Use of homebrew alcohol in E85 production engines?

[Phil Timmons]

Something I have been wondering about is anyone's use of homebrew alcohol in E85 gasoline engines.   I am looking at home brewing alcohol from the waste heat in the steam condenser stage of a Solar Boiler electric generator.

(mho) Generally the approach for homebrewers seems to be older carb. engines, meaning non-production rebuilt equipment -- with lower highway safety standards, and older sensibility of fashion and style.  This may tend to keep the application in "fringe."

Mini-background:  E85 is 85% alcohol and 15% gasoline.  Current production engines exist with a special control chip to allow fuel use with straight gasoline or E85.  The use of these chips allow auto manufacturers to meet fuel and air quality goals for overall sales.  However, relatively little E85 is sold in the US.

mho, Alcohol fuels do not tend to economically competitive in the US due to costs in method(s) used to generate them.  Commercial fuel (typically Natural Gas) is consumed in the cooking and distilling, and huge motors and compressors are used in vacuum dehydration resulting in very high energy costs to create the alcohol.  (more mho) It appears these industrial approaches increase costs rather decreasing unit costs.  The cost issues are further compounded by the choice of base materials for fermentation.  Corn may turn out to be food and not fuel -- there are other base materials that have better cost optimization, such as potato scraps (vodka), algae -- anything that can ferment.

[bob g]

i am not familiar with the e85 engines or chips, perhaps you can elaborate on that.

i am with you on trying to produce alternatives for fossil fuels, and appreciate your diary opening.

the direction i am leaning toward is the single cylinder diesel running as a cogenerator(heat and power) running in the dual fuel mode (20% diesel, or biodiesel and the balance as wood gas or possibly alcohol)

with the availability of small watercooled diesels from china and india, the possibilities are good to be competitive with utility rates, and with the ability to run in dual fuel mode the rising cost of fuel stocks can be mitigated.

if one can produce the alcohol reasonably, and vaporize it, i dont see why it cannot be used as a dual fuel suppliment

bob g

[Phil Timmons]

I hit a quick search on E85, here are couple of good readable, informative links . . .

includes MUCH more detail, vehicles, etc., than I could do justice towards >>>

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_5a.html

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

As far as bio-diesel -- OH YEAH, gotten earfuls of that

This area (North and Central Texas) is Willy [Nelson] turf, and bio-diesel is the new religion with Rev. Willy speaking the truth from his bio-diesel touring bus.  I am mostly joking because I have sort of been slammed for making light of some of it.

Anyway, best source I know in that domain is our local "yahoogroups" RE group. NTREG@yahoogroups.com.  NTREG is North Texas Renewable Energy Group.  Are you familiar with how to sign up for yahoogroups?

There are guys in the group who are living it and loving Bio-diesel.  Creating grease runner trucks getting the waste oil/grease from all our Mexican Resturants (no joke -- but you can see where I would keep getting in trouble).  Anyway, sign up for the group, I think it takes a day or two and those guys can tell you as much or more than you hope for.

[Phil Timmons]

Well, started looking up details on homebrewing alcohol.

Of course, all this being full retro . . .  It is 1980 all over again.

Mother Earth News Seminar Series >>>

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh1.html

Really well written, practical information, and equipment details.

[Bruce S]

Hello Phil;

   I will add my pennies worth here.

I am no xpert on the stuff, but I have been making my own since before I was old enough to drink it not counting military time.

There is tones of data on the E85 vehicles, even the media here is getting into the act.

FACT: Homebrew will work perfect with E85 vehicles.

Here's way I know. E85 is as you said 85% Alky the rest low grade 87octane gas. I have a 1981 F100 straight 6 that's been using a blend of 60/40 . It is an older truck and is carb'd. Because of the carb and other older rubber based components on the truck, I stayed at  the higher level of gas.

We also have a 1991 Buick Regal that I've migrated to the Alky as well. Runs better now that it ever did.

There are no such rubber component problems on the newr vehicles, this based mostly on the car makers building most of the newer engines to run in South America where they run on even higher concentrations of Alky, Namely Brazil.

A couple things that ANYONE thinking if going this route is that while you've been running the FFV ( Stands for Flex Fuel Vehicle) there ahs been sludge building up at the bottom of the gas tank and a coating of shellac on the fuel lines. Once the process of using E85 begins there will be a cleaning out period. This is the time that the ALky starts to clean out the sludge and shellac. You should have on hand a couple of the better grade fuel filters that are put inline in the lines. These will capture the crud that is being cleaned out by the Alky.

You made a vey good fact about the cost of producing Alky within the current enviroment. This is due in large part that many were taught that Alky had to be made out of the best crops and they had to use corn.

Not so as many countires have found, Ethopia has found that if they use the cast-off sorgoum and have the black-market make the Alky and run it for fuel it works just perfect, and only costs on average 25cents to make.

I have a cute little unit that doesn't use any of the methods as stated above and the costs are as of my last calcs right at $1.80/gal.and I'm getting bummed as my heater broke and I'm down to my last 5 gals.

I make use of a fish heater that runs on a small UPS that was being discarded at work, replaced the internal battery with posts so I could attach batts and extend the off-grid run time, added a small PV and that's it.

Nothin to lose is currently making his out of cast off fruit stuff and he got it for free which trumps my $1.80/gal.

Sorry this was a bit long but it can and is being done.

Bruce S

[bob g]

hi Bruce:

got a couple of questions

it is my understanding that to run straight alcohol (assuming no mechanical limitations) that all one needs is around 160 proof alcohol. And that the need for higher proof (~200) is needed to get it to blend at the 85% level with gas. Also it is reported that getting to 160 proof is a fraction of the cost of trying to distill to the 200 proof.

am i on track with this thinking?

next question:

if one was to use a grain such as corn, could the corn be run thru a press to extract the oil and still have a suitable stock to ferment and make alcohol? The oil shouldn't be a component that is needed in the fermenation process, right?

next question:

what are your yields? not sure how to frame the question, but how much alcohol can one get out of say a hundred pounds of corn? or another stock?

last question:

if it could be done, that is press the grain for oil, then make alcohol out of the cake, could the remainder or residue (mash) still be used as a feed stock suppliment for a cow or hog?

which i guess if you take the waste from the animal one could get methane from a digester?

lots of steps, but seems like there is quite a lot of potential from a hundred pounds of grain.

what do you think

bob g

[Phil Timmons]

Hey Bruce, I was hoping to catch you in this conversation . . .

For Bob -

got a couple of questions

it is my understanding that to run straight alcohol (assuming no mechanical limitations) that all one needs is around 160 proof alcohol. And that the need for higher proof (~200) is needed to get it to blend at the 85% level with gas. Also it is reported that getting to 160 proof is a fraction of the cost of trying to distill to the 200 proof.

am i on track with this thinking?

Phil:

Ideally for gasoline mixes the alcohol would be 97% (190 proof) because water mixes with alky, and alky mixes with gas ~ but water and gas do not mix.  At the 190 proof range, the alky holds onto the remaining water in the alky gas mix.  (all covered in the Mother Earth News document).  And yes, you can run straight lower grade alcohol in some engines, but I do not know of any current production engines.  And it seems almost impossible, or at least impractical to create 200 proof (or 100%) alcohol.  It hangs on to that little bit of water.

next question:

if one was to use a grain such as corn, could the corn be run thru a press to extract the oil and still have a suitable stock to ferment and make alcohol? The oil shouldn't be a component that is needed in the fermenation process, right?

Phil:

The Mother Earth News doc, has complete details about grinding, prep, cooking, and fermenting (as well as still manufactuering and use)

next question:

what are your yields? not sure how to frame the question, but how much alcohol can one get out of say a hundred pounds of corn? or another stock?

Phil:

Typical units of grain are bushels - about 60 lbs.

Typical alky outputs of any grain are about 2.5 gals per bushel.

So with Corn at $2.50 a bushel, it is preferred over Wheat at $4.00 a bushel.

There are other sources that give better alky yield to cost ratios than grains.

Again, all covered in the Mother Earth News doc

last question:

if it could be done, that is press the grain for oil, then make alcohol out of the cake, could the remainder or residue (mash) still be used as a feed stock suppliment for a cow or hog?

which i guess if you take the waste from the animal one could get methane from a digester?

lots of steps, but seems like there is quite a lot of potential from a hundred pounds of grain.

what do you think

Phil:

One of the best uses seem to be the starting stock for next batch.  As well as animal feed, etc. and guess what?  . . . . Again, all covered in the Mother Earth News doc.  

Well sorry to beat the Mother Earth News document to death, but it is REALLY GOOD.

[bob g]

thanks Phil, i will do some more reading of the mother doc.

i was thinking of the 160 proof as a dual fuel application in a diesel engine.

gives me some idea's, likely more questions

bob g

[Bruce S]

Hello Bob g;

 Correct about the 160 / 200 proof. I use the 160 to mix with 87octane for the vehicles and keep the 200 proof.

Here's why. of a 5 gal run I may after running the 160 proof through a seperation get only about 4 quarts of 200P not a good return, but will get gals of 160 on the first run, this is perfect stuff for the tank. The little known fact about 200 proof is that it doesn't like to mix with gas. There's a chemical reaction going, on that my father-in-law explained, that makes them split. Something about no having enough available oxygen down at the metabloic level. Most refineries run a mix of 160-180 proof.

Your right on track!! I can get 160 in 1 run, I need a 2nd run to extract the 200 proof from this. extra energy used, extra cost...

I don't use corn, so I'll answer this part from memory. Corn has several ways of getting the stuff from it.

We've used several.

The idea of extracting the oil first is an interesting one, but I would tend to believe make the cost high again. Corn oil is made using an extraction method that leaves a whole lot of bulk matter that could be used to feed animals , or, used in a digester , or, you could even put all the left over bulk into a cooker and then add yeast and a little food for the yeast to convert as much of the bulk from a strach to a sugar that would then convert to Alky. ummm interesting idea.

Nothin To Lose has a bunch more knowledge about digesters than I do, I think he bulit one awhile back.

It would be a good use of the leftovers. Feed all you can the pigs and cows, use the rest in a digester along with the by-product of feeding the animals, then use the gas to in due time to cook the mash.

Very nice neat circle.

One thing is to make sure and if putting up numbers for everyone to see is to include all costs even the sunshine costs, may sound a little nuts but the stuff to make the cookers and the labor is where conversation end up when oposition starts to head when they beign to lose a debate.

Even if mine costs more than gas I will continue to make/use if for no other reason than the internal cleanliness of my vehicles nad knowing I am helping even just a little bit to slow down the consumption of fossil fuels.

 My biggest step was in the planning. Once I stepped back and looked at this age old stuff. I then did a systematic plan of what to do with all the stuff. This seems to be what you are doing and the list looks sound.

Hope this long winded answer helps;

Bruce S

 

[Bruce S]

Phil;

 You bet!! great article, and it has the thingy (Saccorometer) that I couldn't remember what it was called for testing sugar content. Only difference is that I tend to run my sugar content up above theirs.

I by pass the starch by going directly to using sugar materials.

I don't use the normal still per se, can't neighbors would have me locked up for making the area ugly.

I have used mine tested on first run at 160 proof with no problems as a 60/40 mix, however I do check to make sure that the two are mixing.

I have gobble up all the Mother's possible, was even a memeber for quite some time, they've got too many commercials now, but the old ones are gold.

Very very correct about the problem of having 200 proof, as soon as you open it , it starts suckng air, I keep mine in the freezers.

The more info we can give someone the better.

Cheers!

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Bob g

   If you are thinking of adding the Alky to diesel , DO NOT!!

Diesel enignes are much less forgiving than gas.

Bio-diesel would be the way to go for diesel based engines.

Was that the reason for asking about the Corn oil? if so Corn oil is a very good canidate for bio-diesel.

Bruce S

[nothing to lose]

"I have gobble up all the Mother's possible, was even a memeber for quite some time, they've got too many commercials now, but the old ones are gold."

I agree there. I have many old ones including issue #2

Never got to see the first one. I grab all the old ones I find, seldom bother with the newer ones anymore though. To many adds not enough info and rehashing some old projects from earlier issues too as I recall last I looked at them. I think for awhile they got too much into trying to sell plans and not enough into providing info maybe?

[bob g]

Bruce:

yes i was talking of using it in a diesel engine, not something new, and it is being done.

the idea is not to mix it with the diesel, but rather implement it thru carburation as in a gasoline engine, and use the diesel as the pilot fuel ie. dual fuel operation.

i understand that mixing and injecting it with the diesel fuel would not be a good plan.

hard on pumps, injectors etc. even if one could get it to mix at high percentages.

and i am with you on the idea of doing it even if diesel and gasoline is cheaper, my idea is to become as independant as possible.

call me wierd, or whatever, not antigovernment so to speak, but rather would like to see how independant one could be.

sure the labor costs are high, but if one is independant one has presumably more spare time anyway.

also when you consider the true cost of diesel or gas, (for instance say $2.50 per gallon) this isn't the true cost of that fuel. Rather one should look at how much you have to make and all the related costs to make enuf to purchase the fuel at $2.50 per gallon. Factoring in withholding taxes, social security, transportation costs to and from the job, the true costs are likely over $3.00 per gallon. Perhaps somewhat more.

for instance to have @2.50 to spend i would have to pay with holding tax of say 20% or $0.50, plus both halves of social security as i am self employed (another %16 percent)or

another $0.40 and then add vehicle expence and fuel to and from work, maybe another $0.05 and the total comes nearer to $3.45 per gallon.

now if i am independant and have the time i should be able to produce fuel competitively with those figures at home, and if the price of fuel at the pump goes up, well you see where this is going.

i guess without having you and others to discuss the possibilities with it makes it difficult to think thru.

very curious indeed

bob g

[Phil Timmons]

Hey bob,

Let's set the enomonics aside for a minute . . . I like them, but split topics in one post actually confuse me.

On the techincal end, are you saying you would like to use alky fuel carberated through the air intake to a diesel engine?  Is that what I am understanding you saying?  Would you have to use some sort of timing and spark plug arrangement for that?

And the second part of it . . .  does this happen at the same time the diesel portion of the engine is functioning, or is this a logical Exclusive Or?  As in the engine operates in Diesel/Injection mode OR Alky/Carb mode but never concurrently (or both at the same time)?  I am not clear on this.  Am I understanding what you are saying correctly?

[Bruce S]

bob;

  A little curious about how you would control the intake part of the Alky.

I can understand injecting it into the air intake for added oxygen but other than that, of all the different diesel engines I worked on I have yet to see such a setup.

Most of the bigger ones have turbo chargers on them and this added fuel going through the intake side would only get vaporized by the extensive heat and since this is a water vapor carrying fuel it could possibly cause rust problems to the delicate internal metal fins of the intake impeller.

If you have some pics or design details please send them. I've worked on everything from 3cyl 56 Hp units to V16 giants on those behemoths you see on the tele in Iraq ( they BTW average 3 miles/gal).

You could use the mechanical timing from the diesel injectors but then you would need a very complicated mechanism to shut down the diesel and automatically switch over to Alky if you bypassed using the air intake path. Do able , but if you get just a little off....

Perhaps you could make use of the Alky for cookers to turn used oil into bio-diesel?

Bruce S

 

[bob g]

Phil and Bruce:

let me first say i am in reference to a small bore single cylinder diesel as a genset, running at constant speed and near constant loading.

i too have been a diesel tech for many years now, over 30, from everything  to small diesels to 12v149 detroits (the monsters i love)

what i am in reference to is dual fuel operation, whereas the intake air is charged with natural gas, methane, propane and alcohol.

such an engine running in dual fuel mode, runs on both diesel and the other gas at the same time.

as the alternate gas enters the air stream the engine wants to raise in rpm, but the diesel govenor tapers back the diesel fuel to control the rpm, within limits of course.

most dual fuel engines in industry only get to around a 90/10 offset whereas there is still some diesel being injected as a pilot to initiate ignition. Without the pilot fuel (diesel) the high octane rating of the alternate fuel will not fire in a compression engine.

one of the biggest problems using this scheme on large multi cylinder engines are, timing control (need more advance running alternate fuel to gain lost power), the intake manifold not designed to be a wet manifold causing unequal distribution, and knock.

using a single cylinder engine, distibution problems are not of concern, or of small concern.

knock that plaques large bore engine's becomes less of a problem with smaller bores, the same as small high compression gas engines, big blocks engines are more finicky about high compression ratio's than their baby brothers.

a word on knock, basically what i am in reference to is, when the diesel is injected it fires, then it ignites the alternate fuel, if the engine has a large bore, you have colliding flame fronts causing a secondary knock. the smaller the bore the closer this occures. also this phenomena happens more readily at low or part loading.

the only remaining problem is one of advanceing the timing on a small fixed timeing single cylinder, this one is a difficult to alter problem. So i guess i will have to deal with some loss of power in dual fuel mode.

please see the following

http://www.saeindia.org/saeconference/ethanolreview.htm

http://www.vtt.fi/virtual/amf/annex-iii.html

http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/heavy_vehicle/ddc6v92ta.html

there is alot of testing and operation of diesel engines in dual fuel mode.

please see the following

http://www.energyconversions.com/products.htm

http://www.cleanairpower.com/technology/df_howitworks.html

http://pepei.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=235219&VERSIO
N_NUM=3&p=6

if you do a google search on dual fuel diesels and add alcohol there are alot of references to it being done.

don't get me wrong here, i don't think it is an easily done thing, but..

the small bore single cylinder engines can take alot more abuse than their big brothers, basically because of their simplicity.

not sure i am going to do it, but i am researching the idea.

bob g

[Bruce S]

BoB;

   Didn't mean to offend.

Your are very correct about the single cylinder units. Was more focused on the multi cyl jobbers; my bad.

If it's high octane Alky your wanting to try this with I would be glad to help you as much as possible, I now more than a little interested in the vapor possibilites on the intake side.

Bruce S

[Phil Timmons]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for that detailed explanation.

I really enjoy this place because I learn something new almost everytime I stop in.

That is some very unusual thinking for my (limited) knowledge of engines.

I would have been "conditioned" to think exactly opposite of that.  I recall back when I was doing weapon-type stuff we looked at doing some wide area "tank-killers" with Fuel-Air mixtures that would be sucked into Tank Diesel engines and kill them.  

btw, thanks to Mrs. Phil, I have been re-tooled into only peaceful purposes.  She is sort of like living with Jesus and Gandhi.  Says if I do weapons, I just cannot spend any money from that on her or the kids . . . so, wtf.  And actually, the folks in these domains, while we may all be a little bit "off," are so much more friendly and kinder than in weapons world.

Anyway all that philosophy stuff aside, that seems like creative thinking.  I will ponder through the links and let you know if I see any aspect that I can add to for you, I will post it.

Have you considered multi-fuel turbine engines?  There are some guys in far North Michigan that are doing simple homebuilt "Tesla" (yeah, I know) turbines.  Those should run on ANYTHING -- diesel, alcohol, waste oil, wood/wood gas.  Even steam.  

[Bruce S]

Phil;

  Off topic just a bit.

We're no off we're just out of phase

Just a bit more... you are dead on about the forum, the past is the past, now we're all about ruling the world one genny at a time:-)))

Cheers

Bruce S

BTW: The tesla would actually pass here as it doesn't pretend to be OU device , just another way to convert power from one type to another.

Telsa was big on calling fraud --fraud.

Bob:

 There does seem to be a whole lot of data on the use of propane, Alky and now even H2 as vapors, to increase the octane level of diesel and then cut back on the amount of diesel fuel while holding or increasing the vapor fuels for an even cleaner exhaust and extending the fuel range.

[bob g]

Bruce, please understand no offence was taken,

i really like the spirited debate and dialog when it comes to these subjects.

i appreciate you and phil for taking the time to enter into the debate, and offer idea's, thoughts, research, and experience.

i realize sometimes typing can come across different than the meaning, i hope i didnt come off as though i was defensive or being crude.

sometimes our discussions catch the attention of certain experts in the field, and ellicit responces from them.

i figure the more discussion the better the chance of getting more information brought forward that might help each of us, and maybe add to the collective knowlege base of the board.

great subject huh?

bob g

[Phil Timmons]

Ok, time for an update . . . .

Stopped by the Ford House yesterday.  What dolts.

Cannot get an E85 engine in any serious truck.  Rangerette, only.

I was thinking F250.

And from what I read there is either no, or at least no authorized (by the EPA) after-market conversion.  

Did read some more info on the E85 vehicles -- A better description would be Flexible Fuel Vehicle [FFV].  They can run on any mix of Gasoline and Alcohol.  From "E0" (straight gas) to "E100" (100% Alcohol).  The big differences are a fuel sensor that detects the Oxygen level in the fuel; teflon lined fuel lines; and stainless steel tanks (for corrosion prevention -- alcohol has much higher Oxygen level).  The reason for keeping gas in the mix is for easy startup in cold weather.  That may apply to about 2 to 3 months here in Texas.

A pretty decent FAQ >>>

http://www.ksda.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=430&mid=2779&ctl=Download&method=attachment&E
ntryId=510

This FAQ says that additional cost to manufacture a FFV is about $200.

Canadian websites (that say that after-market conversions do exist) cite conversion costs of $3500 to $4500.  I assume that is Canadian Dollar currency.

Can you believe the retard auto manufacturers do not have this as an option in any serious truck?  I think I read Chevy has a 1/2 ton Silverado FFV / E85 vehicle.  Really was thinking I should get at least a 3/4 ton.  Guess I will stop by the Chevy House, next.  I really did not want to have to build my own truck, when there are supposed to be (moron) companies that do that.

[fishfarm]

According to this website, a 2006 model Ford F-150 FFV will be available in December 2005.

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

[Phil Timmons]

Well, fishfarm (interesting name, btw) you are correct.  

Thank you.

Actually I had looked at that page and saw the pix of an F150 at the top, but I am pretty sure I did not see it on the list, and was annoyed -- that was what got me to stop at the Ford House to start with.  

And can you believe the Truck Fleet Department Manager was the one that told me that it did not exist and there were no plans for one.  (I asked about three different ways -- habit of doing design reviews with customers).  The regular salesman did not even know what I was asking about.

The Truck Manager said Ford only wandered into E85 for Clean Air issues.  

I said, "Cheap Fuel."

He said, "Clean Air."

As that fat dumb turd sat there smoking a cigar.  Figures.

[Bruce S]

Bob G-

   No problem.

This is a great TOPIC! After reading about those two diesel engines you have I'm getting real interested. I am in the city so noise abatement is a biggie here.

I forgot all about the E85.com website.

My truck isn't on the list (1981) but runs perfect on E60, and really runs without too much complaining if I use 87octane now. I'd love to pull the head and take pictures, but with gas hitting 3.19/gal....

I have recentlly started to go heavy on the Alky use on the car and sure wish I'd done it a lot sooner. Runs like it's on Premium now. I did change out the inline fuel filter under the car to one under hood and with a clear window so I can quickly tell if the sludge has it clogged , but so far only a little brown. I get kept it at E50 for now.

With the way things are going this topic is quite timely.

Cheers

Bruce S