Author Topic: Boost Converter in Low Winds  (Read 4560 times)

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kitestrings

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Boost Converter in Low Winds
« on: January 31, 2007, 02:39:35 AM »
Greetings, and thanks for the free-flow of ideas here.


I've been a closet reader for a year or two, have some back-ground in wind, and have lived off-grid with a hybrid wind-solar system since 1984.  We currently have an 80's vintage Sencenbaugh 14-1000 (1kW), and a handful of PV's.


I especially like articles that have photos.  The digital age is new to me, but my son is trying to bring me up to date - here's the S14-1000 on a 100' Rohn 25G:





Pretty well furled here:





We also have a small Rutland wind charger on the new garage/shop.  I generally don't advocate installing wind turbines on structures, but prefer to think of it as a weathervane that happens to power the overhead doors and provide a few lights.  If you look hard, you may be able to spot one of the temporary anchors that we set this fall for a 45G test tower.  We plan to keep the existing system operational while we're testing the new one, then the Scencenbaugh will come down.








It is a low voltage system that has served us well for many years, but one our growing family has outgrown.  

Earlier this summer we dismantled an 80' Rohn 45G, with a 4kW Enertech that had fallen into serious disrepair.  This will become the new tower (with some added sections):





After looking at commercially available turbines, I started researching home-built's thru this and a handful of similar sites.  My good friend, wind enthusiast, machinist/inventor extraordinaire, Neil, and I are in the design stages.


The basic design would be to take a similar approach to Dan B's 20-footer, but as Flux and others have suggested we propose to wind the alternator for a higher cut-in (or 24V spec as some have described it), and boost in low winds.  We share Samoa's (and others) concerns about heat generated in the stator and the effects long-term. Here's the proposed particulars:



  1. ' diameter, TSR ~= 6.5
  2. VDC, 20-pole alternator; battery charging
  3. 5" x 3" x .75" N42 NdFeb's


Coils: 15, 3-phase wye/star, ~24 turns, #14 ga. x 4 in-hand

Approximate line-line resistance: .2 ohms

Cut-in (without boost): 122 rpm, or ~13.4 mph


We are proposing to boost using a Zahn DC boost converter, Mdl #DC15036f-SU:


http://zahninc.com/su12.html


We would appreciate any and all input on the boost converter.  We have interacted with the manufacturer, but have limited experience (mostly at much lower power requirements).  Here's the approach we are considering:


The boost converter would be rpm/frequency controlled.  Boosting would occur from start up thru approximately 148 rpm.  At that point the converter would be bi-passed.  Reconnection, and/or the bi-pass, set point(s) could be delayed via an RC- averaging circuit to reduce cycling in variable winds.  Here's a plot of the rotor output from Alton's tool vs. projected loading:





We hope to furl at just a tad over 200 rpm.


Nothing is cast in stone, epoxy or vinyl ester.  We would appreciate any input from this group.  Much obliged for any comments offered.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 02:39:35 AM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2007, 08:40:59 PM »
Nice proposal

i like the boost converters , resonable prices too.


one question though , this has been bugging me for a while now,

how to turn off the boost ?

i understand,  at a certain RPM the boost is no longer needed, but i cant figure how to switch the power from just the alt on , and turn off the boost at the same time.


just thinking out loud here

« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 08:40:59 PM by willib »
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scottsAI

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 11:00:38 PM »
Hello kitestrings,


I assumed 36% power efficiency. My TSR table is 6 or 7.


Your numbers for TSR, cut-in wind speed look right.


At 13mph the power is 1263 watts 48v at 26amp, can't use a smaller unit.

Nothing about the units efficiency is listed? Any idea what it is? 92%.


Wind speed at 200 RPM should be around 23mph. The power is almost 7,000 watts. 9 HP.

48 volt system will have 145 amps, far beyond what 14 awg wire can handle without super serious cooling. Based on wire resistance 0.2 ohms, 145amps = 4.2kw heat. >50% loss.

You have a good idea, not sure if you can cool stator enough.


Question about how to make it switch.

I would use a normal bridge rectifier to the battery. This path is for above cut-in.

By-passing the rectifier add another bridge rectifier + boost converter.

When the voltage is low the boost converter charges the battery.

Add relay to disconnect the boost when couple MPH above cut-in.


Boost converter electrical spec manual page 7:

Output Voltage, DC: (Must be 2 Volts higher than the Input Voltage)

This concerns me, need to contact and verify if input equals output, must be no harm. OK if shuts down, don't need the boost converter! Would save a relay.


I had the same problems with a 24' design, designed using induction motor, requiring pitch control. The system was grid tied with netmetering, made system cost lower. Pitch was lower cost than the boost electronics + inverter to grid.

Your not grid tied... interesting solution.

Have fun!

Scott.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 11:00:38 PM by scottsAI »

willib

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2007, 11:23:00 PM »
Scott , he said he would furl at 20MPH.

four in hand is four strands of 14 gauge not one
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 11:23:00 PM by willib »
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maker of toys

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 11:36:31 PM »
Willib-


it might help to think of the boost circuit as the opposite of a dump-load;  you'd simply engage it while the turbine RPM is below cut-in, and when the gen can handle the load without boosting, you send a 'shutdown' signal (ttl to PWM chip?  >assumes a more-or-less switch-mode DC-DC converter topology) and the boost unit drops out.


The forgoing would most likely require two sets of rectifiers on the mill. (one for the booster, the other in the traditional role) . . . preserves the boost-converter's input-output isolation, and reduces the potential for a single-point failure of the whole system. might be wise to make both rectifier sets identical to reduce spares inventories, and allow for 'field' repairs to keep part of the system running while waiting for parts and better weather . . . <G>


other methods are possible;  physical contact switchgear has the benefit of being 'fix with a hammer' simple, but if we're going to the trouble of a boost converter in the first place, maintaining more sophisticated switchgear is probably within the builder's abilities. <G>


you'd probably want the transfer between boost and straight through to happen significantly above cut-in;  I'd choose (based strictly on a mental windtunnel experiment) the point at which the power available at system voltage from the gen alone exceeded the power available from the output of the boost converter. . . as figured from initial testing and referenced to gen RPM. (as the converter will tend to draw the gen voltage down, you'd likely have some troubles using a voltage-level to drive the switch-over behavior)


the idea of having some sort of wieghted average and hysterysis built into the controls is a good one. . . but might not be needed if you just inhibit the PWM in the converter instead of using a physical switch/relay/contactor to isolate the boost unit. (sort of a p-pwm?)

« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 11:36:31 PM by maker of toys »

scottsAI

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2007, 12:02:58 AM »
Thanks willib,


4 wire with 145 amps is better, 36a each which is fine if cooled.


Does not change conclusions; resistance = 0.2, current 145.

Stator heat is P = IIR = 145*145*0.2 = 4.2kw. When furled.

Same heat, same low efficiency.


"We hope to furl at just a tad over 200 rpm"

TSR chart shows this in MPH to be around 23, can't find where said 20MPH?

using ratios, 200rpm comes out to 21.97mph. (13.4@122 = 22@200)

Have fun!

Scott.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:02:58 AM by scottsAI »

Flux

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2007, 01:41:49 AM »
The limitation on the converter that the input volts must stay 2v below output will be  a huge problem.


Controlling from rpm may be ok, I abandoned this after my first attempt as I found that current feedback gave a far better match .


I think that having to switch the converter out when you near the direct connection voltage and having to reconnect it when the wind falls will give all the problems that I experienced on the early prototype with a wound field alternator.


The other thing to watch is the furling system, Dan relies heavily on stall regulation and the thing has been built round this factor. When you free the thing from stall operation you may find you need more alternator offset and a much lighter tail.


This is a big venture to do in one leap so proceed carefully and expect to have to change things to suit your new conditions.


My experience with a 10ft machine doesn't help you much because my furling scheme is significantly different and relatively the tail will be much lighter.


If the manufacturers of that converter are helpful, contact them and try to find out why there is that limitation on the input volts, in every other respect it looks as though it would do the job. If you can get that 2v down to a diode drop you can work round it by selecting low drop diodes to feed the converter and having ordinary ones on the main power circuit, the volt drops are of no real significance on a 48v system.


You are on the right lines and if you can solve the problem with that converter then it should work fine. They may be happy to work with you to gain a new use for their product.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 01:41:49 AM by Flux »

kitestrings

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 07:57:11 PM »
Wow.  Thanks for all the great input.  This board has been a tremendous source of inspiration.


As I've mostly read, and not written here, I'm not sure whether to respond to individual replies, or just add a new comment.  I'll start with this & catch on I suspect...


Wilbur-


There appears to be a myriad of choices with regard to how to boost, not boost/bi-pass.  Initially I was thinking more along the 'fix-with-hammer approach' as MoToys aptly stated ;-), and there's something to be said for keeping things simple.  I'd favor an instantaneous cut-out (as winds increased), but delayed return to 'boost-mode' to allow for variable, lighter winds if it can be done reliably.


I like that nothing substantively changes on the tower.  I like the concept of the fail-safe mode being essentially that you have a unit that cut-ins at a higher windspeed, and yes, sacrifices some low-wind performance, but otherwise is functional at least in higher winds.


I have some better questions for the manuf'r based on these responses - and he's been very helpful.  One we discussed early that I like, was to switch in at low winds as a step up converter, and feed the attentuated voltage to pin 11, with the most powerful point prior to used as a scaling source.


MoToys- Dual rectifiers.  Some things to ponder here.  Thanks.


Scott-


Thanks for the response.  Wow, 24' that's huge.  Pic's?


Yes, I meant 4 in-hand x 14#.  I estimated the wire length (from #of turns) for the efficiency, but roughly 1/4 the resistance, and half the turns of Dan's 20'r.


I have some rough modeling spreadsheets from Hugh's books, and discussions here.  I have similar number to yours except for the losses.  Here's what I came up with:


At 13 mph/122 rpm (tsr = 6.5) power is 1350.  Max input voltage was really the factor for model choice - this one is ~120VDC.  Specs are 92%eff; 7 watts no load, 95% @rated.


At ~22 mph/200 rpm: E=78.6, I=118, Pout = 5665.  RMS current is about 90 amps, so loss per phase = 824w times 3 = Ploss = 2.4 kW, but this compares to almost 6 kW @180 rpm in losses as I recall for the original stator spec.


Flux-


My existing system uses frequency to energize the alternator field.  It cuts in at about 52 hz = 175 rpm; with rated up around 450+ rpm.  It seems pretty stable, and very linear with respect to speed.  What sort of problems did you encounter?


I'll look in to the 2V input/output differential, both you & Scott commented on this.  Much thanks for your valued input.


Gotta hit the hay...


-kitestrings

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 07:57:11 PM by kitestrings »

Flux

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2007, 01:46:09 AM »
I agree with your winding resistance figures being about 1/4 of Dans and the losses will be much lower.


You quoted a figure of .2 ohm which I believe was your estimate of line resistance. I suspect Scott used this in the assumption that it was your winding resistance.


You will get higher powers for less stator heating and at lower wind speed than with direct connection. I will run your figures sometime, but you will be ok.


I assumed that you intended to run the converter as I do, with variable pulse width.


From your other replies I am wondering if you are just hoping to use it to boost the low wind end and switch it out.


This approach will be no better than star/delta switching, you will spend a lot of your time in the wrong mode and when boosting you will almost certainly be in stall.


It seems as though you can feed some form of control signal into that converter to do better than from the brief details I seen.


The slope of the power curve needs to be very gradual at cut in and an uncontrolled 2/1 boost converter will be stiff and hold you in stall. You will have trouble raising the speed for your sensor to switch the boost out and when you manage it, the speed will shoot up. You will then be very late switching back in when the wind drops,it will drive back into stall when it does come back in.


At cut in you need the pulse width to be the value needed to boost from somewhere about half volts and you will need to constantly phase back the pwm as speed rises so that the input voltage rises with prop speed to keep you from stall. As the speed reaches the main alternator cut in, your input volts will be up to battery volts and the thing will change to direct connection completely smoothly and when operating the only way you will know if you are boosting or not will be to measure the input voltage.


Unless you can get things to work this way I think you will be disappointed with the scheme. I tried various tap changing and star/delta things over the years and they give little benefit for the added complexity.


Using speed as a signal to control pwm directly doesn't easily give a good power match but it can be made near enough. I haven't tried a scheme where you track input volts instead of pwm with speed, it may well work, but I found that just feeding back a signal proportional to output current works perfectly well when you get the gain right and is far simpler.

flux

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 01:46:09 AM by Flux »

kitestrings

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2007, 08:01:59 PM »
Flux-


Thanks again for the response(s).


Of the stacks of records I've poured over here, perhaps the one that has influenced me the most to date is the `Matching the Load' threads 3/18/06.  For anyone interested it is here:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/17/185646/194


We're still looking for the best way to do - all while balancing, cost, complexity, efficiency, reliability, etc.  Several folks on here could probably build a converter from scratch.  I'm not one of them.  I'm not opposed to a more sophisticated control circuit for an off-the-self unit.  We just may need some help along the way.   Hence I'm here.  (Plus it's fun).


I should probably bang out a couple admitted biases here before I continue:



  1.  Generally I think there are a lot of efforts geared at picking up low-wind performance that in the best case isn't worth the extra effort; or worse case compromises some other design component (stator heat, I feel, is a big one).
  2.     I don't see a unit that survives a year or three as a success.  I've had two complete, identical units here and have been through numerous rebuilds (e.g. bearings, blade refinishing, etc.) over the years.  It has to go up, and work, with a minimal amount of maintenance.
  3.  Lastly, (and unrelated to this discussion) there's not much ingenuity that will make up for a good wind site, and getting the thing up in the air.


I have considered boosting only in low winds.  Not uncontrolled.  I think I understand the loading issue.  I was envisioning a two-slope line where the scaling of the converter roughly matched the available power in low winds; tracking the steeper line past the boost zone.  When the winds are variable, I think there is something to be said for allowing the rotor to respond largely unloaded to lighter winds, just to maintain rpm.  Some of the earlier machines had visible (and audible) problems with the resistance of cogging or flux build-up.  Not unlike star/delta, but all taking place on the ground, and with the right loading, and hystersis, seemingly workable.


I'm not sure if my assumptions are correct, but here's what I'd originally looked at based on the Zahn converter:





I'm intrigued by the variable pulse width concept that you and MoToys described, but I would need help with control circuit design.  Is there a schematic or something you can point us to?


You prompted one last question with regard to frequency vs. current sensing for control.  Is there any issue with the SOC of the battery bank, and or load(s) affecting the current?  With frequency you have in effect a tachometer - independent of the bank (as say voltage might be affected).  I could envision the bank nearing full charge might reduce the current flow.  Or, conversely heavy instantaneous loading could increase the apparent current.


-kitestrings

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:01:59 PM by kitestrings »

kitestrings

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Once more...
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 08:26:06 PM »
Low Wind Boost                   

DC Converter - Zahn #15036               

        Vin    Iin    eff    Vout    Iout    Pout

Zahn ex:    38    26    0.92    72    12.624    908.96


rpm            61    71    81    92    102

Vwindgen(v)no15036    24.0    27.9    31.9    36.2    40.1

Vwindgen(v)with15036    0.1    14.3    25.0    33.0    39.8

Iwindgen(a)        0.1    8.4    14.7    19.4    23.3

Vpin11(v)        0.0    1.5    2.6    3.5    4.2

15036currentlimit(a)    0.1    8.4    14.7    19.4    23.3

Pinto15036(w)        0    120    368    641    928

Poutfrom15036(w)    0    114    350    609    881

Ppossibel(w)        1    234    469    702    936

Pnotgotten(w)        1    120    119    93    54


            converter bi-pass



  1.     122    132    143    148   
  2. 1    48.0    51.9    56.3    58.2   
  3. 2    49.8    53.7    56.6    58.2   
  4. 5    29.3    31.6    33.3    34.2   
  5. 8    5.3    5.7    6.0    6.2   
  6. 5    29.3    31.6    33.3    34.2   
  7.     1457    1695    1883    1989   
  8.     1384    1611    1789    1889   
  9.     1404    1637    1872    1989   
  10.     20    27    83    99   


« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:26:06 PM by kitestrings »

willib

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2007, 09:02:34 PM »
KStrings , you cant use variable PWM , unless you can control the controller .

Variable PWM gets to the heart of the controller , and is probably fixed with your off the shelf unit?

i point you to some posts on varible PWM.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/28/42231/301


and to a lesser extent , below this was an earlier post than the one above and the power out that i was getting was less.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/11/26/22831/362

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 09:02:34 PM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 02:08:59 AM »
Lots of interesting points.


If you are in a good wind area then I tend to agree with your comments about low winds.


If wind is your only source of power then it is tempting to try and extract something on days with very low wind if they occur for a significant number of days but you are right the power available is very limited. With a 20 ft machine it makes reasonable sense to try and extract 100W or so if it occurs all day.


With smaller machines then it is a personal choice whether it is worth extracting 10W if it halves the machine output in a 20 mph wind.


Like me, you have grown up with machines that don't have the possibility of extracting power from those light winds and if you can get by without then you are very justified to adapt the machine to produce more efficiently in higher winds. The deciding factor eventually will probably whether you can actually use the higher output, the normal factor being fully charged batteries. If you plan your big loads for these times or want heat then ok.


If your main concern is reducing stator heating then again you do much better by steering clear of the very low cut in speed. If you furl at the same top end speed you can have less than 1/4 the stator heating.


If you keep stator heat down and you can solve the neo corrosion problem there is no reason why a machine shouldn't last many years .


Now having established that, anything you can do to still produce something in low winds is still worthwhile even though it may not be very efficient or elegant.


You can start simple and do something better later when you feel confident.


As you say, 2 slopes is a perfectly good enough approximation, the difficult bit being the low slope in low winds. Just used as a voltage changer, your converter will be very stiff and the slope will be near vertical and that is where you have trouble. Without electronic intervention low slope associated with low efficiency.


I tried a 2/1 tap change on a machine with just over an 8ft prop, the alternator was not desperately efficient so it would not be as bad a case as with your large alternator and efficient boost converter.


It held the blades fairly well stalled in the low wind setting but the speed did rise sufficiently to allow a speed sensor to change over to the high wind setting and it then speeded up and took over in high speed mode reasonably well.


The wind needed to drop to a very low speed to let it change back to the other mode and it was difficult to prevent it running unloaded for significant periods just at cut in for the high wind mode.


When it changed back there was a violent drop in speed with a sudden surge of current as the kinetic energy was dissipated and then it settled back into stall mode.


I am sure things could have been improved with a bit of resistance added in the low wind mode to reduce the slope and perhaps you could do the same to make something you consider good enough. I didn't carry on with trying to make it work as I already had far better ideas.


The state of charge of the battery does alter the optimum speed settings but probably not to the point that would make it unworkable. If you have a site with high wind days and low wind days then it may work fairly well. Conditions here are such that there are few occasions where the wind is sufficiently steady for it to want to be in one mode for long enough to be reasonably happy.


I am not sure if that converter could be run with external control of pwm, it seemed from the spec that it can at least be programmed for various inputs although you may not have direct access to the pwm.


The big problem is that there is no other application that needs a device to do this job and there is nothing readily available.


I can give you schematics to do the job but I am not in a position to do the layout and design work of the converter, these things are basically simple but are highly critical on layout and without an exact design to copy you may not have a lot of luck.


It is really a project for someone with a good grounding in power electronic converters.


I will have a look at a converter that I played with some months ago and see if it could be simplified to a form that could be copied.


You will find that with the fast winding and no converter you may pick up some power below 10 mph and although you will not be on peak production until about 12 mph, you should do quite well above 10mph.


A converter to handle the power from 6 to 10 mph should be fairly easy to manage.


If you were at 24V I think my test set up would do it, but the layout may need improving or higher voltage devices used to be sure of the higher voltage.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 02:08:59 AM by Flux »

rgudgel

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 11:13:58 PM »
More thoughts on this. I am not a wind expert by any degree although I know quite a few in the industry. I am a power electronics engineer. I have had numerous discussions with leading experts in the industry about the lack of low wind speed performance. The consensus is usually the same. There just isn't much power available at low wind speeds. You could design a buck/boost converter that would do both functions, but you would need to have a positive ground. This gets very messy and isn't worth the headaches that it would cause. You could also have a separate boost and separate buck converter as discussed here, but it would be very expensive to recoup that small amount of power available at low speeds. Being an engineer that doesn't like being told "you can't do that", I have been giving low wind speed a fair amount of thought for the last year or so. Building a separate boost converter just isn't the answer though. For the most part, modern wind turbines are designed to put out max power at about 28MPH. Anything above that usually requires furling of some sort in order to not self destruct. My first thought was why not just put larger blades on a turbine to increase low wind speed performance. The answer is that the turbine would self destruct at even moderate wind speeds. I look at the 1 million plus watt turbines and notice that they never turn fast enough to cause a problem. How is that accomplished? By dumping more power into the grid and electronically regulating the speed of the turbine. The question is how can we turn that type of idea into something that can be used for small scale wind? My brother and I have been working on what will be the industies first MPPT for wind. Once this controller is available, I plan on investigating how to improve low wind performance. We should be able to tightly controll the speed of the wind turbine and therefore take advantge of larger or additional blades or both. Our diversion load is not connected to the battery bank as is presently done with all battery charging controllers. Our load is connected across the output of the wind turbine. There is a pretty sophisticated controller behind the diversion section of this system as well as the MPPT controller to charge the batteries. This controller will actually allow many turbines to double their output power without increasing any heat. The principal will be similar to the way boB did the MX60 for solar, let the output voltage fly up much higher than the batteries.

Well, talk is cheap, it's back to work now on the Classic.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:13:58 PM by rgudgel »

commanda

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2007, 12:43:24 AM »
Wish I had more time to pursue this. Some thoughts in my diary.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/12/14840/1315


I really think you're better off going straight to a high voltage system with a buck converter.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:43:24 AM by commanda »

Flux

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Re: Boost Converter in Low Winds
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2007, 05:55:40 AM »
Robin

You are absolutely right about this, but for many they have no choice but to extract power from the low wind if it is their only source of power. If you are selling a turbine then it is a commercial disaster to compromise its high wind performance to extract a few watts below 10 mph.


Many here are so desperate for those few watts in low winds that they compromise the output in winds above 12 mph and seriously overload the stators to get it. So much so that few are even prepared to try to do anything that gives the best of both worlds.


Most resort to much larger blades to get the power they need in low winds and then the high end power is generally something of an embarrassment and as long as it can be controlled then they really don't bother about what they could get in those winds.


A commercial manufacturer can't produce a large machine of that type as a cost effective device and if he could, it would not sell with low high wind power output.


The mppt scheme you refer to does go as far as possible to obtaining the best performance over the whole speed range and is a dramatic improvement over conventional matching and will double the power out in the higher winds without compromising the low end. Surprisingly there is a considerable improvement even in the range of 10 to 15 mph where the normal things are considered to be reasonably good.


The big snag is that the low wind performance is determined almost entirely by blade size. To raise low wind output you need a bigger machine and it will already likely produce enough in high winds so the extra gained by the mppt will cause a bigger dumping problem. For those who can usefully use that extra power on windy days then it is a real advantage.


To achieve a decent efficiency with mppt the alternator efficiency has to be high and this will make the alternator more costly for a given blade size.


The added cost of the alternator and mppt control is not going to have many followers on this board, but commercial manufacturers may welcome a device that enables them to quote higher outputs from the same size machine and maintain a good low end performance.


The boost converter is a poor man's compromise and if well implemented gives many of the advantages of true mppt with little additional cost. The only thing it doesn't effectively do is reduce the effects of line resistance with increasing output.


Neglecting the effect of line resistance ( which you can solve with thick and costly wire) you can achieve an alternator efficiency of considerably over 70% when tracking the wind speed from about 12 to 24 mph and even in boost mode with the converter loss you can still keep at about 70% with far better wind curve tracking than direct connection. The advantages are a cheap and simple converter and no loss of performance on most days even if the converter goes bang.


Keep up the good work on mppt using buck technology, that is the cure for line loss and gives the best possible results, but I think your main market may not be people here who don't seem to want it unless the cost can be negligible.


I don't think there is a serious market for you to commercially sell a boost converter as the power gained as you said is very small, but I have used them for years and when I see all the trouble with heated stators i really think many are paying a high price for a few watts at 7 mph and if they did some long term energy metering they would find that they would do better to cut in at a higher speed if they are not going to depart from direct connection.


I live in an area where those commercial machines would see their rated figures at 28mph about 3 days a year, so their ratings are good for commercial sales but no real use for power production.


My 10ft machine with boost cuts in at just about 6 mph, changes off the converter at about 12 mph and furls when it produces 1500W. This limit is set because of the long cable run and the fact that we don't want the noise of it running much over 350 rpm.


It is a drum type machine and probably better cooled than a axial but stator heating would start to be an issue if we let it run up to about 2kW continuous and that would still occur below the 28 mph I suspect ( never measured it).


As I always say, no simple solution, some want to keep it simple, some want every gismo available. Most are happy to directly load the thing even if it reduces maximum output( but even then they seem to want that top end power they say they aren't worried about even if it means running class F stators above class H)


Flux


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« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 05:55:40 AM by Flux »

kitestrings

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Re: poorman's compromise
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2007, 07:40:10 PM »




It's fairly windy here tonight; and about 5F below.  I snapped a meter (trms) on the Scencenbaugh and took a few peak reads.  I'm on the generator side of the rectifier, but it is doing 800 watts at 130 hz, or (130 * 120 / 12 poles / 3 ,it has a 3:1 gearbox = ) 430 rpm.  The Rutland is  w h i n i n g  out about 2-4 amps @12VDC.  If everyday were like this, and the Scencenbaugh wasn't nearing 30 years old there'd be no problem - except for the cold of course.


Commanda, Wilbur- thanks for the links.  I'd seen two of the three.  Would enjoy seeing any updates that you have.


Robin- we're anxiously awaiting MPPT for wind.


Flux- Your latest comments - about mid-thru re:


"...poorman's compromise..., and, "Neglecting the effect of line resistance..."


- capture what I seem keep coming back to.  I still like that not all of the power needs to go thru a boost-only design, and then if the device gets stung in a near-by lightning surge - you're down.  ~70% would be a big improvement, and the reduced heat has got to add longevity.  I'll go back to Dave Zahn to see what his thoughts are.


With regard to using the winds at higher windspeeds...


If you've lived off-grid, well, it's a bit like folks who win the lottery and can't seem to spend it all (and stay out of rehab) - they just lack creativity.  Right now we do laundry, and a bit more shop work on windy days, but surplus energy... wow, could heat water, air, compress air, and/or charge the 2nd battery for the not-yet-available plug-in hybrid vehicle, ...(you get the idea).


I'd like to thank everyone who contributed responses to this post.  It was a nice welcome on my first post, and you've given us a great deal to consider.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 07:40:10 PM by kitestrings »

willib

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Re: poorman's compromise
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2007, 09:38:07 PM »
cycles per second * 60 seconds per min = cycles per min.


in your case there are 12 poles per revolution , but in one complete cycle two poles must pass by a single coil or phase.

therefore

cycles per min * 2poles per cycle * one rev per 12 poles ;cycles and poles cancel out and the result is Rev per Min.


and 2/total number of poles = 1/half the number of poles


so HZ to RPM is


HZ * 60 / half the number of poles = RPM.


after a few minutes i realized it comes out the same , but i think my formula is easier to remember.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 09:38:07 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

willib

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Re: poorman's compromise
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 11:44:57 PM »
although,

HZ is independent of rotor size, which may give a better indication of coil to magnet effectiveness.

because a large rotor , for me thats 10.8" dia., doing 300 RPM ,is 60 hz ,

while a smaller machine , say 7.75"dia at 300 rpm is only 40hz..

same rpm , but the magnets are passing by the coils 1.5 times faster in the larger machine.

7/8" dia magnets in both cases.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 11:44:57 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)