Author Topic: Operation Espionage (Read 3110 times)

QUAZ HOLT · « **on:** June 28, 2006, 05:53:03 AM »

With camera and tools in hand and Quaz tied up I went to get the info for reverse engineering. This might be the last time I could get to this unit. I cracked the case to reveal this.

To my surprise a saw what look like two thermal switches. What for who knows.
It was late at night and I have to work fast. Next picture of the slip rings.

The rotor and the coils. Looks like a auto alternator conversion.

I noticed a small gap between the magnets and had to get a closer look.

The magnets are held in by a band of stainless steel and a small screw. I wonder if the magnets are glued in also? The magnet are flat on one side and quite rounded on the other. They do not follow the arc of the metal lams. These things must be to minimize cog. MR. X

Texas Al · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2006, 12:15:32 AM »

Looks impressive. What is it?

Flux · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2006, 12:37:06 AM »

Yes shaping the poles to form a non uniform air gap does help reduce the cog.

Any departure from a totally uniform gap will help. On larger machines it is done to improve waveform, but that doesn't matter here.

I won't tell him what it is yet, I like the way you keep'em in suspense.

Flux

dinges · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2006, 03:42:21 AM »

Can you explain how a non-uniform airgap reduces cogging?

And if it does, flat magnets should do the trick too? Because then the distance in the middle of the magnet to the stator would be bigger than at the sides of the magnet, basically an 'inside-out' situation from what's pictured above.

I like the idea of the stainless steel band to secure magnets in place.

What it is? Isn't that obvious? How many '403's are there. And what's this board all about? Duh...

To the original poster: you can't have enough pictures (some people (like me) have never seen a 403 for real). The more pictures, the better. Of the prop, mounting, pivot/yawing arrangement, etc.etc.

The overtemperature safeties have me puzzled a bit too... When the stator gets too hot it disconnects, causing runaway of the prop, I'd think.

Peter.

dinges · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2006, 03:44:45 AM »

On a closer look... The curvature of the magnets is almost equal to the curvature of the stator, suggesting that the manufacturer wanted to keep airgap as constant as possible (which would cause MORE cogging?).

PaulJ · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2006, 05:28:59 AM »

Last one of these I saw had caramelized coils, hence the thermal cutouts perhaps? Also, SWWP sells individual blades as spare parts so overspeed probably doesn't worry them too much. I think the blades on these things flex into stall at high speed regardless of alternator load anyway, noisy but usually effective.

Paul.

QUAZ HOLT · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2006, 09:36:06 AM »

The curvature of the magnets is almost equal to the curvature of the stator,
There is a measurable difference in the edge as apposed to the middle. I would say that a square edge must have sharper flux lines and would be closer at the edge thus more cogging. X

Murlin · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2006, 10:31:52 AM »

Out-freaking-standing!!!

I'm changing my design on my 22" rotors to have SS keepers.

I will not need to grind them in that way....WOOT!!!

So glad you posted that pic, it just saved me a lot of work....

Murlin

vawtman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2006, 04:05:28 PM »

Interesting it almost seems instead of skewing one slot.This setup skips a slot for reduced cogging maybe.

Goose · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2006, 04:52:05 PM »

Here's an article that shows a sketch with the same concept.

Ron and Tom didn't like it

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/12/17/23415/933

wdyasq · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2006, 06:11:01 PM »

Goose,

Read the effing post where I replied. All I said is the report was a one topic report. Tom did not say he did not like it either.

In fact, you might do a bit of research outside this board, if you don't. BUT, whatever you do don't tell other folks what you think I think.

Ron

Goose · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2006, 07:35:55 PM »

"If I see another reference to that scam artist site "hydrogenappliances" or a WIKIpedia link as sources of factual information again I may have to shoot myself."

Not sure what that meant? The post had nothing to do with a scam artist site "hydrogenappliances" or a WIKIpedia link.

And I took your reply as a negative comment to the original post. Sorry if I took it the wrong way!! effing? guess I better do more research on the net to figure that one out. I'll get my hand slapped and told to do a google if I ask.

TomW · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2006, 07:36:07 PM »

DITTO

Gee, I get into enough hassle on my own don't need help from the clueless.

I guess reading comprehension is a lost art

T

Goose · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2006, 07:48:45 PM »

"Gee, I get into enough hassle on my own don't need help from the clueless."

Please be nice. Flame wars and rude comments are NOT tolerated here, and the offending comments will be deleted immediately. Keep in mind that sarcastic and cynical comments that you might make in person (with a smile on your face!) often appear to be very rude on a discussion board.

I'm thinking I've read this on the board somewhere? Maybe I'm going crazy.

QUAZ HOLT · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2006, 11:29:31 PM »

I would let you know the secret but then I would have to kill you. All I want to know is who has the micro-fiche. MR X

hiker · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2006, 03:21:43 AM »

soooooooooo.........

whats the deal..rewire the stator or what?

?

finer wire for more volts and a early cut in speed,,,,,,,,?

kitno455 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2006, 05:28:59 AM »

haha- leave it to hiker to keep us on track here.

is it just my imagination, or does it appear to have two different sizes of wire in it?

allan

DanB · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2006, 07:57:02 AM »

I think the cog is further reduced by the unequal spacing in the magnets. There is that gap, for the screw that holds the stainless band, which means the magnets dont line up perfectly with teh slots all around.

Even with all that though - these machines still have a fairly serious issue with cogging I think. It takes quite a fair wind to get them spinning.

SparWeb · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2006, 01:25:06 PM »

Flux mentioned waveform, then I noticed the space between the magnets for the screw.

Would the irregular spacing of the magnets cause a hiccup in the waveform, or introduce a harmonic?

Or would it all come out in the wash?

While testing my genny, I hadn't glued the magnets down as I repeatedly re-arranged them - at one point the stator touched the magnet faces and moved them around a lot.

But I didn't notice any effect on the voltage....

Intriguing photographs, BTW.

Perhaps the thermal switches protect the generator, but the blades can handle whatever wind speed mother nature can throw at them...? Hence over-speed isn't an issue.

Just a guess, unless everybody else hadn't already jumped to that conclusion.

Bruce S · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2006, 02:08:59 PM »

Allan;

I pulled the pic into my photoshop and enlarged it up as far as I could.

The wire look to be the same size, it's the rosin that's making the optical illusion.

I'm interested ine SS band, and those 105c thermal cutout switches.

Since my wife is a chef and we have SS all over the kitchen, I can say for sure that it 1.) It cools quicker than standard steel 2.)none of the HD mag that I've rescued from a live of laziness will stick to these.

Could be a much lighter way to hold the really heavy duty NEOS in place while at the same time helping to lower the weight, cost and heat of say a 15' and above 'mill.

Cheers

Bruce S

kitno455 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2006, 05:23:30 PM »

did the same thing in the gimp- i think the outer winding is finer wire

we need the spy to tell us...

allan

SamoaPower · « **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2006, 07:28:28 PM »

In my 12 volt 403 Industrials (2) the stator coils are as follows:

Outer phase 50 turns of #20.

Middle phase 22 turns of #17.

Inner phase 18 turns of #16.

I know this because I just finished rewinding one with equal phases of 30 turns of #18 in an attempt to get better low wind performance. This will raise the cut-in speed but will be made up with a boost converter a la Flux. The swept area will also be increased.

My rotor is different than shown above with unarced rectangular skewed magnets. There's virtually no cog. I don't know if this came before or after the one shown.

News:

Author Topic: Operation Espionage (Read 3110 times)