident wind speed.  An obvious thing to check is this maximum speed for a well balanced and designed example.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 10:39:15 AM by finnsawyer »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 06:00:35 PM »
Hi Ed,


I have no info on performance. I need to get a wind meter and a small alt to start testing some of these small models. I agree with your assesment on getting the speed up there which is why I made this model with a high aspect ratio. It's only 6.25" diameter by 13.5 high so it's usless for gathering perfomance info.


Like you always say so much fun so little time(and these days money)


Btw, I've seen CL figures of 1.6 for some rotating cylinders. Were talking some high reynolds though.


See below for a small modification


Mike

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 06:00:35 PM by rotornuts »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 06:10:00 PM »
Agreed GeoM, The flaps are needed but I wonder how bad or for how long.


Anyway I made a small modification today. Below is a picture. It'd a trip wire just inside the circumference on the lead edge. Should help with startup and and cruise performance. It acts similar to vortex generators so the boundry layer should stay attached longer over a greater percentage of the rotation. Look for thr little white strip on the lead edge.





So far it seems to be working as planned. Startup is smoother and I'm seeing better and smoother rotation at lower windspeeds(visual).


Still having fun and learning lots.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 06:10:00 PM by rotornuts »

electrondady1

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2005, 06:55:20 PM »
i don't know what "Cd "  stands for or "rn " for that mater.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 06:55:20 PM by electrondady1 »

RP

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2005, 07:07:23 PM »
Cd Coefficient of drag,  RN short for Reynolds Number
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 07:07:23 PM by RP »

hvirtane

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2005, 11:31:53 PM »
Really nice.


I think that this experiment

is really interesting.


I'm wondering, if it

really performs better than

a well shaped Savonius.


---


I wanted to point out here

the same thing, which I've

posted on this site

already earlier.


Most of the people

have got a wrong opinion

about the efficiency

of the savonius rotor.


According to American

research it is actually

quite good.


Unfortunately

the efficiency is put

wrong in most text books

about wind energy.


See below.


-----


From:


Wind Energy Systems

by Dr. Gary L. Johnson November 20, 2001  

http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/    


----


 Agreement on the efficiency

of the Savonius turbine apparently

has finally been reached a

half century after its development.

Savonius claimed an efficiency

of 31 per cent in the wind

tunnel and 37 per cent

in free air.

However, he commented:

[10] "The calculations of Professor

Betz gave 20 % as the highest

theoretical maximum

for vertical airwheels, which under the

best of circumstances could

not produce more

than 10 % in practical output."

The theoretical

and experimental results failed

to agree. Unfortunately,

Savonius did not specify the shape

and size of his turbine well

enough for others

to try to duplicate his results.


A small unit of approximately

2 m high by 1 m diameter

was built and tested at Kansas

State University during the period

1932-1938[6]. This unit was

destroyed by a high wind, but

efficiencies of 35 to 40 %

were claimed by the researchers.

Wind tunnel tests were performed

by Sandia on 1.5 m high by 1 m

diameter Savonius turbines,

with a maximum efficiency

measured of 25 % for

semicircular blades[1].


Different blade shapes

which were tested at the

University of Illinois showed

a maximum efficiency of

about 35 %[5].

More Savonius turbines

were tested at Kansas State

University, with efficiencies

reported of about 25 %[13, 4].

It thus appears that the Savonius,

if properly designed,

has an efficiency nearly as good as the

horizontal axis propeller turbine

or the Darrieus turbine.

The Savonius turbine therefore

holds promise in applications

where low to medium technology

is required or where the high

starting torque is important.


A chart of efficiency of five

different turbine types

is shown in Fig. 8. The efficiency or

power coefficient varies with

the ratio of blade tip speed

to wind speed, with the peak value

being the number quoted for

a comparison of turbines.

This will be discussed in more detail

in Chapter 4. It may be noticed

that the peak efficiencies

of the two bladed propeller, the

Darrieus, and the Savonius

are all above 30 %, while

the American Multiblade and the Dutch

windmills peak at about 15 %.

These efficiencies indicate

that the American Multiblade is

not competitive for

generating electricity,

even though it is almost

ideally suited and very

competitive for pumping water.


The efficiency curves for

the Savonius and

the American Multiblade have

been known for

a long time[6, 10].

Unfortunately, the labels

on the two curves

were accidentally interchanged

in some key publication

in recent years, with the result

that many authors have used an

erroneous set of curves

in their writing. This historical

accident will probably take years to

correct.


------

------


- Hannu

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 11:31:53 PM by hvirtane »

XRay

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2005, 03:16:18 AM »
Rotornuts, can you explain the relationship between the cylinder diameter and the gap between the cylinders?


This strip looks a bit big, I thing a tiny sharp strip will do the job. It will become a negative drag component when tsr>1 I think?


I must be creasy not have seen the lift part of this funny rotor.

While the cylinders are rotating on their common axis they create lift, see this nice online simulation tool from nasa:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html

Choose input -> Shape/Angle

Choose Shape-> Cylinder

And adjust Spin rpm, Radius, Span.


Greetings,

Ray

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 03:16:18 AM by XRay »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2005, 06:34:57 AM »
I've noticed even these days I'll read a paper that was published on a subject pertaining to turbine modifications to improve performance and realize the individuals involved didn't really understand the the working conditions of the turbine or they will have operated off previous assumtions. This of course leads to a distorted picture of reality and inaccurate results. Alone it wouldn't really matter but I'll then see the same information repeated again and again as though it is gospel by folks who rather report on others work rather than do thier own and voila, a myth is born.


If I told someone, ok, mount two cylinders on a rotating disk with a small flap to distort airflow and you'll have something that spins not bad, I'd get funny looks. I tend to forget the common you can't do that stuff and forge on thinking, well it may not work when you do that but what about? Of course I'm known for not knowing when to give up.  

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:34:57 AM by rotornuts »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2005, 06:55:25 AM »
Morning Ray,


I've used the Nasa sim. before. It's very helpfull at first. Now you have to try and visualize what irregularities such as the two cylinders and intermitent pressure drops and spikes might do to the flow. The size of the strips reflects the size of the model. The lower the Reynolds number the larger the features need to be. It's kinda why you can get away with crude models like the ones I've been doing. The airflow at these sizes is responsive but forgiving. I'm very curious have this will scale. I didn't use any hard theories on gap to diameter ratios I just made the spacing half the cylinder diameter. Too much space and the flow off the upwind cylinder may not adhear to the downwind cylinder with enough energy, too little space an you needlessly restrict air flow. I don't know yet how to properly calculate spaces to manipulate the airflow the way I want but I'm looking for info. I almost forgot, the stall strips(Trip wire) are just within the circumference of the unit so as the rpm increases they fall out of use, almost. I may want to move them inboard a touch more, we'll see.


Mike

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:55:25 AM by rotornuts »

electrondady1

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2005, 09:47:04 AM »
you've added a small dia. tube or wire to the cylinders just ahead of the flat flap thingie? this creates a vortex in the air which moves over the surface of the flap as it rotates? this is an improvement over a smooth surface displacing the air as it rotates? i don't understand enough about fluid dynamics to appreciate what your doing. i would have thought a fast smooth air flow over the exterior surface would increase speed/ reduce presure , and increase lift. turbulent air on the inside of the "wing" creates pressure. have i got that wrong?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:47:04 AM by electrondady1 »

kitno455

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2005, 11:16:06 AM »
if i recall from my fluid dyn classes:


on highly curved leading surfaces or high AoA, the air is so highly deflected that it cannot follow the shape around the crest of the airfoil. this leads to stalling as a huge eddy forms directly over the lifting surface. on less curved surfaces, thick boundary layer is a problem. the extra drag caused by long bodies building up boundary layers can be significant, especially since aircraft control surfaces are trailing edge of airfoil.


if you 'screw up' the airflow you add small eddies into the boundary layer.


for the first problem, turbulent boundary makes it more likely that some component of the air motion is already headed around the object. prevents separation.


for the second problem, turbulent boundary has no net direction in relation to outer layers of air, so less force is transfered, hence less drag.


in this case, probably more of the first problem than the second? or did i miss something :)


allan

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 11:16:06 AM by kitno455 »

rotornuts

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2005, 12:46:51 PM »
Ok, heres how I'm looking at it. I did a couple illustrations with crude streamlines added to show the effect I'm hoping for.


As I understand it it's kind of an energy thing. As the air flows over or around a surface it loses energy and it's ability to remain attached to the surface. A trip wire/slot/slat or vortex generator creates vorticies or eddies which are energetic and will share some of thier energy with the airflow allowing it to stay attached longer thereby increasing lift and reducing drag and stall. Trip wires are probably the worst of the above devices for delaying separation(higher drag penalty) but they are the easiest to make.


So you may ask yourself if there is a drag penalty to these devices how can there be a benefit? Because the increased lift and reduction in drag is greater than the drag induced by the device.


The first illustration shows the flow without the trip wire with the unit in the stall position. The unit will not start to rotate untill the lift on the lead edge is greater then the drag on the trailing edge but as the unit starts to move clockwise the drag initially becomes greater on the trailing edge and defeates the lift on the lead edge so the unit slips back again. at 3-4 MPH the unit weathervanes and rocks back and forth untill the wind speed increases to about 5-6 Mph at which point the lift on the lead edge is strong enough to defeat the drag on the trailing edge in the stall position and voila, off she goes spinning nicely. The action I just described told me I wasn't generating enough lift on the lead edge and it was likely due to seperation on the lead egde(see first diagram blue areas) because that's what cylinders do at low airspeeds so the fix was a device to impart some energy into the airflow hence the tripwire.


It's questionable what the overall benefit is but at startup it helps alot.


Without trip wire





With trip wire. Note the areas in blue and how the air follows the curvature of the cylinder




Mike

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 12:46:51 PM by rotornuts »

bob golding

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2005, 03:41:53 PM »
hi mike,

fasinating stuff cant wait to build one when i get back home. something about this says tesla turbine. i think  they work on laminar flow over a highly polished surface. dont know how practical it would be to keep the surface  highly polished,or how important it would be. also think it might be worth sacrificing the flaps and  maybe having  something like a small conventunal vawt on top  to start it, or a small motor to spool it, up just  brainstorming, this stuff is so much fun.


bob golding

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 03:41:53 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Norm

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2005, 06:19:12 PM »
    Oh...Wow! what a neat use for a bunch of

2 liter plastic pop bottles! The flaps could be

the labels.

    2 pop bottles, bottom ends hot glued together

makes a nice long cylinder....

    (trivia)...probably a little known fact that

the bottom ends mesh together!

    I'll just have to try it tomorrow!

    Just goofin' around too...but Hey...if it

works..   coffee cans....pop bottles...maple seeds....whatever huh ??

              Havin' fun in NE Ohio..tho'

           hot!       ( :>) Norm.

Was doing it like below ..but maybe your way will work better and simpler.    




« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:19:12 PM by Norm »

41south

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2005, 06:26:33 PM »
I have some left over 90mm (3.5") stormwater downpipe in the garage, I see a weekend project coming up :-)


Is there any particular ratio of height to diameter used here?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:26:33 PM by 41south »

41south

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2005, 06:41:49 PM »
Read and ye shall find.....


Answered my own question...."It's only 6.25" diameter by 13.5 high"


So I guess what I really need is the ratio of the cylinder sizes to the gap between them. Is the initial drawing to scale, if so I can work it all out from there?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:41:49 PM by 41south »

commanda

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2005, 09:13:48 PM »
Somebody tell me if I'm crazy or not.

What if you increased the number of cylinders to 3, and put the centre triangular section from the Lenz turbine in the middle?


Amanda

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:13:48 PM by commanda »

PHinker

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2005, 09:43:03 PM »
Read my mind




« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:43:03 PM by PHinker »

wooferhound

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2005, 10:05:17 PM »
Looks a lot like mine





I think yours would work better cause the ends are cupped.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 10:05:17 PM by wooferhound »

jimjjnn

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Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2005, 10:07:01 PM »
I really like the way you guys think. You are really coming up with good ideas . I think Vawts can be a useful machine in cities that won't allow the HAWTS. I only wish I were younger and had the space and income for these experiments to do these great things that you Ladies and Gentlemen are doing.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 10:07:01 PM by jimjjnn »