Author Topic: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate  (Read 3711 times)

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Murlin

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ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« on: February 22, 2007, 07:48:34 PM »
I have been reading alot about the use of ATH in the starors that alot of you guys are making.


Just wanted to inquire as to how that was working out.


I have just about got all the materials for my Jenny gathered up and was lacking the aggregate for the epoxy.


The epoxy I have chosen is not as cheap as vinyl ester, but I feel it will be worth the additional cost.  


It is about $100 a gal vs 440 for the vinyl ester.


Here are the specs if anyone is interested.


CURED PROPERTIES

Compressive Strength (ASTM D-695 - 7 days) 15,000 p.s.i.

Flexural Strength (ASTM D-790 - 7 days) 13,500 p.s.i.

Tensile Strength (ASTM D-638 - 7 days) 8,000 p.s.i.

Tensile elongation (ASTM D-638 - 7 days) >2.8%

Shore D Hardness 85

Adhesion ASTM D 4541 Concrete Failure

Operating Temperature  Wet: 300oF

Dry: 400oF


PH Range 1 to 13.5


As always, thanks for your time.


Murlin

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 07:48:34 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 03:50:22 PM »
Murlin,

I'm sorry to hear that you have decided to cast your stator in resin. I think that could be a real mistake considering the winds you say you have and the size of the machine you are building.


In my opinion, casting a stator for a machine over 8-10' is asking for trouble unless the alternator is overbuilt and run far below it's potential.


Yes, adding a thermally conductive filler can help but is only a bandaid with a questionable degree of benefit.


See the following for further discussion on this topic.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/11/26/17291/409

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 03:50:22 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 04:26:42 PM »
The epoxy I am using, as far as I know has never been used on casting a windmill stator.  It is a realitvly new product.


The stator would have to get to 400 degrees before structural integrity was compromized.


Breakdown occurs on all other epoxies at 200 degrees, including vinyl ester  according to the chemical engineers I have talked to.   Even though the specs say they will withstand temps of 320 - 400 degrees, the epoxy gets softer, and if used as a structural element it gets weaker.


The epoxy that I will be using will not even flinch at 300 degrees F.


And will only loose a slight mechanical properties at 400.  Above 400 degrees it will start to get soft and that is where the danger lies.  If the stator gets that hot, it's a goner no matter whether it is cast or not.


I will be using forced air to cool the stator.  I will also machine groves about an inch apart and the same thickness as the body of the stator, all around the outside and inside of the stator body I can guarantee they will pull heat out of main bulk of where the copper is.


The center of the coils will have several thin standing cooling ribs instead of a thru hole. Also there will be a fastener at every coil location to keep any warpage to a minimum.


My mold will have an o ring around the parameter and I will pull a vacume on the casting to make sure the bubbles are out and the small cooling ribs get filled up with epoxy.


My querry was to find out if the ATH had any adverse affects on the machines already using this filler in their stators.


It sounded like a good aggragate to increase thermal conductivity of the epoxy.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 04:26:42 PM by Murlin »

vawtman

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 05:26:47 PM »
Murlin i think you might be missing something here.Most wire insulation will breakdown about 200 degrees.So what good would it be to have a stator built with this? I thought you were using variable pitch.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 05:26:47 PM by vawtman »

DanG

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 10:33:47 PM »
Wire insulation ratings usually are spec'd in degrees Celcius; 105C, 130C, 155C, 180C, 200C and 240C are off-the-shelf classes...


I've been thinking about a dual rotor axial for a diesel and on cooling the stator...


Since the thermal conductivity of epoxies is pretty low I don't think I'd count on cuts or channels to serve as cooling fins much - but another passive method that might be easy is to cast or notch fairly shallow V shaped rings "VVVVVVVVV" that can double or triple the surface area across the face of the stator; also remember 3rds of cooling, 33% by conduction, 33% by convection, and 33% by radiation so the rings could also be acting as a fresnel lense to help the IR radiation exit from under the rotor instead of being reflected straight back at the stator, the notches (||||-||||) would just have more surface area 'shining' toward outer circumference...


I would like to see someone try the lost-wax method on coils that are then cast into resin and heated to release the wax so it allows air cooling over the inner-outer non-generating ends of the coils - a high solids paint applied to protect from moisture and you've got cooler coils... A cold coil dipped into hot wax would not allow the wax to wick into the windings much, a vacuum cast epoxy would have to be very low viscosity to permeate the entire wax-coated coil end...

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:33:47 PM by DanG »

rossw

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 11:28:07 PM »
Just did a quick search for epoxys with reasonable (to me) characteristics, and found

fairly quickly, GSP 1345 which claims very good dilectric properties AND low thermal resistance - just what you want in this case.


"Thermally conductive excellent adhesion and impact resistance" with a 60 minute gel time. They don't actually state what the thermal resistance is though :(


It might be that a better choice of epoxy, while undoubtedly more expensive, might work out much cheaper in the long run - less mucking about, less points of failure, the ability to cool not only the ends of the coils, but also the much hotter "working" parts more efficiently etc.


Just my 2c worth.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 11:28:07 PM by rossw »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 05:42:44 AM »


"Most wire insulation will breakdown about 200 degrees"


That would be 200 C.  All my temp refs were in F.  The chemical engineers I talked to about epoxies said that most epoxies start to become pliable at 200 F.

This new epoxy will stay rigid way past 320 F.


"So what good would it be to have a stator built with this?"


It is just some added protection that will guard against any warpage in case there is a heat buildup in the stator due to whatever reason. The stator is not suppose to get hot at all.  But things happen and I want every chance of success.


Another reason would be that closer air gap might be able to be used.  It is all an experiment anyways.


" I thought you were using variable pitch."


I am....


Murlin

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 05:42:44 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 06:24:08 AM »
"Since the thermal conductivity of epoxies is pretty low I don't think I'd count on cuts or channels to serve as cooling fins much"


I disagree.


Any material will cool faster if it is thinner.


Take a piece of plastic and an laser gun that measures temp.


Put a piece of plastic 5/8" thick, and one that is 1/8" thick of the same size in the oven and hold it at 150 F degrees for an hour. Take them out of the oven and lay them down on the countertop.


Set a fan to blow on the plastic, or not it doesnt matter, but with forced air the difference in thermal drop will be more noticable.


Now check the temp of each piece, alternating back and forth every second or two and observe the temp.


Although I have not done this experiment, I can be quite confident that the thicker piece of plastic will retain heat longer than the thinner one.

It seems to me that the laws of physics would make it so.....


So the laws of physics should apply here.  Most people know that the hot will move to cold, not vice versa.  This is how air conditioners work by using air to exchange the heat.


So if hot moves to cold, the thin fins will be of a slightly cooler temp and also be cooling at a greater factor than the thicker mass. amd since the fins will run around the outer and inner circumfrence of the coils, it stands to reason that heat will move to the cooler part of the mass.


"A cold coil dipped into hot wax would not allow the wax to wick into the windings much.


I thought one wanted the epoxy to do just that?  Wouldn't trapped air hold heat inside the coil?  Much like the dead air space in your attic?


I like the idea of the of the V rings.


They could not be very tall, but wouldn't need to be to increase surface area.


The stator could be .6" thick with the v's standing up .015" on each side.


The epoxy I have chosen will have good strength at .05", the thinnist area of the stator across the coils.  This area on the stator is the achelles heal of the entire system.


This area on the stator, when heated, will expand the most and is likely to be the first point of contact with the magnet rotors.


The strength of this new epoxy is almost double that of vinyl ester.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 06:24:08 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 07:09:33 AM »
DanG


That is a very interesting thing you said about the lost wax.


It so happens, I make jewelry on small tabletop CNC mills and we have a vacume casting unit that will handle a 9" flask, all requiring lost wax.  so I understand the process of molds.


Are you suggesting that you want to seal off the ends of the coils with wax to keep those areas exposed to the air?


That is a doable scenerio for me.  And actually, is a very good Idea....


CLUTCH!!!!


Let me think on how I am going to do that...


Thanks a bunch, you da man!!


PS


I really would like to hear some feedback on the ATH.  is there any data yet or has there not been enough experimenting done?


I can also use silica for aggregate and it will also transfer heat.


I have read that talc was also used as an aggregate.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 07:09:33 AM by Murlin »

vawtman

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 02:40:00 PM »
Murlin im using hdpe for my stator had to drill slots for the windings but easy to work with.I believe rated for 200 C.The alumina thing is the filler right?What is the Epoxy you plan to use with those figures?


 Did i miss something has usual?


 Sorry about the C F mixup

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 02:40:00 PM by vawtman »

vawtman

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 03:50:38 PM »
Should be 120 C not 200 Whoops
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 03:50:38 PM by vawtman »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 03:54:52 PM »
The alumina thing is the filler right?


Yes.


Here is a like to the epoxy I bought.


http://epoxy.com/641lv.htm

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 03:54:52 PM by Murlin »

vawtman

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 05:44:59 PM »
Murlin take this with a grain of salt but heres my thoughts.


 The coating is designed to protect steel/concrete from heat.Why its black is weird,But must be highly reflective(high gloss)


 Just wondering if the heat is generated within the stator(coils)Hmmm


 Not sure

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 05:44:59 PM by vawtman »

DanG

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2007, 11:27:47 PM »
Even talc added a filler will increase the strength of resins; w/o fillers they have problems holding up over time...


Talking cooling of a hot running stator next to a long-running diesel engine; exploring passive cooling tricks...


Scoop didnt like the ASCII art I tried - the fresnel effect was to appear as this --> ~//|_|\.


"Any material will cool faster if it is thinner." - to transfer heat from a solid to a gas there has to be a large temperature differential to get the energy to push through the media into air, I've seen where a 40°F difference is the beginning where appreciable heat shedding starts to occur; the thin sections will not conduct heat quick enough for core temps to reach past the first couple of millimeters. A textured surface with resins may be the best, radiative and convection wise - and don't forget conduction heat shedding, more mount points that can sink away heat is also good.


"A cold coil dipped into hot wax would not allow the wax to wick into the windings much." - I would try to keep the wax from permeating the coil center, the best results would be to chip and peel the wax away instead of melting it away, so dipping a cold coil would harden wax on contact and allow it to peel away easier.. A problem could be capillary wicking of the epoxy under the wax and welding the windings together under the wax, depends on viscosity of your epoxy and how long you let it sit before pouring into the mold.


Are you suggesting that you want to seal off the ends of the coils with wax to keep those areas exposed to the air? - and after the 7-day cure of your epoxy hopefully the wax will remain unchanged and you can chip or cut it out of the pour - and then one could open up the windings alightly to promote each loop receiving air contact. I certainly would test compatibility before risking pounds of copper to a sloppy wax diluted epoxy.


"I can also use silica for aggregate and it will also transfer heat." - glass is an insulator - it holds heat very well. Glass is essentially silica sand so silica would also be an insulator. I've investigated using DuPont "Florida Zircon Sand" sand-blasting compound as a filler, it has a fairly high density and hardness and excellent thermal conductivity. Zirconium isn't magnetic above -300F either so I bet its no/low interference from flux lines. The DuPont product is rounded edges and washed to be dust free, I've used other exotic Dupont sandblasting compounds and $12 for 40# isn't spendy at all. Garnet sands may be another choice;


Next Monday I will check the shop I bought my supplies from for quanity and pricing - heck if I find a good match maybe I will put some up on the FL classified here!

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 11:27:47 PM by DanG »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2007, 08:16:57 AM »
DanG..don't let the 7 day full cure fool ya.


"I certainly would test compatibility before risking pounds of copper to a sloppy wax diluted epoxy."


The epoxy will loose all its viscosity witthin an hour.  The pot life is 40 min.


It is not tacky in 12 hrs.


And as far as the tech says, a wax release agent will work best in the mold and not contaminate the epoxy at all. the way I see it, contamination is not even an issue.

The wax used in lost wax castings is not the same as a wax candle.  there are many types to use and I would probably use the one that will melt off at the lowest temp.


I have built plastic injection, rubber compression, alu and zinc die cast molds...I have about 35 years experience in the molding industry and now am doing the lost wax as a hobby.  So I completely understand the processes involved.


This is what I had in mind to impliment your idea.


I will wind the coils, across the 2 long legs in the middle I will put a zip tie on each side to hold the coil together and not contaminate the surface with finger oils, tape, glues and such to keep the surface as clean as possible.


Then I could build a jig where I could clamp all the coils down in a strait line and they would be in the same liniar plane.  The clamps would run across the middle of the coils.  Basicly, 2 strips of wood with a screw running thru the center of each coil to hold them all in place.


Imagine making Kool-aid Ice pops with the sticks.


You could let one end of all the coils sit in little molds that would be the slightly ticker than the thickness of the stator body.(.01").  A compression would keep flash seepage to a min.  Now you could do a less precision approach, where the wax placement would not be as critical and just go ahead and let the epoxy flash across the wax and cut off that flash before the bake.  But a slip with the grinder would not be good.


Once you had molded wax squares on each end of the coils, you would then take the coils and place them the way they will sit in the mold.  You could cut off the zip ties and then have a nice clean area for the epoxy to bond to across the centers of the coils.  If you made your mold right(a 2 piece with the center plug out) you could just set the coils directly in the mold and solder them without your torch damaging the mold.  Once you soldered and heat shrinked all the areas that need be, put in the plug and cast the stator.


I would want the coils to be completly saturated on the end with wax(instead of just being coated) as so no epoxy at all could whick its way into the center areas of the coil. This is why you would just want to bake out the wax.  if you had too you could take it out of the oven and spin it to evac any residual way by centerfug..after that you would remove any epoxy flash that needs to be removed with a grinder.


The end result of the moulded stator would be a dough nut of epoxy the same size as the magnet path, with mounting legs 1" to 1 1/2" wide, comming up from the areas in between the coils.


It would look like a sprocket or gear.  Both ends of the coils would be totally exposed to the air.


With the use of an aggragate, some fiberglass on the top and bottom of the mold surfaces same as before, and an epoxy that is twice as strong and will withstand heat twice as good as vinyl ester, the sprocket design should be just as strong as what is being used now.


After all it will have an attach point at every coil.


Anyways, all of this was just my first knee jerk reaction.


I am still contemplating the whole thing...

« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 08:16:57 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: ATH - Alumina Trihydrate
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2007, 01:01:41 PM »
Well, I guess I will go ahead and use the ATH...no one has replied back for or against it. I could swear by the dates of previous posts that it has been a year or so since this product was tested.


However I do not see its use recomended in the front page of Otherpower's 20' ft stator construction.


It would have been nice to hear a thumbs up from someone who already has a stator up and running with this aggregate, and has not had any unforseen problems.


Murlin

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 01:01:41 PM by Murlin »