Vawtman needs name change

[vawtman]

Since I first visited this sight I tried many configurations of the vawt.Had fun doing it.

But in ending realized that these turbines no matter how well designed need a monster swept area maybe 4times the hawt to acheive the same goal.

Trying to govern the blade speed with the gen isnt worth the bother.

Im probably going to get alot of told you so,s but I wanted to defy the naysayers.

I dont regret the many hours thinking about the designs and testing.

Ill still keep the turbine at the base of the tower and mess with it.Thanks for all the negatives and positives thats what makes this sight awesome.

----------.

[windstuffnow]

  I know there are alot of nay sayer out there but I think there are lots of possibilities for small VAWT's .   The possibilities are endless if your working with the right machine.   There are many tasks the VAWT can do much better than an HAWT and visa versa.  

  Below is a picture of a mini Lenz turbine producing over 60 volts open circuit in a 6.5 mph wind... standing a mere 8 inches tall and 17 inches in diameter

  Below is a night shot of the same turbine running 22 Ultrabright LED's in the same wind...

  If you tell me it can't be done with a small VAWT... I'll show you how it can be done... ;o)

  You're giving up to easily...

.

 

[oztules]

Vawtman.....................Ronb is watching...  However,

I can't help but feel that if your turbine spins, then with the correct alternator matched up with it, it will work.

We talked some time ago, and it was suggested that the alt you have built, is too big for that turbine. It needs a slow rpm axial flux hanging off the end of it before you can dismiss it out of hand.

Ed has a pic of his turbine (micro) above, and he has matched the abilities of the mill to an alt that he feels will match it..... if he used your multi hp alt, it would need a hurricane to start it.... but with the right alt, it produces power at 6.5 mph... more than your 8 footer has thus far i think.

The one he had on the roof got decent power, and unless you feel he's massaging the figures, (I don't believe for a moment that he is), then there is power to be had from this type of machine.

Is it really the mill type, or is it the matching.... I agree that for power generation, the Danb/Hugh system is the standard, but if you have a mill of around .3 (as against the .4 etc for the Hawt), then you should still get reasonable power out of it... just to prove a point....(then you can give up)....Solwind is still claiming good figures, and I haven't heard anyone disputing them.

Ed has built many Hawts and Vawts, he has not dumped the Vawts, even though so-far, he has yet to surpass the hawts efficiency (as I understand it anyway), this can only mean that they are not completly useless.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your decision, building a hawt is the sensible thing to do......it's easier by miles, has less problems to solve, and they have all been overcome right here.

But perhaps have a good think about why you feel like this, is it the Vawt or is it "this" machine and that "alt" that has broken the spirit.

So in finishing this, there is nothing wrong with realising that the rest of the world may have gotten it correct, but there is something to be said for "matching the load."

Your Alt needs a good Hawt, and your Vawt needs a matching alt.

Take it from someone who has no talent, but is plenty stubborn...it aint always easy.

Master of blowing fets and things up,

but not giving up too soon..............oztules

[willib]

you've  seen the error of your ways

 nothing can beat the speed  and power of a hawt

welcome to the light ,  Hawtman..

[electrondady1]

vawtman don't listen to willib! he likes round coils !and gives advise on making hydrogen! he might be the devil!!  

i had my moment of darkness about 6 months ago. started thinking about propellers, yikes !

i'm ok now, but getting the balance between mill and geni is a real challenge .

if ed can do it, we can.

[zubbly]

hey vawtman!

basically, do what keeps ya happy. i do what keeps me happy, power generated is just a by-product of fun  

and keep your name. if you knew the meaning of "zubbly"  you would be more than happy to keep yours.  LOL!

zubbly

[drdongle]

So enlighten us oh "Z" man

[vawtman]

Oz I think the trees in my yard grew about 10ft over winter.I figure Im going to need a hefty 30ft tower just to get to vawtish winds.

I know I didnt have things matched up right but the turbine had no trouble spinning it with heating elements when the wind was out of the SSE.

In the end it wasnt so much the turbine it was the landscape.I know think like Oz and cut them all off.My wife wont let me run the saw unless supervised.LOL

 I forgot about Ron I bet he didnt sleep at all last night.

[TomW]

Doc;

So enlighten us oh "Z" man

Thats not gonna happen. There is a long standing offer of a free 10 KW Z conversion delivered to your door for the person who can put the meaning of "zubbly" into print on a screen.

Cheers.

TomW

[zubbly]

if i enlightened you, then it wouldn't be a secret anymore, and i would have to return to planet zubloid for spilling the beans  

zubbly

[willib]

i think that i've convinced/ converted some to the benefits of round coils for round magnets .

i don't know of this hydrogen you speak of is that a type of dog?

i really , really. really like this place, beware newcomers the addiction starts when you click on a link called fieldlines and  gets worse when you become a member !!

[vawtman]

Zubbly I remember when I was a kid I was a superhero named Super Chicken had the cape and all the goodies.My sister never lets me forget about it.

You must have really taken it to extreems to get here.

[wdyasq]

"to return to planet zubloid for spilling the beans"

Rather than be banned for passing gas because of the beans?

Ron

Who STILL wants to see a succeessful VAWT....

[wind4Reg]

Sorry you feel this way vawtman. But seriously and I mean this in the nicest sort of way, I don't think you have given the VAWT a fair shot. If you built a HAWT and put it on a tower that appears to be in your pictures 8-10 feet at the hub off the ground with trees around you then you might not be too impressed with it's performance either. I have seen the pics of your VAWT and I feel it is a good learning test model, however looking at the design I think we can both agree that there are problems with it that are leading to massive inefficiencies, that might lead you to make the statement that you need 4 times the swept area to achieve the same goal as a HAWT. If you build a HAWT, and build it of similar construction so that it is the same efficiency as your VAWT, and put it on the same tower/stand as your VAWT, do you really believe that given the same swept area it will perform 4 times better?

I like what Paul Gipe says in his book "Wind Power Renewable Energy for Home, Farm and Business" page 106:

"Darrieus rotors have also been plagued by a misperception that they are less efficient than conventional wind machines because the blades must run both with and against the wind. Even so, the blades on a Darrieus turbine produce lift for most of their orbit around the turbine's axis. ... In other words, their performance is similar to that of conventional wind turbines; not any better but certainly no worse."

I consider Paul an expert in the field and this is probably some of the most unbiased statements that you will hear about VAWTs.

With my own VAWT project, my plans call for a 80 foot tower minimum. I am also using symetrical blades which have been shown in tests to outperform cambered blades on straight bladed VAWTs.

While I fully admit that VAWTs present special challenges to the designer/builder, I see this as part of the draw to the verticals. And there are a lot of naysayers, most of which who have never built a lift based VAWT. If I was on here trashing HAWTs and had never built one, then I really should just say nothing about them. My opinion of HAWTs is that they are a proven design and the most popular. I know that I could easily put up a HAWT and have it producing power in probably less than half the time it will take me to finish my VAWT.

If your main goal is just to get a wind turbine in the air producing power, then you should build a HAWT, the detailed instructions for a successful HAWT are readily available and anyone who wants to can get the plans and build one. Now on the other hand if you have the desire to build something cool and different that also will produce power when finished but may take twice the planning, construction time and effort then you should consider wiping the slate clean, and build a better VAWT, and this time put that puppy on a tower the height that you would give a HAWT. There are no plans available for VAWTs that I know of and that is half the fun.

My first VAWT "sucked". It performed so poorly that I almost said screw it to the verticals, but I really wanted a vertical so I built another model, different this time based on a lot more research, and the result was a self-starting H-Rotor which everyone said didn't happen. Yes it too had it's flaws, however I have learned a lot from these builds and I expect my big VAWT to work much better. Will my new one have problems too? I suspect it will do to oversights on my part, but this is a learning game and a lesson in experimentation with failures and success.

I can't wait to see the pics of your new VAWT... vawtman! (no name change required)

wind4Reg

[zubbly]

vawtman,

will give you the same clues i give the others.

comes from an ancient language

has a powerful terrible meaning

happy guessing

zubbly

[inode buddha]

VAWTman, please keep your name. I've been following your writings and learning, because its useful and good to know. I'll probably have to know that stuff someday, but I won't forget the guy who did the real work.

[kurt]

if you really want to change your user name i can do that for you without starting a new account. just email me your current user name and new user name to justme22250-wind at yahoo.com and it will be done.

[vawtman]

Hello Reg

 My first turbine put on that sight was a hawt carved the blades and everything.I knew they needed clean wind but just wanted to see how clean.The blades made a nice steak dinner.

 Has far has my blade design goes I wouldnt change a thing other than maybe open up the back like Eds to slow it.Has you know from past postings these blades are fast and I dont think any gen could hold it I know I have a hard time stopping it in 30 mph winds even with the 5hp on it but only lightly loaded with hand dryer elements.The blades look like there going backwards and my dual power poles buried down 4ft have to take the vibration of the 2 blades amazing how they shake.Thats why I would be nervous putting the beast on a tower much higher.3 blades would help.

 I forgot about Ron daring us to make a successfull 2kw turbine.

Ill keep thinkin and start on a tower of some sort.Meanwhile keep pluggin along on yours and HAVE FUN.

[craig110]

No, Vawtman, don't do it!  Don't give in to the (easy) dark side!  Some people play with RE because they need power and, to them, cookie cutter blueprints that lead to a predictable X watts fits their need perfectly.  Others play with technology to push the envelope regardless of  the results.  The passion with which you approach VAWTs tells me that you're in the second group ("the few, the proud, the inventors!") and don't give that up just over a few snags.  Skipping whether the number was from a fair comparison or not, big deal if a VAWT really takes 4x the swept area of a HAWT.  Push that ratio down to 3.5 or 3 and you've helped make big progress!

Vawtman, meet envelope.

Envelope, meet Vawtman.

Vawtman, push envelope.

:-)

Craig

[vawtman]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Craig.Ive had many darksides in the past with these only to bounce back.It seems the more frustrated I get the better.Back to skewing my stator lams.

[vawtman]

Thanks Inode.Ill take advantage of your booster shot.Thanks

[rotornuts]

Vawtman, don't give up yet.

Go ahead and build a horizontal but dont forget the vertical.

I've included some pics of some of the things I've tried(or parts of). Right now I'm too busy to do anything but work but I've kept most of the models I've built and the one in the last pic is about 14 feet in the air in the back yard, has been all winter and most of the time it does nothing but when the wind comes from the right direction it really goes. Doesn't mean it's no good, Just means it needs to be on a taller tower.

I get new ideas all the time from looking at the things I've done and have several new approaches I'd like to try when time permits.

leave your vertical in the air and when you watch it new ideas will pop into your head. Build more verticals with an anything goes attitude based on what you know and new ideas will pop into your head.

The pics below are a small sampling of the goofy stuff I've tried. Each one was a failure of sorts or on a grand scale but also a learning experience and each one has something to lend to my next project.

Don't give up too easily.

Mike

[Stonebrain]

You're right,

if you want real payback for your investment and work

go for direct solar waterheating.

VAWT builders are artists,

sometimes have to wait for new inspiration.

cheers,

stonebrain

[kenl]

 Vawtman, keep the name you earned it with your dedication and hard work to make a better machine. I've spent a lot of time following your designs with great interest. The evolution of them has shown your dedication to the design. Cut down the damn trees and keep plugging along. kenny

[vawtman]

Thanks Ken and guys

 Ive decided to press on with 16x16 and will post pics along the way.

Here are the preliminary specs;

  The spar will be built pretty much the same has the 8x8.Using the same airfoil design.

  Chord will be 32in.Width 6in 4 blades.Im planning on aluminum for the nose and tail with fiberglass milkhouse board for the rest.

  Rotor will be pretty much the same only doubled in metal size and diameter and also set for 4blades.

  The driveshaft will be 3in diameter with dual bearings.Sorta the same only twice has strong.

  The tower I think will be ok at 20ft without cutting the trees.Probably the strongest ever built.

  The gen will be either my current 5hp 4pole or the 3hp 12 pole im working on.Probably 50-1 gearbox.

  And yes Ron if you see this it will do 2kw in a 12mph wind.Once again thanks everyone(I HOPE)

 

[vawtman]

Thanks Mike and you got some cool designs there.

[willib]

if it wasnt for the simple yet very important fact that vawts are starting out at a disadvantage as compared to hawts , i would say go for it.

but hey its your time ,

i spent some time the  winter before last working on Eds cycloturbine , and got a working model going , and had it spinning quite fast , But and this is a big but it was tested in January and the wind was houling, i not sure it would even get spinning here in june , and i  think it would not produce any apreciable power most of the year.

but ,its your time.

just trying to help

[vawtman]

Hi Willib

 The nice thing about airfoil type vawts is they dont need to be directed into the wind like the turbine you mentioned.Also there is no moving parts to fail.I almost quit but thanks to the psyciatrists here im moving on.

[wind4Reg]

That's great news vawtman, if you didn't do it you would probably always regret it and would have wondered "what if". I would like to encourage you to check out other blade profiles, as I have mentioned in previous posts I think you could do better with a symetrical profile.

Here is a link to a project built by some Mechanical Engineering university students who tried with both symetrical and cambered blade profiles and you can see that the symetrical ones outperformed the cambered ones. It is funny because I talked to one of the team members before they started this project and convinced them to give the NACA0018 profile a try, because they really thought that their NACA4415 was superior and their research was leading them to choose the cambered NACA4415. I was so glad they decided to try both profiles, because for me I was waiting on their results and if the cambered blades would have come out on top, I'd be building my turbine right now with the cambered style. Anyway, check it out, and if you have the time and materials, build a small test unit and fit it with both style blades and then see which ones perform better. Here is that link:


NACA0018 vs. NACA4415


wind4Reg

[wind4Reg]

Here is a direct link to the page with the test results:

Test Results

[hvirtane]

Please read the first chapter of

Gary Johnson's book on "Wind Energy Systems"

to see how good also Savonius rotors

can be. In reality they are not much

worse than HAWTs with the same wind area.

http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/

- Hannu

[vawtman]

Hello Reg

 Thanks for sending the info.A couple things I noticed.

 Why the sav in the middle it should easily start in the 10mph(4.5)wind mine is doing 60rpms in that wind.They also mention it backing up that should never happen mine never backs up has a matter of fact in very high wind I just block one side it could back if it wanted but stays tight.Are their blades flat on the inside that could cause backing.The gen loading has they found will hamper startup for our type

we need to engage the gen once things get going.Also gearing needs to be isolated.

  I never studied airfoils just built a blade that worked.Thats how I am.

[vawtman]

Oh and a nother interesting observation I had was the other day when I turned the blades end for end so it was going counterclockwise.It spun slowerHmmmmmmm