Author Topic: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (Read 11793 times)

MountainMan · « **on:** November 20, 2005, 07:21:53 PM »

...basically I'm going to want to wind up with a small wind farm on my property to supply the bulk of my off-grid power needs for an eventual large house/woodworking shop/mechanical shop. Going to need lots of power, and what I have learned so far makes it pretty apparent that I'm not going to get there with one big mill.

So, I'm figuring that I will scale up the design just to a point where it is still practical and easy to build - maybe around 8 feet by 8 feet...and then make a whole mess of them.

To that end, I want to choose parts for my design that are reasonably priced, but probably purchased new rather than scavenged from a junkyard, so I can easily go into limited production with the design.

One piece that I do plan to scavenge is used 14 inch sawblades for the back of the rotor. (probably a single rotor design) Hoping that this is a large enough rotor diameter to obviate the need of dual rotor.

I would like to invite some comment on motorcycle or automotive wheel bearing assemblies that can be purchased new from an autoparts store that might be apropriate for such an undertaking. I'm thinking this will be the primary "bought new" part of the assembly.

Need something that will handle maybe 100 pounds of VAWT sitting on top of it rotating a few hundred times per minute pretty much non-stop for many years. Is this too much for a motorcycle bearing to handle? If a motorcyle bearing is appropriate, please make recommendations on the specs and make/model etc.

If I need to go to a small car wheel bearing, and remembering you are talking to a software/electronics/photography nut, not a "wrench", what would you call the whole assembly I would need to buy to make a practical start at putting together the base of a VAWT? What are the individual pieces of that assembly called in official "car talk".

Also somebody mentioned a trailer hub in a recent post. I suppose this is also a candidate. Is it cheaper than the equivalent car parts, and is it easily obtainable from an auto parts store?

Another point to consider is that we are talking about a VAWT, where the alternator will be part of the base of the unit. Ideally, I'm thinking I would want something that...

can easily be mounted to a solid flat base of some sort
provides an attachment surface for the non-rotating stator just above that
provides for a rotating hub/arbor of some sort coming out of the middle of that which could easily be attached to the flat surface of the stator (14" saw blade)

A pre-made assembly that lends itself to that sort of a finished arangement with the minimum of additional home-made parts or re-milling, etc. would be preferred.

If it is basically just a wheel-hub assembly with the bearings hidden inside the hub, then the total outside diameter of the hub would need to be less than 9 inches, as I will be using 2 inch long magnets on my 14 inch rotor, meaning the active part of the stator could be a 15 inch disk, with radially arranged 3 inch coils (including the non-active end parts of the oval shaped coils) leaving room for an almost 9 inch hub to come up through the middle.

This seems like a simpler and sturdier arrangement than the alternative of having the hub spining beneath the stator, with a smaller diameter "axle" of some sort attached to the hub and coming up through the stator. That's why I'm hoping to find something with a smallish hub.

thanks,

jp

willib · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2005, 01:19:54 AM »

Why go Vawt , you havnt explained why?

No room , dont want to fly HAWTs ?

I have been into Vawts since i saw Ed's vawt on his site http://www.windstuffnow.com

but the problem with Vawts is the drag associated with the part that is not catching the wind ,been there done that..

i even built something very similar to Ed's machine along with the offset to keep the blades position pointing into the wind.. very complicated..i must admit it worked very well though..

how are you going to support these at the top?

it just seems to me that the propeller design is the way to go thats all.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2005, 06:52:07 AM »

mt.man, your asking for a final design that won't change , but most things like this evolve. 8x8 is kind of big for your first one, but if i had a blank sheet in front of me, here's what i'd do .

buy a heavy duty trailer hub

take it to a custom machine shop , tell them what you are going to do ,have them add an 8' pipe as an axel

on the axel beneath the hub have them weld up a + from stout angle iron to support your stator.

get them to form a tripod type support for the axel

get them to cut two rotors 24" in dia.with center hole and mounting holes

go to the bank get a second mortgae to but the magnets

dig a big hole in your yard.

you get the picture!

IntegEner · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2005, 08:06:58 AM »

On a positive note, seeing that you are in CA, why don't you ask for a copy of our proposal to the CEC under the standard EISG grant program and get with the "system" rather than going it on your own? Here is a "repeatable" offer on this:

"Hello. This is a standard note sent to others as well. A grant proposal was recently submitted to a state agency (the CEC in California) which included information about various wind turbine blade designs. In a competitive marketplace sometimes ideas that have merit can be especially welcome. A brief sketch of some of what is discussed within it can be found by a review of the website pages at www.integener.com.

"Upon request, it may be possible to send a copy of the 20 or so page grant proposal for more detailed information. What is of interest here is whether you would wish to support this work on an in-kind basis, technological advancements being possible."

Anthony Chessick

IntegEner-W

Tehachapi, CA

www.integener.com

windstuffnow · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2005, 09:02:18 AM »

Just a note: I don't mind if you build the Lenz turbine for fun, power production or any other power need as long as its for your own personal use, as well, I encourage it. If, however, you plan to manufacture and sell them then we should talk. There is a patent pending for the unit which is in progress.

.

MountainMan · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2005, 12:34:11 PM »

Hi Ed,

No plan of any sort of income from this venture. My 8.5 acres is off-grid, and connecting to grid would cost as much as building a very substantial RE system...so that's what I'm planning.

The only reason I want to build a repeatable design is that I will need several of them to supply all the power I will need.

I'm all for conservation when talking about burning fossil fuels to make power, but when I'm looking at all of my power being from "free" sources that don't pollute, I say the heck with conservation, just build more RE.

I'm only planning to build about 5 of them for my own private use here on the mountain.

best,

jp

MountainMan · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2005, 12:43:24 PM »

willib,

My choice to go VAWT is based on a personal opinion not shared by the majority of the folks here. I find wind mills to be somewhat hideous. What they do is great, how they look, not so much.

For me, the lack of esthetics reaches a much higher order of magnitude when they are up on a tall tower. I'm pretty sure my distant neighbors would share that sentiment if I were to put up a tower right in the middle of their view.

In my location, there is plenty of good consistent wind right at the ground, as it rises up the western face of the mountain, right at me. It is no-doubt turbulent air that close to the ground. My understanding is that VAWTs deal with that better than HAWTs.

I also like the tendency toward less noise from VAWTs (due I guess mainly to the slower rotational speeds).

There are places on my property where I can place a row of medium sized VAWT's and have them get lots of wind, but be virtually invisible from the inhabited part of my land and not blocking anyone's view.

So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

best,

jp

MountainMan · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2005, 12:52:16 PM »

Can anybody out there provide me with some insight into the types and sizes of pre-manufactured bearing/hub units out there? I need to learn about what the various parts are called and their sizes and which parts of the assembly are purchasable at local car parts distributors.

thanks,

jp

willib · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2005, 01:01:06 PM »

lol , fair enough.

willib · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2005, 01:11:49 PM »

some ppl on this site use a trailer hub & spindle assembly , this should work for your purpose.

If you go this route , JC whitney sells trailer hub & spindle assemblies for $36

but they dont show a pic of the spindle??

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Browse/tf-Browse/s-10101/showCustom-0/refId-600002440/N-111+10201
+600002440/c-10101

kitno455 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2005, 03:11:17 PM »

mt-

thread with pics:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/9/7/155628/5777

and my diary:

http://www.fieldlines.com/user/kitno455/diary

allan

MountainMan · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2005, 04:36:14 PM »

Hi Alan,

What a coincidence. While you were posting this, I was at AutoZone buying one that looks identicall. Did you wind up using this type, or did you bow to the pressure of the Audi or Caddilac crew?

A cute girl at the store helped me open a whole mess of boxes looking for one like this that had bolt holes on both "ends" of the bearings. Since my application is Vertical, I don't think I need to worry about any of it walking anywhere (fingers crossed).

Do you happen to know what type of a car it is from? We weren't able to cross reference it back to a car from the aftermarket numbers on the box.

thanks,

jp

motorhead2 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2005, 05:09:13 PM »

Ed.I would like to patent my modified hbar when I get all the components in place.How hard and expensive is this?Thank you for your help.If your building a 8x8 dont try putting a axial flux underneath it.You must separate the gen from the shaft because these things that big have a temper.So do kids you just spank em and move on.

windstuffnow · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2005, 07:32:26 PM »

Motorhead, So far my experiences aren't what I would call fun. It's s dragged out slow and rediculous process. I bought a book and read about it somewhat ( check amazon.com ) If you use a patent attorney it will most likely cost you 3k or more. A patent search will cost around 475.00 or so, expensive but it's a first step you need to take. If you try to patent with out a search you may be rejected. If you do the search and find it is a patentable idea then you can follow through on the rest. There are other companies out there that will do the work for you for less cost but there is some fine print you should consider if you decide to go that route. They will do a search, patent it, and sell the idea to a manufacture. You will in turn get 15% of what ever they sell but you will inturn also have to pay the company 6% of your earnings. Royalties have their place, depending on your expectations, if they were selling hundreds of your product a week then you could make a reasonable amount of money without having to build the product yourself. On the otherhand, if you have a marketable product and can manufacture it yourself then you would make a considerable amount more. So there are headaches on either end, just depends on what you want from your device. I figure If I manufacture them and only sell a few a week then I'll still make more than what the royalties amount to. A lot to consider...

.

wind4Reg · « **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2005, 05:36:48 AM »

Hey MountainMan, you might want to take a look at the front hub/bearing assembly from a Chevy Cavalier or a Pontiac Sunfire. Since these are front wheel drive and the hub and bearing is together in one unit and it provides a mounting point on the hub and has the bearing, plus it is splined already for the axle shaft/CV shaft. That means you don't have to do any welding to the hub assembly itself like you would have to on a trailer hub. This keeps the heat away from the bearing. I am planning on using this setup on my own VAWT. If the Sunfire hub doesn't look strong enough for the size of your turbine then go with one from a 4x4 truck. Best of luck with your project and let us know how it goes.

Reg.

IntegEner · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2005, 08:14:48 AM »

Here is a photo of some windmills sold at a garden nursery here up in our mountains up on the high desert in heights from 8' to 20' on their wood towers. The public rules on esthetics and it is the 20 footers that sold out. IntegEner-W purchased one of the 15 foot towers sans rotor for mounting a different rotor and an energy producing unit on it and it has been located next to an industrial complex at our glider airport here. Even the whole group of them together in the photo is attractive.

You appear to be taking on a much bigger project than what it may seem to you to be and are neglecting some worthwhile ideas. My suggestion at this point is to buy a pocket wind meter like the Kestrel 1000, to be found on eBay, and tell us exactly what you find your "consistent" wind to be. It will give you a much better idea of what height you need and get you better support from others who have "been there".

Knucks

IntegEner-W

www.integener.com

electrondady1 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2005, 08:20:06 AM »

just a small addition to ed's patent info. i studied industrial design back in school and did patent searches for various projects as part of the learning process. if i recall correctly,patents need to be renewed every five or seven years to be viable.also, one must be prepared to defend your patent against unauthorised use.going into production , even in a modest way, would do a lot to establish you as the original creator.

all i'm saying is getting a patent is not like winning the lotery.there are some very large fish out there that are prepared to copy a design exactly and then fight it out in court for several decades.

kitno455 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:59:48 AM »

the first thread was not mine, i just commented on it, so i dont know what car that was. you nead to read my thread pretty carefully though, but i will re-state it here, for posterity:

If you use an auto-derived hub that has a splined hole thru it for the outer CV, you simply MUST put something similar in the hole, with big washers on both ends. these joints are a simple press-fit (though admittedly a tight one), and will come apart under load. VAWT application is likely worse than hawt, due to the mechanical advantage they have over the bearing.

i used chevy s-10 4x4 front hubs in my experimental mill. it was only up on a short pole for a few days, however, so i cant give long term test results. I have used the same hub on cars for quite a few years, and have had no major problems. the 1990 and up full-size GM 4x4's use IFS, and are usually 6-bolt wheel flange. if i ever build a larger prop, that is what i would use.

allan

hvirtane · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2005, 12:02:26 PM »

I think that your idea

is a good one.

You might build a couple

of prototypes of the wind

machines first. You might

make a 'Lenz2' turbine prototype

and a 'Picoturbine' prototype.

I think that you will

get a reasonable amount

of power from those machines.

In principle the efficiency

of Savonius turbines is

about 30% - 35% if you'll

use a correct shape.

Ed's Lenz2 might be even better.

We started to make a prototype

of 'Picoturbine 250' some

time ago, but the project

has not been finished yet.

I've myself planning for

a bit different VAWT,

but a working prototype

hasn't been made,

I've only made of

a plastic tube a model

to check out, how

easy it is to make

the correct shape.

In Europe car wheel hubs

are cheap as second hand.

Also new bearing sets

are cheap, for example

for Mercedes only 15 euro.

So I think that that a

car wheel hub is

a good way to make

the bearing.

- Hannu

motorhead2 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2005, 03:58:10 PM »

mt.man One luxury with vawt is that you can have the gen on the ground or in the basement where you can tinker with it.I welded a fan hub to the rotor and keyed the shaft.Then put 2 pillow bearings about a ft apart up there.One day I clamped the shaft so it wouldnt spin.Came home from work and it was spinning.I forgot to put the key in the shaft.Metal on metal ouch.

windstuffnow · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2005, 04:26:10 PM »

The Pico turbine has a blade efficiency of around 18%. I built one of their "Pico250" many years back. It flew for about 4 years before I finally took it down ( still have it actually). The savonius is pretty poor for collecting electrical energy. I personally wouldnt build another one. It did make 250 watts at one point but it took a 40 mph wind to do it. The Lenz turbine ( 3ft x 4ft) will do 300 watts in a 32 mph wind with an inefficient alternator. Sorry if I seem a bit bias but it works very well and I'm quite proud of the machine. 3+ years tinkering with it, adapting changes, lots of thought, and many days(months) of frustration as well as a multitude of notebooks with calculations and designs... persistance won...

.

motorhead2 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2005, 05:18:29 PM »

I think we should start a company together.Vawts are the only way for residential power.Were starting to see more interest already.Have fun and keep thinking.

MountainMan · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2005, 02:33:44 PM »

kitno,

It seems I just don't get it yet.

Looking at the hub shown in this post:

hub like the one I bought

If I were to use the bolt holes on one end of the assembly to bolt the thing down to a base of some sort, and use the bolt holes on the other end of the assembly to bolt on some sort of a bottom plate for the VAWT/alternator rotor, then all of the weight of the VAWT would be pushing down on the hub assembly, ostensibly holding it together.

In such a use, you would still expect it to come apart?

thanks,

jp

motorhead2 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2005, 03:23:06 PM »

Mtn man Maybe you should start with a small one first.Dont go 8x8 yet.How many blades are you planning to use?These are a different animal.

hvirtane · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:04:00 PM »

Hell Ed,

'Picoturbine' you built sounds

too bad. Maybe the match

of the generator with the

turbine wasn't very good?

But you Lenz turbine

sounds really good.

It seems to to have

a big future.

I hope that you will soon

build even bigger

examples of that.

- Hannu

windstuffnow · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:24:33 PM »

Hi Hannu,

I have plans to build a larger one from some items I have laying around to see what kind of problems I run into. The materials I have are 3 large shipping drums which will work for a turbine about 6ft tall and 10ft in diameter. I'm not real happy with the idea of only 6ft tall but maybe I'll come up with something before I start building it. It has to be one of those "low budget" projects once again which should prove to be quite interesting.

The date and time is set for the Pro wind tunnel testing... Monday of next week at 10:30 am. I'm looking forward to playing with the Pro's and finding out the actual wing efficiency of the turbine. I have several idea's for improvements that I've been working towards but I want to know the actual output of the original with the exception of the minor improvements already in place.

.

kitno455 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2005, 08:16:26 PM »

yes. think of it this way, not only is gravity pushing down on the bearing, the wind is pushing sideways along the whole of the vawt. that is acting like a big lever, trying to pop the center right out of the joint.

remember, any mill makes power by slowing the wind, the bigger the mill, the more force it has to withstand. these bearings are quite strong, but they require this bolt in tension to hold them together against the kind of forces you will see with anything over a couple feet square. do NOT rely on the press-fit alone.

allan

MountainMan · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2005, 08:30:52 AM »

Thanks to all who have commented so far.

It looks like I'm going to be taking back the hub assembly I bought this week. They had another one that had bolt holes for both the hub and the spindle, and no center shaft area. Completely sealed. I'm going to assume it does not suffer from the problem kitno mentioned with the first hub I bought. Main down side is that it costs $40 more than this one. No big deal. Seems a bit heavier duty than what I really would need.

Would still like to find a line on bought-new trailer hub/spindle assemblies. Other than online (where I can't play touchy feely with it and decide if I like it) any suggestions on where one might go shopping for something like this? The auto parts store people just kind of cocked their heads to one side and stood there with a dumb look on their face when I mentioned trailer hubs.

thanks,

jp

IntegEner · « **Reply #28 on:** November 24, 2005, 09:42:23 AM »

Perhaps worth mentioning is that these wooden towers can be made available fairly inexpensively without the "farm style" rotors on them and in various heights as seen in the pic. We have obtained one that is 15' tall as seen in the below images for testing, in anticipation of the possible program, out at the Mountain Meadows field with its plentiful wind. The legs are secured with 3' long lengths of steel rebar driven deep into the hard ground.

AVC

www.integener.com

electrondady1 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 24, 2005, 10:35:09 AM »

i could give you a few stores up here in canada mt. man. but it wouldn't do you much good down there in california. the one ive got in my vise right now is man ufactured by a company called dexter model 8-91A

what about hone depoe?

kitno455 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 24, 2005, 08:19:30 PM »

go to salvage yard and look around. find something that looks workable, and then go buy one new. most likely candidates are the rear hubs from any heavier front wheel drive vehicle, like a full-size gm from the 90's (buick lesabre/park ave, pontiac bonneville, caddy, etc) or a minivan. those should not have the splined drive hole.

allan

RP · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2005, 10:07:24 PM »

Find a farm supply type hardware store. TSC, Orscheln, etc. I don't know what you have in your area but I'm sure there's something like these.

These carry all kinds of parts for making and reparing trailers, etc.

MountainMan · « **Reply #32 on:** November 25, 2005, 03:09:59 PM »

Well, on kitno's advice I took back the first one with the splined center hole. Not knowing of any junk yards in the area with a clerk as cute as "Star" at AutoZone, I decided to get the other one they had there. This is what the new hub looks like.

Who knew that clerk cuteness would become a relevant engineering criteria.

If anyone knows a reason why this won't work well for a VAWT, please speak now or wait and laugh later when it doesn't work.

thanks,

jp

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Author Topic: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (Read 11793 times)