so much for that idea..

[maxoutput]

I sent a e-mail to my township and asked what i need to do to get a permit for a windgenny heres what they told me,

   We would first ask that you provide a plot plan showing the proposed

 location of the turbine and all other structures on the property. This

 plot plan must include the dimension of each structure and accrate

 distances from each item to the adjacent property lines. With this plan

 you must also provide a building permit application which shall include

 the structural designed drawings approved by an engineer licensed on the

 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. These detailes must reference that the

 structure, as designed, can withstand both a 90 mph. wind load and a

 minimum of 30 lb. snow loads. The height of this structure must alos

 be included, so we can verify its compliance with our zoning

 requirements.

             

[rotornuts]

Sounds reasonable so far. That's some standard building permit stuff there. Can blame them for wanting to verify the integrity of the structure.

Look into purchasing a tower that is certified.

Mike

[electrondady1]

your interest in wind power doesn't entitle you to put your neighbours at risk, if you build a 60' tower on a 50' lot and it happens to go  down, your neighbour gets 35' of tower on there place. your neighbours insurance company would sue you and the town. they haven't said no, they just want something safe. i would comply. maybe chat with (buy coffee)  the town engineer , he's the guy that will ok what you build. it would be good to have him on your side.

[farmerfrank]

I feel for you. In todays world things are SO regulated that progress will soon cease. Many companies are not expanding for the same reason....regulations and insurance. Sooth sayers warn of an impending recession very soon. Maybe thats what is necessary as a form of self preservation. Franklin and Edison never would have dared play with electricity in todays world for fear that someone would get eletrocuted. Half the world doesnt know where they will get their next drink of fresh water and we worry about how high the neighbours chimney is.

Anybody been watching the price of gold. Still got some cheap last year and its expected to go to 4 digits. This is what happened back in the 1930 too. Its a sign.

Enough harping. Have a good day everyone and go ahead and build your tower.

[GaryGary]

Hi,

Since I am an engineer, I may be prejudiced on this, but getting some help from a local licensed engineer may not be that expensive (shop around -- some PE's operate as a small business out of their house, and can be pretty reasonable).   This is not only a good idea from the point of view your safety and the safety of your neighboors, but a good engineer may have ideas that will save you money on doing the project.

Gary

www.BuildItSolar.com

[electrondady1]

i saw a documentry on edison last week, they discribed his efforts to discredit tesla and westinghouse's use of ac current, they publicly elecrocuted animals, cats, dogs even an elephant. can you imagine the uproar if this sort of thimg happened today!

[farmerfrank]

I am an engineer also....although the stationary kind. Something that I will never forget though is that....A whole bunch of engineers built the Titanic, while am amature built the arc.

As a sidenote...America no longer builds passenger or even cruise ships only oiltankers and warships and even that is quickly being exported. Why? Its TOO expensive due to labor,engineering,insurance etc. How will we survive?

[TomW]

Who designed the Tacoma Narrows bridge?

The Titanic was mentioned.

L'Ambiance Plaza.

The Kansas City Hyatt Regency.

Need I mention Fords Pinto?

Engineering failures of Shuttles come to mind too.

Just mentioning the obvious engineering failures of our time. Just my opinions likely not held by others.

Engineers are not gods like some think they are.

T

[dinges]

With thundering voice:

TomW, you are evil for not believing in engineers!

:-)

Can't say I disagree much with you, though. Before I was engineer, I looked up to them; now I am one, I can say almost anyone can do it.

Only question I have though: why does it have to be a LICENSED engineer. I'm an engineer and can make those calculations; aren't the diploma's from my schools & university good enough for the state of Pennsylvania, if I want to be an engineer there?

Peter,

The Netherlands.

[TomW]

Peter;

I happen to hold a degree or two, too so feel I can slander Engineers with impunity. I know of several that only just squeaked past the requirements but think they are the bees knees.

Mine happen to be electrical and electronics but we had to do a lot of study in the mechanical end too. Personally, I much preferred working as a tech over the engineering positions.

Just like any profession you have your geniuses and you have your buffoons.

Sadly the buffoons often also are the best with the B.S. and land the good positions with uncle Joe's firm, etc.

If you cannot stand up to some peer review you are sadly lacking whatever profession you are in.

Again, personal opinions not likely held by many.

Cheers.

TomW

[Bruce S]

As a fellow engineer I'd like to chime in here.

Like Peter I have enough diplomas and degrees to plaster my wall with, actually I did hang them in my old office once just to put a few jerks in their place.

Not fly by night places either Wash. U. of St. Louis EE, Cambridge BSM (don't laugh), Maryland U of M  etc.......

And what did all this get me? dickus when it came to going a round or two when designing the network for Baylor @ Grapevine ( The hospital at the end of the run way (My coupe degrasse(bad spelling on purpose))) this little tweek came and said I wasn't allowed as I wasn't registered with the Texas engineering association circa 1996.

I told him where to put his thoughts, bad idea BTW.

Found out that the whole idea of using licensed engineers ( and each state can refuse anothers license) is so that they can track the mistakes back to the engineer.

ooooooO you may say, but that's they way it is.

I personally do my own designs, then have a city engineer have a look at them and sign off on them just to make sure I'm in the clear. This is how I found out about St. Louis' height maximums.

Tom: I make fun of 'em too. It's fun to watch them get mad and all red faced ( the Union ones are the best) and then pull out the card with the alphabet and they shut up.

 We all have our life's little pleasures.

I'm a converted field analysis that came in from the cold 80% on the road days to IT where the coffee is always hot and I'm home most every night.

My favorite saying is: Commonsense is golden and just as rare.

Cheers

Bruce S

 

[cyplesma]

commonsense certainly comes first for anything done anywhere by anyone.

the nice thing about having the degree ( i don't) is you have had a formal process to learn how to apply that commonsense.

experience (wisdom - actually doing something ) always takes precedence of knowledge (knowing the formulas - one example).

I've met a lot of engineers I wouldn't trust with an extension cord, and I've met a lot of lawyers I wouldn't trust with my home phone or address.

My vocation is programming, but I strive to keep my commonsense. the trick with new frontiers (personal frontiers that is) is knowing what you can and can't do with a physical gadget. Sometimes it still great to ask the dumb questions before you leap from the cliff when your told there's a ledge just outta sight from the top.

nepitism will never go away.

on the lighter side...........

how many engineers does it take to change the lightbulb, 5 - 3 to write up the work flow, 1 to make sure the 1 who changes it does it safely and properly.

how many lawyers does it take to change the lightbulb, 5 - 1 to get instructions from engineer, 1 to make sure the 1 who changes it does it safely and properly, other 2 are waiting around with ligation to protect themselves and each from being sued and with ligation to sue anyone with any knowledge of the event in question.

how many salespeople does it take to change the lightbulb, 5 - 1 to change it, other 4 to market the whole experience.

there's more, but..... there are more important things in life.  8 )

[MountainMan]

I feel ya.  I want to build a house on my vacant land, but I can't bring myself to step inside the county building where you apply for a building permit.

Today I called to get information about non-permitted sheds.  Turns out I can build a shed up to 120 square feet without a permit.  I asked if I can build more than one..."no problem".  I asked how far apart they have to be..."nobody ever asked that before, I guess as close as you want".  Only catch, no electric or plumbing allowed.

So now I have a new plan.  I'm going to build about 30 of these sheds, about an inch apart, and in sort of a square formation, leaving a nice big courtyard in the middle.  I'm going to use the space between my sheds to store my 29 sheets of inch thick styrofoam insulation.

There you go, a nice 3600 square foot "shed villa", legally non-permitted.  Lots of storage.  I think I'll start an insulation retail company.   I'll have lots of storage to keep the excess inventory in.  I plan to stack it up against the back wall of each of my sheds, the wall next to the courtyard.

I called and asked if I need a permit to put a roof over a courtyard area.  Seems that a real roof does require a permit, but I can put one of those "pergola" type (beams and slats) covers over a courtyard without a permit. I asked how far apart the slats have to be.  She said "I don't know, nobody ever asked that before".  I'll put a pergola over the courtyard, only I'm going to put the slats "really close together".  I'll store the rest of my styrofoam insulation in between the slats.

I asked the lady if I need a building permit for my copper sculpture.  She seemed alarmed by the thought of some huge copper sculpture, and said "how big is it"?!  Oh, I said, it's kind of long, but its only about two feet high, and it will be in my courtyard, so the neighbors can't even see it.  "nope, no permit".  "My copper sculpture is going to be in the courtyard, and it might get wet from time to time, even on the inside."  "That's your problem", she said, annoyed (those county people always seem to be annoyed about something or other).

Then I asked her if I need a permit to run my generator.  She said no.  I asked her if it was ok to hook up some white 12 guage extension cords to the generator and run them around the edges of my courtyard behind some pieces of drywall I have "stored" out there.  "No problem."  "By the way, my generator works best when it is windy outside, is that going to be a problem?"  She cocked her head to one side and got a puzzled look on her face and said "I don't think so".

So, there you go, nice big 1500 square foot "courtyard" with lots of nearby storage and an average R value of about 200, and no permits!

jp

[ghurd]

A friend 'replaced' 2 walls of his 1 car garage with walls more suited to a 2 car garage. Then he 'moved' the other 2 walls. Then 'replaced' them. Then he 'replaced' the roof. Someone called the inspector when he was 90% done. Turns out 'replacing' was OK without a permit. It didn't even raise his taxes until the next county wide adjustment.  Wierd.

But I think zoning is good.

And inspections are good if the guy doing it knows what he's looking at.

Tower failures are kind of common around this board. Reports from Dan, Zubbly, Tom...

Seems like a overly strong tower is a good idea, even if it won't land on somebody if it falls.

G-

[terry5732]

What next? A limit on tree height to the distance to your neighbors property?

The licensed, college educated engineer who needs to approve is more of a risk than the tree. No one wanting to put up a mill is planning on it not staying up until such time as they want it down. There is just to much government for REAL progress anymore. My dad's neighbors actually got the city to order him to remove a tree on his lot. Maybe he should complain that the tall utility poles ( 50 years old ) in his neighbors yard are a nusance and need to go.

Isn't a 50 ton aircraft over your property a risk? Did the city engineer check it out?

[rotornuts]

I could go with that but sure as hell the day that someone's windmill and tower fall onto your house you'll be bitching up and down that the damn city shouldn't let any fool put up something that could damage your property or injure your family so tell me which is it going to be?

Mike

[ghurd]

We had a rental house with nice giant oaks on the north side of the property.

SOB behind it kept sueing us for damage to his pool. All BS. Every year, sometimes twice. (a stick tore the cover, a leaf plugged the pump...)

So we cut them all down.

Then he was mad because they formerly shaded his yard and part of his pool. Now it was too hot to use his pool or yard because there was no shade. Guess he couldn't find a laywer for that one.

Nut even made the tree guys come and pick up a quart of chainsaw chips off of his property.

(bet you can relate this kind of BS Rich?)

G-

[ubud]

we the unwilling led by the unknowing have done so much for so little we can now do anything with nothing

Frank

CIWIH

[TomW]

G-;

Just a slight nit pick... It was a yaw bearing failure. The tower was and is solid as a rock. It is also 3X it's height from any building and a quarter mile from any property lines.

Since I occasionally use it to inspect crops from up in the air it qualifies as an agricultural structure and agricultural use structures require no permitting or inspections. We do not seem to have any inspections out here anyway for anything but water wells and sewage systems. Only restrictions on electrical is that the local power Co-op must approve any wiring before they will connect you to the grid. Apparently they do not care about much beyond the payments.

The upside of living in an agricultural area allows you to do about anything once you have a certain amount of land. Under 15 acres then you cannot do certain stuff like park mobile homes on it, build a house, etc.

I guess I just never checked because I learned early on that many things are no problem until you "ask".

Cheers.

TomW

[kitno455]

one of my favorite sayings:

'tis easier to do and ask forgiveness than it is to get permission

that said, some of you might want to wipe the chips of your shoulder, the paper pushers at the county are looking out for YOU too. if you do like they say, you are much harder to sue when the thing kills your neighbor...

allan

[farmerfrank]

I hope you had the plaster wall engineered before hanging your certificates. I can see that come next and if(oops I mean when) that happens I want a share of the pie.

[dinges]

Of course, there's a big difference when an engineer starts mocking 'us' engineers, or when a social-sciences person does it :-p

There's only one thing two engineers will agree upon: that the third one is an idiot.

Peter,

The Netherlands.

(economist too, so I'm in the clear...)

[Phil Timmons]

Well, a lot of humorous digs back and forth.  Always good to laugh at.  I usually wind up turning a mess like this into an MBA slam.  Like Dilbert I see the business folks as true cause of all evil on the planet.

Overall I tend to match with Bruce S.  

I do most of my own designs (gEEk, also, but not PE) and it is nice to have the "overwatch" of someone else.  Often the guys (generally guys) that do reviews may know less of the actual details of the projects than I do, but that is ok, too.  By the time I bring them up to speed for their endorsement, it has provided a very good review of the project . . .  and as Covey says, "If you really want to learn something, teach it."

Anyway, some craftiness and cleverness sometimes lends well into building code issues, as well.  

For example, if the issue is a rated tower, are their not already stamped plans available for DIY towers?  I do not know off-hand, but it would not surprise me with the large amount of other type towers going up (cell, broadband, power).  Maybe a set of plans already exist and it gives you a good working design right up front.

Another approach is a rose may not be a rose if another name is used.  Maybe "Flag Poles" do not require permits in your area?  What is the difference between a flag pole and genny tower?  Some of the mega-flags I see at car dealers (probably 30 x 50 feet) have to carry a larger wind load than a homebuilt genny.  So stick up a flag pole and (sometime later) fly your genny from it.

Dunno, just trying to help you think outside of "can do" and "can't do."

[ghurd]

My bad.

G-

[Bruce S]

I LOVE IT!!

 Since you can't have plumbing or electricity in the sheds, then you could use the 12 ga extension cords to run lawn lights.;-))

Use 10penny nails for expansion room of the slats and you're all set.

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Frank ;

 you didn't happen to be with the 88th H.E.M. in Grossehauheim,Germany ?

That was our Montra, even a had a welder make up a sign for the 20' doors, everyone thought it was cute til the 3 star general came on a visit.

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

allan;

  No chip here. You should hear some of what the engineers working for the city come up with. They laugh right along with us and can understand most of the plights as we jibe at them.

Look at what trouble those very guys are in since the Taum Sauk dam broke.

A billion gallons!!

Bruce S

[farmerfrank]

The car you drive is also killing your neighbour...as well as yourself

[para t8]

allan,you siad u live in rich.maybe we can help each other.i live next to the st.joseph's villa.ernestbinns@wmconnect.com,drop me a line.  para t8