Author Topic: brainstorming (Read 4708 times)

willib · « **on:** May 03, 2007, 06:21:15 PM »

i found out that the association started using a water softener system

since i have no control of the water that through my faucet , been thinking about distilling the water for drinking and cooking with the heat from the attic.

i have the use of 12V fans , lots of them , and a unlimited way to power them ,

i will be using the excergen and the supercaps to charge the batteries.

simple would be better than complex , but i'm open to ideas

willib · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2007, 12:37:55 PM »

i also have two fish tanks one is 10 gal. the other one is thirty , no fish though.

willib · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2007, 12:59:50 PM »

here is what i had in mind

use a fish tank to hold the water to be distilled

make a box to fit ontop of the fishtank

use the fans to blow the hot air in the attic around the tank

use fans inside the aparatus to circlate the evaporated water

use fans to suck cold air from the floor below, and pass this air through tubes to condense the moisture

Bruce S · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2007, 02:26:44 PM »

willib;

Read and re-read this.

From a distiller's point of view.

First I distill Alky so heating levels are just a little bit lower but the idea is still <- No pun intended:-) the same.

In order for you to actually distill water and make it safe to drink, you'll need to get the water up to 212F this of course is around the boiling point.

At this point water begins turning to vapor, this vapor is what you want to capture and it's mostly pure. Would be better to go the route of a refulx type , but a simple is still good.

With the way you're wanting to do by using attic heat, cold be good to pre-heat the water. Means bringing water up from whatever temp you can heat transfer from the heated air and attic to 212F, may not be necessary though.

Another way , and with your building abilities probaly easier too. Make a solar heater using high-temp glass and copper tubing. Using a temp gauge, run the water in the bottom and let the water get hot enough to come out of the top either as steam of VERY hot water, this will go along way to getting the water distilled.

This way is done all over the world and if I could keep the temp down to a better control for Alky I would be doing it too.

So far, my crude attempts have always been way too high and I ended up with more water in the first run than my normal way of using solar assisited imerssion fish tank heater.

Come to think of it this may be another way for you to try.

Since you have that cool supper Cap 12V thingy , you could run a small 150watt inverter with a fish tank heater plugged into it ( the Wally world kind that cost ~$26.00) turn it up to 100C or as close as possible. let it get to the point of making water vapor and capture that using clear tubing make a dip in the middle of the tubing so no air backup into the line and let the water vapor condense into another water container. Once your super Caps begin to get low, start charging them back up. And continue.:-)

I currently use the HF panels to charge a pretty large bank of Sub-C battery packs the are connected to a small inverter to run my imerssion heater for just this type of making my first run of Alky, however my settings are much lower (48C) and is much easier to obtain that on a 20L run.

Hope this helps

Question, what type of softner are they using ?

Bruce S

Off grid in Tonopah · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2007, 04:14:44 PM »

Hey Willib

    First let me start this with I have no practical experience in water distillation except some operations in the Navy on large units. But I see it done on a large scale at the power plant I work at every day.

    If I were trying to do distillation at low temps as Bruce said you need to boil the water , evaporation just won't do it. To do this you need to do this under a vacuum. You can get water to boil at room temp if you pull the pressure down enough. And once you remove the air and if your system is tight it's not to hard to keep it down. There's no reason to go to 212 unless you need to sterilize the water and if it's coming out of the tap as potable and your system is clean you should be OK from that stand point. Get a saturated vapor chart from the internet and find a temp that you can operate on heat from the attic at and it will give you a corresponding pressure for that temp. Small vacuum pump and a sealed condenser/boiler needs to be built but that's really no big deal. As Bruce stated you should go with a reflux set up and there's a lot on the internet on these also. If you have access to a solar DHW panel these can make water hot enough to peel the meat off your hand with slow flow thru them. Sounds like a cool project. I've kicked around trying to build a solar powered alcohol still for generator fuel for some time and have many rambling ideas on different designs, one thing we have here in AZ is plenty of sun.

    Ocean rescue rafts have solar stills they tow behind them for making fresh water on a small scale you might get some ideas from them if you can find information on them on line. Keep us posted.

Bob

willib · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:18:49 PM »

ok read it three times:)

first off , i'm not sure what type of water softener they use .

i think it is some type of salt, he didnt say what type it was at the meeting

anyway back to fresh water ..ya think direct solar is the way to go , if i could make a window unit and put it between the storm windows and the inside windows that woud be cool ,but my western exposure to direct sunlight only starts at 3:30 PM and lasts till dusk. no southern windows

whereas the attic is hot all day.

just had a idea , i could heat the water , in the attic all day and collect it at night, when it cools down up there?

willib · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:34:11 PM »

i like the immersion heater idea too , not surprizingly i have one , it came with the fish tank.

if i understand correctly you are getting more water out of your 'distiller' wink wink than you would like to have..and that is at 48C.. did i get that correct?

wdyasq · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:58:33 PM »

I love expurtz....

http://www.epsea.org/stills.html

While I agree boiling the solvent is the standard method, If water did not evaporate at ambient temperature there would be no rain. Because there is rain, I think the stuff shown on the link will probably work.

It may not work in New Jersey but that's probably a union problem.

Man, I sure hope congress repeals the laws of gravity this year.

Ron

willib · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:26:22 PM »

say it gets to 110 F degrees up there , i think that may be a little low.

thats 316 K acording to my handy dandy i net converter

http://www.digitaldutch.com/unitconverter/

and there are 101Kpa in one atmosghere

i hope this is the right chart

i take it that anything on the vapor , liquid boundry is boiling?

i'm not sure i can take advantage of this knowledge because , how would i get the clean liquid (water)out of the container? and wouldnt i need a sphere to hold the vacuume

nice idea though

you say that evaporation just wont do it, isnt boiling water just speeded up evaporation?its been a long time since my thermo class but i really enjoyed it

willib · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:46:59 PM »

Thanks Ron i've seen that page , i think i'm gonna go with my idea and the one on that page , if i can get the whole tank up to say 100 F it should drip sparkling clean water all night, at least until August , and it may even work then.

with a fan to circulate the water vapor it may even work a little better.

Nando · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2007, 10:12:51 PM »

Your message is sent too late, it should have been sent exactly on APRIL 1, 2007

Off grid in Tonopah · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2007, 10:19:36 PM »

No evaporation will work. It's just way friggin slow. As for getting the water out of the condenser you either run the system as a batch setup and just drain the product out after the run or you can do a continues process but you need a pump. If you read up on how they refine oil or make alcohol it's the same process you are just operating at a different press/temp. point. I'm at work right now drying nuclear fuel for dry storage using a vacuum process and I'm making ice at 80f, water will boil at 32f at 4.58 mm/hg so you just need to identify what temp you can supply and go from there. The boiler,column and condenser just need to run at the correct vacuum level and it's just like boiling water on the stove. Just at a lower temp. Power plants do this all the time, they run their condensers at a vacuum so as to extract more energy from there steam. Our low pressure turbines runs in a vacuum with steam at less than 212f running through them. I'll try to draw up something at work tonight and let you take a look at it.

Bob

willib · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2007, 10:50:32 PM »

Why .. is this too simple an idea for ye of not one diary entry

Off grid in Tonopah · « **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2007, 11:23:56 PM »

Here's a pretty simple drawing of a setup that you can build. Add heat under the boiler and bring it up to the temp for the pressure you are running the still at. Batch running would be easiest. Run the still until the product tank is full shut down and drain the fresh water out, refill boiler, repeat as necessary. Look up reflux distillation on the net. They mostly talk about fragrance oils or alcohol but construction and operation principals are the same. The vacuum pump just lets you run at a lower temp. The vacuum pump only needs to remove the non condensables as the collapsing steam in the condenser maintains the vacuum. The packing in the tower is broken glass or copper wool. The rest of the tower is made up of plumbing parts. Could be a fun project something I want to get to sometime "So many projects so little life"

Bob

Chagrin · « **Reply #14 on:** May 04, 2007, 01:11:44 AM »

Reflux distillation doesn't apply here ... well, unless willib is also trying to distill out the flouride/chlorine in the water, but I believe he's mainly trying to remove the minerals. I'd imagine that attempting to remove the flouride or chlorine would be insanely difficult.

Anyway, the purpose of reflux distillation is to seperate liquids with vaguely similar evaporation points (like alcohol and water). As we all know, you could simply attempt to boil an alcohol/water mixture at the alcohol's lower boiling point but of course a lot of the water will still boil as well and your alcohol purity will be terrible. The reflux column's purpose is to attempt to recondense all of the water vapor mixed with the alcohol vapor before it makes it to the condensation stage of the column.

Off grid in Tonopah · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2007, 01:36:49 AM »

Probably true. You could just run with the reflux closed or not put it in. Would make it more efficient. Mostly I was trying to describe a way of using solar to heat water to something less than 212f and be able to distill it to remove the salt and not have to depend on evaporation.

Bob

jimjjnn · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2007, 03:02:57 AM »

I like your solar distiller better.

You can design it for higher water amounts too. Of course in winter, output will be lower but should still distill pretty good with plenty of insulation on the outside of the distiller.

Norm · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2007, 06:41:40 AM »

Man ...sounds too complicated for me....I'd

like to

just use nature's distilled water....I could just

collect enough rainwater from my 10 x 12 shed

then let the first few minutes of

rain to be diverted to the ground then into a

nice clean 55 gallon plastic barrel

run the water thru a charcoal

filter for the drinking ...I make coffee

so it gets boiled and kills any bacteria ??

Grandma cooked her beans with

rainwater right out of the ol' rainbarrel.

Not telling you what to do ...but that's the

way I'd like to do it....if the 'boss' would let

me....LOL

Fun in NE Ohio

( :>) Norm.

Bruce S · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2007, 09:18:59 AM »

All;

Not to throw an even more or less complicated idea into this, but there is even yet another way.

Back a few years ago I found a person that was doing some deep ocean work off one of the Hawiian Ilands. Best I know he's still working with it.

I know that Willib and most others will not have a 2000' ocean deep pipe close to them, but the idea will work anywhere.

There is the condensation method:-)

This is were cold anything is run through a series of closed loops, the heat around it then condenses the water around those loops. The water drops have proved to be as pure as any distilled method.

I actually use the reverse to make my finshed Alky proof about the 160P now.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2007, 09:29:04 AM »

Ron;

I've seen that page before and wish I had remembered it:-)

The idea is a very sound one and should work within the confined of the attis as well, given the possiblity of the attic getting hot enough.

Willib;

Building this one could also be done on a very small scale to test is viability in your attic.

maybe someting way down in the 12"x18" size that will produce 1/2gal or something like that.

I do have a small electric water heater (10gals)mounted in my attic that is the hot water supply for our 2nd floor shower and faucets. Works very well. I haven't taken temps in a long time. I have it wired for 12Vdc and have a off/on switch to keep it from running when no one is using it.

However I do know that in the mornings the water is still hot enough to shower with without needing to turn the heater on for the first person.

This is with a attic that has less than at the best insulation ( currently fighting squirrels and city) City likes their squirrles and took offense at me and my pellet rifle to run them out of said attic:-(

However the water is also in a heater that is wrapped in a thermal blanket and new 12Vdc element.

Thoughts?

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #20 on:** May 04, 2007, 09:46:50 AM »

Willib;

No wink wink needed my still is fully ATF approved. I have a official document that I filled for way back in late 79 to build one. Used to be held to only 200 gals/year.

No-a-days can make all we want , so long as it's for fuel.My costs per gals ahve gone up to about 2.10/gal but still better than 3.19/gal.

AND much better than buying it by the liter in Brussels!!

You are mostlycorrect, I have my distiller est at 48C which is where I have found that I can get the highest amount of concentration of Alky on the first run, above that and the water starts to get hot enough to become vapor and rides up along with the Alky vapors.

Take a look over and some of the pics I've put up concerning my plastic still and you can get a good iade of out to do this. BUT with two fish tanks you can do something very similar.

I don't drink this stuff so I don't worry about purity. To get more water vapor you would need to be up around the 90C mark, but even before that you'll get water vapor coming out of a tube.

The one thing you'll need to do. Make the one that you're going to use to distill very closed off from the outside world so to speak, get a lid and make sure it fits tightly. With this there's less heat loss.

Bob's information about pressure's is very correct, which is also way most large scale distillers use pressurized tanks. You could even make use of a small pressure cooker, but be careful with those, they aren't forgiving, EVER. But they will allow you to distill using much lower heat settings.

Using a vacuum isn't something that I've tried , but would be neat trying.

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #21 on:** May 04, 2007, 10:05:20 AM »

Bob;

To be honset, I tried building a soler still too. BUT here in St. Louis, we don't have to solar HOT days like you probably have.

I do however use solar PV to charge my NiCd battery banks, that runs the inverter that heats the mash. Does this count?

I do have a few pictures that I've up loaded if you'd like to give it a try.

My current way of keeping the unwanted water vapor is to put a weighted bowl in the middle of the plastic lid to cause a dimple in the middle of the lid, this allows the vapors to condense to the middle and drip back, only the most outside and higher true Alky vapors make it to the outside.

My old 1981 F100 that has a single barrel carb on it, runs on this stuff and purrrrs like it running on high-test gas, this with well over 100,000 miles on it.

The one thing that I don't do is run it thorugh a distiller more than once.

I have this very nice large chest freezer, it's setting is at 0F, I take the first run Alky and put it in there and leave it for ~24 hours. I then pull the bucket out and pour the Alky out from around the ice. This stuff is the High-test stuff, A local hydroponics supplier has tested it to be 185P!! and will mix with gasoline with no problems for the truck. Now I must also say that I run this truck almost completely on Alky, even the 160 stuff will run in it as I have the carb setup for Alky.

I also tend to store my Alky in the freezer gals at a time, and this is where I rememebred the other idea for Willib to use cold condenstaion to gather drinkable water.

Completely enclosed Alky takes along time to warm up, yet during this time there a large amount of water condensing around the bucket ( bucket meaning Gal sized plastic pickle jug/lid). Plus I was finishing off a new run and was pouring off Alky last night.

I have gathered this water up several times, it's very good clear and tastes similar to the stuff in bottles.

Cheers

Bruce S

willib · « **Reply #22 on:** May 04, 2007, 06:10:43 PM »

ok i'm hot wireing a foam shrowd to go round the water i had on the sill since about five thirty.

i started with warm water ,so its impossible to tell how much it warmed up , but i can say for sure that the vapor is thick in there , just waiting to be extracted.

i think that i'll make a foam top too, with holes cut at both ends of the 10 gal fish tank . there is only about 2 to 3 inches of water in the tank.

but there is no rush really as i can heat it up with the immersion heater or some NiChrome wire that i have..

the holes at either end , in the foam top will pull moisture from the tank with a 12 v fan , and pass it by an tilted condenser , which may be just a piece of flat glass , havnt decided yet

RogerAS · « **Reply #23 on:** May 04, 2007, 07:11:16 PM »

Bruce,

I believe you about freezing the water out of a run, I've seen that happen on one bitterly cold morning at elk camp high in the Cascades. Someone left a bottle of Crown on the table outside and it had slushies in it. It was way too cold to be campin' in a canvas tent!

I've seen stills run at higher altitude and the alcohol will cook off at lower temps than like down here in the soupy south.

Can you give us an idea how hany hoops we'd have to jump through to get such a permit as yours? I live in a "dry" county to begin with and running a still of any size would be looked at quite carefully by the locals I assure you.

Take care,

Lumberjack · « **Reply #24 on:** May 04, 2007, 07:15:56 PM »

I cant recall why but I was under the impression drinking pure distilled water was not a very good idea.

Chagrin · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:09:27 PM »

I really don't think a fan will provide much expediency in your process. The recondensation of the water should create enough negative pressure to pull more vapor through whatever passage you have.

Btw, a commercial solar still (solaqua.com):

The design seems smart because it creates a hot surface (the black "box") coupled with a relatively cooler surface (the glass condensation sheet). For a wholly-solar system I don't think you could do much better.

If you're hung up on using electricity to power this you should look into a peltier device. That would allow you to create a cooler surface to speed up condensation where you want it.

zubbly · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:15:28 PM »

i like your horse,

where can i get one like that?

ugamafug!

zubbly

willib · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2007, 10:07:59 PM »

Thats a good idea the peltier , it would provide cold and hot , i could heat the water with the hot side and use the cold to condense it.

i dont have access to the sun all day long , so i think using electricity is the way to go for me.unless i can make one that is attached to my storm windows , i'm not sure if a verticle one would work though.

willib · « **Reply #28 on:** May 05, 2007, 01:38:20 AM »

i'm gonna have to redo the condenser a bit

just thought i would try something i had seen years ago in a boy scout handbook

it was basically a plastic tarp with a stone in the middle and a bowl to collect the water, it does not work very well.

Now before i put the insulation around the tank , the vapor was condensing on the glass very well

thats a 10 gal. fish tank in there

this is it with the top on it

so i'm gonna use piece of glass from a scanner , tomorrow , and try again.

also maybe the vertical collector will work, if i can collect the condensed vapor off the sides , maybe make a channel out of silicone (RTV)

its been fun anyway

jimjjnn · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2007, 06:45:49 AM »

Distilled and bottled water has no flourides to help prevent tooth decay.

Many kids today drink bottled water and tooth decay is on the rise at present.

willib · « **Reply #30 on:** May 05, 2007, 08:03:36 AM »

2.10 a gallon , not bad , can i assume that the electricity is free? solar?

do ya have a link to your battery packs?

also what is the lowest proof that a car will run on?

willib · « **Reply #31 on:** May 05, 2007, 09:44:29 PM »

this is a pretest of the initial test

here i still have to trim the ends off

here ya can see the little glow of the imersion heater in the lower left portion of the glass

Norm · « **Reply #32 on:** May 06, 2007, 06:06:36 AM »

Look at the scenery....it's on a

very small track??

( :>) Norm.

News:

Author Topic: brainstorming (Read 4708 times)