Author Topic: Working on a Toroid Gen idea  (Read 6517 times)

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Ampman354

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Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« on: May 12, 2006, 06:53:37 PM »
I have finally decided to make a Axial Flux generator but it will be a Toroid(sp).




And after some thinking like poles will have to be aligned on top of each other, but will alternated on the rotor themselves.



one of the N's on the above pic should be S but oh well.


I have yet to understand "eddy currents" and loss's in the stator etc.

Can't ever find a program or really go explaination or something that explains that stuff.  But everthing that I've seen and what i do know, though that maybe exremely little compared to some"  I think this idea should work.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 06:53:37 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2006, 01:17:30 PM »
i see no benefit from putting a North over a North

i saw your other post and read enough to determine that a north over a north is unworkable

just my opinion
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 01:17:30 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2006, 02:33:13 PM »
now a north over a south is a different story and should work fine.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 02:33:13 PM by willib »
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kitno455

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2006, 02:56:08 PM »
willi- he's got it right- north on both sides. maybe if you 'read far enough' you might get it. look at the drawing for more than 30 seconds before you comment.


i have made a tiny one from a spool of galvanized steel wire and a couple of motorcycle rotors, using hard drive mags. i found it hard to keep the stator from flexing as i closed the air gap. i am trying to think of a way to re-build the stator stronger.


also- the biggest benefit of this design is not realized here- you can actually get all 4 sides of the coil being crossed by a mag at the same time. my next unit will use a brake drum over a brake rotor with a tall hat. rotor and drum fastened at the outer edge.


allan

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 02:56:08 PM by kitno455 »

rotornuts

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2006, 03:06:49 PM »
This may seem like a silly question and I'm likely misunderstanding somethong but...


How do you get a gaggle of loops inside a continuos rotating disk whilst supporting the disk and not breaking the coils?


Mike

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 03:06:49 PM by rotornuts »

oztules

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2006, 03:45:55 PM »
Looks good in theory.


Before you finalise the design, it may be of interest to look carefully at the spooner,wu and co report again, and consider the effects of the iron loss to the IxIxR problem.

Really the only possible benefit of this design is that the end loops are shorter, and this helps the IxIxR losses, but at the lower power range, it looks like the resistive losses are outweighed by the iron losses. (the eddy current losses referred to in their table refers to the edddy currents in the copper coil as I understand it, the iron losses are the eddycurrents in the donut). Therefore it is important to understand your iron eddy currents and their effect on you output at lower wind speeds.


If you are trying to harvest the lower winds, then there is nothing to be gained by this technically more difficult design, as the wire losses by the "normal Danb" system are going to be far smaller than the iron loss   at lower power.


If your design is faster in rpm for a given power than the 200 rpm/5000W spooner one, then iron loss will become more of a problem... so give this some serious thought. It may well be that the best design you can come up with, may well only win at the higher end of the generating range, and that you are at a disadvantage at the normal wind speed range.


That being said, I like the idea that you are going ahead anyway, but give some thought to the structure. Rotornuts has pointed out a difficulty about holding the concentric loops together.... you can probably use looped flat silicon steel, and do what they seem to do with most universal motors and a lot of big transformers nowdays...run a bead of weld across the plates to physically hold them. I would have thought that this would negate the use of the plates in the first instance, but it seems to be common practice nowdays.


The other thing to ponder, is the use of a radial setup, this could allow you to use large motor laminates as the plane will change from vertical integration to horizontal...this lends itself to easy procurement (stolen from large three phase motor  or the like), and also easy assembly. The two drums supporting the Mags could be assembled before the stator had to be put in between the two drums. This would alleviate the axial thrust problems referred to in Spooner.


Must go now to help a neighbour erect an African Wind Power mill on top of the nearby mountains.....can't wait...


But do think about the percieved gains, and how to minimise the losses in the steel.


.............oztules

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 03:45:55 PM by oztules »
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kitno455

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2006, 06:34:37 PM »
mike- the disk inside is not rotating. it is a fixed ring of laminate strap, or powdered iron or wire, or even the stator from a regular induction motor (yes, the lams go the 'wrong way' in that case, but they are so thin, there should be little 'backside' return path for the eddy current?). though you have given me an interesting idea-


would a solid iron ring inside a fiberglass shell, supported by three roller bearings on the inner surface, rotate along with the magnetic field? it would be almost impossible for the homebuilder to make, but you could wrap the coils around the shell, and have a triple rotor of sorts. with an interior and exterior (at least partial) drum of mags, you should be able to have almost none of the coils be 'dead' resistance, and the eddy losses minimal... coat the solid ring on three sides with mags for more output...


linear bearing speeds and/or drag will probably kill the idea.


allan

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 06:34:37 PM by kitno455 »

RP

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2006, 07:20:37 PM »
Looking at these things I'm curious:  Do you really need any iron inside the coils at all?  If I understand the way the flux "squirts out" between two opposing norths to get to the next set of opposing souths then it seems like the iron is superfluous and a ring of plywood (for instance) could be used.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 07:20:37 PM by RP »

willib

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 07:58:52 PM by willib »
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bob g

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2006, 08:38:17 PM »
check out the following


http://home.att.net/~r.b.gayle/torogentoroids.html


http://www.otherpower.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config.pl?read=4530


i have alot of interest, and have done some thinking and design work based on toroids, check out the old other powerboard and do a search on torogen, toriods etc.


sadly life has made it to where i don't have the needed time to further the development, i hope to one day down the road pick up where i left off.


the interesting thing of the torogen design is its modular construction, in that the stator is made up of individual toroids. This enables one to configure easily to the available wind speed, and blade combinations. Also burnt coils can be easily removed and serviced or replaced without total disassembly and rewinding the entire stator assembly.


damn i got to get time to get the ball rolling again on this one.


no time,, :(


bob g

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:38:17 PM by bob g »
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RP

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2006, 08:39:33 PM »
Here's what I'm talking about





You need the north-north, south-south facing magnet pairs to get the effect.  Essentially you use the mutual repulsion of the fields above and below the stator to turn the flux by 90° to sideways between succesive magnet pairs.


The cheesy red lines are the flux paths trying to connect north and south poles.  The rotor flux paths between magnets are not shown.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:39:33 PM by RP »

willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2006, 09:41:00 PM »
i understand what you are doing , what i dont understand is why

that paper that  oztules refered to made no mention of the polarity , one way or the other

so i dont see why you would want to do it that way

when you can do it directly ,by putting a north over a south , alternating N-S-N  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 09:41:00 PM by willib »
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Ampman354

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2006, 10:43:19 PM »
This is the reason for have N facing N




To keep the induced currents for canceling each other out...this are not regular coils.  If i have a N crossing over the wires on top and S on the bottom side of the coil at the (SAME) time then induced current will cancel eachother out.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 10:43:19 PM by Ampman354 »

Ampman354

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2006, 10:47:45 PM »
Next I need to brush back up on eddy currents i'm not sure i remember them correctly.


And i need some type of simulator that will help me with the flux line....I have one already buts a freeby and is limited.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 10:47:45 PM by Ampman354 »

willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2006, 11:07:38 PM »
that would be true if there were no core , but i'm not sure that is the case when there is a core .

it would seem to me that the core is attracting flux , North and South , to that extent there would be north fulx entering from the top ,and traversing through the upper leg of the coil , while comming up from the bottom a South pole is traversing the bottom leg of the coil.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 11:07:38 PM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2006, 12:40:03 AM »
All the comments from others are relevant to a torus alternator.


You seem to be under the impression that you can build a homopolar generator to produce dc. As I said previously this is a simple trap to fall into but it doesn't work.


You can build a core from a bundle of mig wire ( like a Gramme ring) that is good enough for you to prove your idea doesn't work.


Alternatively you could go the whole way with a decent core and alter the magnets to produce a proper torus alternator and have a working device at the end.


Regarding someone else's comment, the torus alternator does suffer from eddy loss in the copper just as a dual rotor does and the only way round it is to use parallel thin wires rather than thick ones.

Flux

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 12:40:03 AM by Flux »

whiskey

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2006, 04:35:09 AM »
Proven Wind Turbines use a toroid wound coil arrangement for their machines. I do not have a picture to post. Perhaps someone else here has one, it would show you graphically how they approached the task.


Whiskey

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:35:09 AM by whiskey »

tecker

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 05:05:00 AM »
 The flat ferrous material ( steel , laminates etc ) will try to bond with the pole of closest magnet . Flow happens when the proximity of an opposite pole over comes the density of the material in question ie the workability of laminates . So you'll only create a hot spot as the magnet passes if the material is thick and in the case of laminated thin plates some flow would happen but a flat surface would tend to bond creating a null spot just under the pole as a magnet is forming ie the use of core segments in motor stators.  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 05:05:00 AM by tecker »

Flux

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2006, 05:14:06 AM »
I think there is a picture on Hugh Piggots site with the cover removed from a prototype.


Proven do indeed use a torus but they know what they are doing and are not trying to invent something that doesn't work. The torus is fine but it doesn't produce dc and it is better made bipolar, although it can work as an alternator if made unipolar, as can all other alternators.

Flux

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 05:14:06 AM by Flux »

willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 09:27:56 AM »
ampmam354 i hope you didnt give up on this great idea , even if it was thought of before , it sure brings up some interesting discussions.


below  are some tables taken from oz's pdf.


the amount of power they got from that 18"dia machine is pretty awesome, and at such low rpm .

the voltages they quoted were also high indeed


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/torus_details.JPG


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/torus_efficiency.JPG


i think the orientation of the laminates in the core is critical to the success or failure of this  machine , some investigation on this is needed

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:27:56 AM by willib »
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tecker

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 09:51:25 AM »
If you were able to get the core set correcty the ablity to stack a lot of copper in a small area would be a real advantage.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:51:25 AM by tecker »

Flux

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2006, 12:54:56 PM »
They don't give the magnet size but making an inspired(or otherwise guess) from the fig2 I suspect the magnets are about 4" x 1" in effective area and they say they are 1/2" thick.


I have just checked the figures to see what a dual rotor would do and as I expected they are remarkably similar.


The torus may have better cooling but at 75% the dual rotor should be ok as well.

Flux

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 12:54:56 PM by Flux »

willib

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2006, 02:24:58 PM »




i agree they are 4" long , they look tapered , dont they

75% ? ..efficiency ?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 02:24:58 PM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Working on a Toroid Gen idea
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2006, 02:36:26 PM »
Yes they seem to be made of 2 rectangular sizes.


75% yes easy , they didn't bog it down into a fixed voltage like a battery. That makes life so much easier. They no doubt used a converter to match it to the line, if it was ever tried as other than a bench experiment. Their rectifier was into a resistive load.

Flux

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 02:36:26 PM by Flux »