Magnet Placement Box fan Conversion

[coldspot]

Getting Box fan Conversion done.

[coldspot]

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/box_fan_coils.jpg"

The coils will be replaced as soon as I get some wire

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/IMAG0029.jpg"

Some of parts played with

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/gap_getting_close.jpg" >

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/IMAG0022.jpg"

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/rotors.jpg"

AS it looks, a lot harder than expected.

trip to a friends shop needed.

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/magnet_Neo_50.jpg"

My magnet size

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/1_deep_and_two_deep.jpg"

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/lathed.jpg"

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/real_lath_worked.jpg"

After worked over in a real shop. lol

A new plan for hubs!

src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/half_inch_3_inch_hub_maybe.jpg" width=80%><BR>src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/half_inch_hub_drilled_out.jpg"

Just now wondering about why not just go around the rotor with magnets, all the way. ?

could but about 16 around stock rotor.

Could but double stacked around with smaller wider one from .07HP motor, but would rather use that one for it's own conversion. Much larger wire with only 4 coils.

[coldspot]

Boy, that didn't work out

friken auto format button near as I can tell!

[coldspot]

ONE MORE TRY- (3RD)

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/IMAG0022.jpg" width=80%><BR>

what i'm playing with

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/gap_getting_close.jpg" width=80%><BR>

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/magnet_Neo_50.jpg" width=80%><BR>

<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/rotors.jpg"

width=80%><BR>

[ghurd]

My understanding is it can be 6 for single phase, or 4 for 3 phase.

With 8 evenly spaced magnets there is going to be 2 magnets over each coil, and the flux will 'short out' accross the laminate without linking the coils.

For small hubs ready to go, I've been eyeing up Surplus Center's 'sprockets with hub' for $5 or $10.  But fixed a couple 'issues' with my HF mini lathe (thanks NTL!) so I'll probably go back to speaker parts.

G-

[kitno455]

what i'm playing with

[kitno455]

if you are going to include html directly, you have to set the format to html before you post. allan

[coldspot]

kinto455-

Thanks but could you explane that please!

ghurd-

thanks also, are you talking about 6 coils or 4?<BR><img src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4993/box_fan_coils.jpg" width=80%><BR>

[kitno455]

if you are going to put html in your post, you have to set the dropdown that says 'auto format' to 'html formatted'


allan

[ghurd]

Talking about 6 coils.

G-

[coldspot]

Thanks again to kinto455 & ghurd
man this thing is kicking my butt.










This is the new HUB plan!









After worked over on Real tools!



Parts played with!

[ghurd]

Magnet placement, from the other post.

Depends on what you want to have when its done.

Box fan can be single phase or 3 phase, and 2 wiring methods each, not including a rewire.

The 220V motor will make good voltage at a low speed without total rewiring, but the amps will be low. I have a feeling its better suited to 24V or 48V, but it wouldn't stop me from adding magnets to find out. Jerry's garbogen-style coil reconnections would help, if you can find the right wires (I never can).

Don't know much about 2 speed motors.

The magnets are small and thin. 0.500 x 0.070"? May want to consider at least doubling them and keep the air gap kind of small.

I place them, and try it, place them again... Not as scientific as you might think.

A little misplacement really helps if cogging is an issue, as usual. Like if the magnets are at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00. Moving the 3:00 and 9:00 to around 3:05 and 9:05 helps.

With multiple round magnets per pole, the pole lines can be skewed, ala Zubbly style.

[coldspot]

Thanks ghurd

But I'm still looking for a number of magnets per coils

like for the box fan 6 coils unit,

using the 3-4 formula, gives me 8 magnets. (yea I know I'll be using different numbers

because I'll be using stacks of smaller ones)

But I wonder about how many groups per coils

I went ahead and did a extra motor yesterday

G.E.

model 5KH46JR151AS

HP  1/2

Rpm  1725/1140

V  115

Hz  60

A  8.1/6.5

code  N   KPR5Z

PC  B730L

rise   70`C. Cont

I made the grove two deep and two wide (.491 X .079)

This motor has three sets of four coils

Inner set #22

middle set #17

outer set #15

While the 1/4 HP motor

has two sets of six coils

inner and outer are #22

One cool thing about all these motor

is that all from the box fan to the 1/2H

have a 1/2" shaft

unlike my many DC motor mini mills

those have a different shaft on each one

from 3/8" to .675 for the 2.5HP treadmill motor

and new hub plan working so far, but

friend with "Real Tools" still things

we should build from scratch, lol ! easy for him to think.

I think I should send zubbly a message

He being the conversion king might be able to advise.

Anyway Thanks for all the help ghurd

[ghurd]

Hi Coldspot,

Master Zubbly will see, he always does.  

If he has anything to add, he will, he always does.  

That's part of why he is The Master.

I am more visual, and there is a lot of stuff I have not seen.

I'm only comfortable with the box fan. Having some experience in the 'unusual', and seen some pics.

For the box fan motor, I like the 4 magnet / 6 coil 3 phases (probably "Jerry Rigged").  Because the 8 magnet / 6 coil will have pairs of magnets shorted across the top or center part of the laminates, and the cogging is less than 6/6 single phase (in my experiences here).  The factory wiring has a BUNCH of wiring configurations that can adjust the output at a given RPM.

John and Zap have had less than good experiences with 4 magnets / 6 coil box fans, I gather.  Not sure why, most of mine are thrown together with whatever is at hand.

John has low output and Zap has bad cogging with the 4/6 configurations.  Maybe their magnets are to wide?  Still trying to figure Zap's problem out, but I'm at a loss.

Statements like "the 1/4 HP motor has two sets of six coils inner and outer are #22"

I don't know for sure what the means.  

I figure it is PROBABLY good for 6 magnets (single or groups).  And maybe 2 seperate phases or coil groups. The left coil and the right coil are right next to each other?

My experience says it will be high volts but low amps, low cut in speed.  Reassigning the coils like garbogen style, then connecting for seperate rectification seems best for me, usually. If I can do it.

The GE 2 speed?  Wish I knew.  

(I have a feeling the coils could be reassigned for 2 or 3 or 4 seperate 'Jerry Rigged' outputs with different cut in RPMs.

Then with 12 magnets...  Stop me! I'm confusing myself!)

If you have the motors, slap the correct number of magnets on, go from there with skewing and air gap and delta or star...

For conversions, I think about the coils and magnets layed out flat, like a cone was forced through the axel until everything lays flat. Then the same principles apply to conversions as they do to axials, like 6/8, 9/12, or 9/27, or 6/18...

BTW, there is a 2/3 (same as 4/6) 3-ph formula windstuffnow Ed, Jerry, and Flux seem to have exploited from time to time. In my opinion it is the same as overlaping coils, maybe with a twist, depending on how it is applied or defined.

I like a 'real old' post by Ed, "3 phase vs 3 phases" or thereabouts.

G-

[coldspot]

Thanks ghurd

The unusual- Thats my life

the 1/4HP has two sets of six coils, inner and outer

#22 was best quess at wire gauge, using calipers, (0.025)

the coils are off set from each other

so when a mag goes by the inner coils legs

that are next to each other, it's centered on middle of outer coils.

I'm looking at the wires more today on all projects, trying to better

under stand it all.

1. /4HP has two sets of four wires coming out of it
   
4. smaller ones with 4 larger ones
   
   

I'll play with Ohm meter today to learn configuration.

The box fan coils are easy to see and play with

wish I had some wire to rewire it with.

 

[ghurd]

I still don't believe the box fan needs rewired, just 'connected different'.

It's probably not suited for more than a couple amps anyway, so why go through the frustration?  (I learned I ain't Zubbly)  With 4 magnets, between star or delta-Jerry Rigged, something good enough should work good enough.

Having bushings instead of bearings, and a shaft that can rust, it doesn't seem like a great idea to put a lot of money of into something like this.  It can be done for 100% free.  Microwave wire, HD or microwave magnets, same blade, etc.

[coldspot]

ghurd-

THANKS,

" so why go through the frustration?"

Cause we can.

"(I learned I ain't Zubbly)"

I know I'm not also but,

I have rewound a motor or two B4

micro sized when looking at what

is played with here! lol

Wayback, late 80's

RC Car racin days

.05 size motors

three coils on arm

rewound

Cheating to keep up, LOL

Was great fun and some of the best times

I don't think my body could

take a 4 min race now-a-days

I remember some BIG Races

takin a great HIT on body

after a hot heat, (shake so hard

for 4 min that a chair would have

been a keep from falling down life n health saver) LOL!!