Author Topic: Counter Rotating Vawts  (Read 7556 times)

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vawtman

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Counter Rotating Vawts
« on: October 10, 2006, 11:26:38 PM »
One vawt would run the outer diameter set of mags clockwise and the other would run the inner set couterclockwise with a stationary stator in between.What would happen cancel out things or work.Timing bothers me though


 I thought of this awhile back but was more for balance.


 I wish i could follow through with one project without all these ideas popping in my head.Has i go on.


 Thoughts

« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 11:26:38 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 05:49:40 PM »
First thing that would happen is that there would be ENORMOUS cogging between the two rotors.  They'd want to turn together.


If they ever did get started in opposite directions the field at the coils would be a real hash.  It would definitely not do what you want.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 05:49:40 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

vawtman

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2006, 06:14:37 PM »
Thanks and if the editors want to dump it thats ok.


 Maybe this will teach others what not to do at least.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 06:14:37 PM by vawtman »

RP

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2006, 06:54:03 PM »
Alternatively, you could mount the stator to the other rotor and use brushes to transfer the power out.  That way you could make use of the counter rotating action.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 06:54:03 PM by RP »

RP

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 06:54:33 PM »
Alternatively, you could mount the stator to the other rotor and use brushes to transfer the power out.  That way you could make use of the counter rotating action.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 06:54:33 PM by RP »

RP

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 07:10:43 PM »
Dang it!  I was "sure" I hadn't actually posted it the first time.  :-(
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 07:10:43 PM by RP »

A6D9

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 08:08:18 PM »
i wouldn't throw the idea away so fast.


What if you manageged to get soem kind of gear where as they spin in sinc?


that way the RPM woudl be the same for both just in opposite direction.


therefore an RPM of 10 for each set of blades would be the equivilant of 20 RPM with poles over stator?  no?


I may be off the deep end.  correct me if I"m wrong.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 08:08:18 PM by A6D9 »

wooferhound

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 11:04:11 PM »
I had been thinking about this before. with a shield and a wind scoop at the front. The thing would have to have a tail and rotate into the wind.



« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 11:04:11 PM by wooferhound »

hvirtane

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2006, 01:24:52 AM »
"a wind scoop at the front"


That would work in principle with one savonius or with other types of vawt, too. I've thought about this many times. Anybody has tried, how much it does have the desired effect?


- Hannu

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 01:24:52 AM by hvirtane »

wooferhound

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2006, 06:24:31 AM »
I also liked this idea posted by Electric Ed . . .





This was posted in this thread . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/6/17/73839/3388

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 06:24:31 AM by wooferhound »

hgp

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2006, 11:12:30 AM »
V-man dont be apologetic sometimes a bad idea leeds to something usefull like Woofers design which has merit but has problems.If You take away the drag side there is a danger of overspeed in high winds as does the design by Electric Ed.

Herman
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 11:12:30 AM by hgp »

vawtman

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2006, 03:16:09 PM »




 Thanks for the ideas rp


 Heres a drawing i made this spring of a combo sav darrius but they would both be going the same way in this case.


 The thinking was that the sav and darrius work together


 What do you think of the gilopy?

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 03:16:09 PM by vawtman »

vawtman

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2006, 05:04:19 PM »
Darren the problem is that the poles on the rotors need to stay alligned if you rotate one in opposite directions of the other theyll fight each other.


I originally thought it would work for some reason but ungrounded is right.Yes you would speed the mags that was the idea.But not a good one.


If it wasnt for this great sight i probably would have tried it but wouldnt have anything to spin it with.:}{

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 05:04:19 PM by vawtman »

vawtman

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2006, 05:30:17 PM »
Herman if you take away the drag side with those types they wont overspeed they may even go faster.Sav styles cant overspeed.


 Thanks for the uplift.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 05:30:17 PM by vawtman »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2006, 06:18:10 PM »
IMHO the alleged drag losses on the upwind side of the Savonius are overrated - especially with blade profiles like those of the Sandia design.  The curvature of the blade provides lift for a significant part of its upwind travel - until the trailing edge is nearly pointed downwind.  By that point the front of the blade is directing significant amounts of additional air into the the downwind blade, giving it a boost that compensates for much of the upwind blade's drag.


(If you look at the sandia savonius efficiency numbers and compare them to that of a darrieus (or the corrected version of that popular efficiency vs. TSR graph) you'll find that the sandia savonius is approaching the efficiency of a darrieus and is significantly above the calculations based on losing a third of the power to upwind drag.)


While a shroud might do a better job of eliminting the drag, it's a complication and if not properly designed it may also lose more by interfering with the upwind blade's direction of wind into the downwind blade than it gains by shadowing the upwind blade.


Not to say you can't do better using a shroud.  But you'll have to redesign the rotor in tandem, discarding the optimization research results for unshrouded rotors.


I'm inclined to believe that, engineering-wise, it's better to stick with the KISS principle and compensate for any inefficiencies in an unshrouded Savonius rotor by just making it a tad bigger.  (Moderate differences in efficiency aren't particularly significant when the fuel is free.)

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 06:18:10 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 06:23:23 PM »
wofferhound:


I'd remove the indentations on the backside.


I'd also make the scoop wider at the rear than at the front (because the air must be going slower when it leaves the rotor if energy has been pulled from it) and make the sides flare smoothly.  The added cross-section of the scoop would help by creating a low-pressure area behind the scoop to help suck air out of the rotors.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 06:23:23 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

vawtman

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2006, 07:17:00 PM »
Well said and you wouldnt need to direct the turbine into the wind.


 With a shroud the upwind blades make wind.Wouldnt they?Big time drag

« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 07:17:00 PM by vawtman »

jimjjnn

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 07:18:18 AM »
What would you get if the magnets on one disk were all North and the magnets on the 2nd disk were all South?

I'm probably missing a lot here. Kind of a dumb thought on my part
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 07:18:18 AM by jimjjnn »

elvin1949

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Re: Counter Rotating Vawts
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2006, 03:07:08 AM »
RP

 After reading this whole thread,I have decided

that nobody heard you.

 Your thought's seem to me to be the only practical

way to use a counter rotating vawt effectivly.


later

elvin

« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 03:07:08 AM by elvin1949 »