Author Topic: Off-grid in the high-prairie  (Read 2153 times)

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Deron Kazmaier

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Off-grid in the high-prairie
« on: May 28, 2007, 05:42:03 PM »
Hello,

My wife and I are in the process of building our "little house on the prairie". We expect to always be off-grid, and with the large open prairie with near constant wind we should do well to create a wind-based system. That is of course why I am here! I've been reading here since November when we learned we were moving here to western South Dakota, and now I am putting the bits together. I've uploaded a picture of our view to our files section, and will try and get a few more up with the actual small house (16x24).


Money is an issue, but I am a tinkerer at heart and hope that after getting the base system going that I can contribute back not only locally to folks trying to move here and live off-grid as well, but contribute here as well.


The basic idea of the system is three stages of development.



  1. Run everything off a generator sized larger than we need.
  2. Add batteries, charger, and inverter/UPS to reduce time the generator runs.
  3. Add a wind-mill.


The basic design criteria that I think works within our budget is to use a 48v battery bank that powers a larger UPS. I have an APC3000 to start with, but hope to add other inverters tailored to our needs. Ie, one for constant loads like fridge and lights, another for at home day time use like computers and internet satellite, and still another for occasional use.


For batteries I am planning on starting with either a 3x4 or 4x4 bank of new 12v/110ah deep cycle batteries. I just have not found a reasonable source of other batteries around here. These are pretty large batteries by car battery standards, and have no cca or starting references on the outside that I can see.


The two biggest questions I have to fill in are:


Generator selection -- (our cheap 5kW 3600rpm gas powered Coleman died this week, so we are rest to stage 0 till we get a replacement). I would like something that will last, my wife can start in cold weather, and I don't have to sell my children to pay for (I know, we all want that). Are the low-end air cooled diesel generators a better choice than the low end gas? I've seen references to lister based generators, but I need something sooner than later and building a generator head is out of the question right now.


Battery Charger -- I would prefer not to have to spend $500 on an Iota battery charger. Unless someone has a better idea, I would like to do something like the home-brew charger on otherpower.com http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_charger.html. Any sources for a large 48v transformer? Everything I've found online has been for a few milliamps!!


Thanks in advance for your help in getting us pointed in the right direction. I've got another week of house building and then I would like to start getting some power to it!!


Deron (& Marna) Kazmaier

« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 05:42:03 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2007, 12:20:04 PM »
Hello Deron Kazmaier,


Batteries consider golf cart, I have 8 for 48v going to APC 3000 for backup.

Two years going just fine. I hear the 12v are lighter construction than golf cart batteries and cost more per Kwh stored. The heaver it is the better when it comes to batteries. Costco carry, many other stores.


At night consider turning off the UPS, draws 50w always. Use smaller inverter for lighting. 24 * 50w = 1.2kwh/day or 12% of the golf cart batteries.


UPS are cheap, I realized can dedicate a 1kw UPS/inverter to Fridge, turns on only when fridge needs to run. Fridge On/off switch wired to on/off UPS. Very big savings in power. Add insulation carefully to outside of Fridge to reduce run time. Make sure the condenser can breath easily, I added stack in wall to carry away heat from Fridge. All very cheap things to do, yet huge cost savings in power.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 12:20:04 PM by scottsAI »

willib

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2007, 09:28:14 PM »
how many acres come with that driveway :)

welcome to the board
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 09:28:14 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

hiker

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 09:34:39 PM »
sence you have plenty of wind..heres a way to heat your water or even your house..

how far out in the boondocks are you? i think i would go half nuts out there with no trees or mountains.......good luck..

                       http://www.salem-news.com/articles/september162006/osu_wind_heat_91606.php
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 09:34:39 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

wooferhound

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 10:45:12 PM »
Here is a circuit for a Way-Low-Cost battery charger

and the bonus is

No Transformer . . .





« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 10:45:12 PM by wooferhound »

luv2weld

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 08:14:04 AM »
Deron,

Welcome and best of luck!

For a generator, think about all the things you can use it for. Can you weld??

Or if you have an interest in learning to weld, consider a welder/generator. It

can help you build lots of things. Can also supply the power to run a deep well

pump if you have a well. (I know because our well is 600 feet deep)

Costco and Sam's club have them and are willing to let you have them on  a

monthly payment basis. If you just want something quiet and will run forever,

consider an Onan. They run at 1800 rpm's (half the speed of the Coleman that died)


(BTW, can you fix the Coleman??) Was it the gas engine that died, or the generator

section?? If I can help you troubleshoot, email me at luv2weld at hughes dot net

(correct the at and the dot)


You didn't say what your elevation is, but when thinking about a generator, over-

estimate your needs. You will lose efficiency as you go up from sea level. I

think it is 10% for every 1000 feet of elevation. If I got it wrong, maybe

somebody here can correct me.


Batteries--- as was already said, consider golf cart batteries. We had a bank

of those (12) and they lasted over 10 years. We did not baby them either. Just

reasonable care (clean the terminals occasionally and make sure the acid level

never dropped down below the top of the plates.


One final thing to think about. When planning, think about how you can improve

and add on in the future. If you just buy something now to "get by" and will get

what you really want in the future when money isn't so tight---- you end up

spending twice as much and still haven't made a whole lot of progress.

An example would be an inverter/battery charger for the house. Yeah, they are

expensive. But they are always hooked up, so when you run the generator to

pump water or run a power tool, it charges your batteries at the same time. And

if you have 4 small inverters running things, you have 4 times the potential for

Murphy's Law to jump on you.


Ralph

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 08:14:04 AM by luv2weld »
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2007, 03:53:21 PM »
Hi Scott,

I looked at the local Sams (only place I could find golf cart batteries), and pound for pound they cost more than the 12v 110ah at the local Campbell supply store. These batteries are substantial in size and weight, so I'm less worried than I should be.


Your suggestion to turn it off at night is pretty much what I am planning. I am wiring the inside right now (ok, not this very minute) and I am trying to zone things. Basically 4 zones right now: lights/essentials, fridge, computers, non-essentials. The non-essentials may get broken later into msw/pure groups.


I feel good about the fridge. It is pretty new, and was top of the line at the time.


Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep my eye out for golf cart batteries.


Deron

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 03:53:21 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2007, 03:57:38 PM »
Considering the nice south facing roof I am going to have, I think solor water heat will be the first thing I will try. Any windmill is going to have to generate electricty at least for a while. I might try a heat exchanger on the gnerator down the road. Would be best to find a water cooled diesel for that I suppose.


Our little pile on the prarie is about 45 mi north of the town of Belle Fource, SD (which is 10 mi N of Spearfish, which is on there side of black hills from Rapid City). About 70 mi south of the N Dakota/S Dakota border and about 20 mi east of the Montana/Wyoming/South Dakota border. Our nearest neighbor is about 8 mi east of us, and good folks.


It is different living here having lived in the woods for years and years. But we love it!


Deron

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 03:57:38 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 04:09:20 PM »
Ok, this seems almost too easy. What is the down side?


Any specific capacitor suggestions for 40amps say? No kidding shorting the output when not in use... I presume shorting before the bridge would be fine. Maybe a blade switch between incoming power and shorting the capacitors.


I ask on the capacitors because I am a relative newbie when it comes to high amp/voltage AC. Any specific types better than another?


A great big thanks!


Deron

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 04:09:20 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 04:11:59 PM »
The driveway ends at 161acres. It is in the middle of tens of thousands of acres of pasture. Our nearest neighbor is a few hundred head of cattle and a few thousand sheep. Nearest human is 8mi. Still, a great place to be and we love the people (when we see them :-)


Thanks for the welcome,

Deron

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 04:11:59 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

DanG

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 06:16:02 PM »
Consider upgrade paths before making investments; get items desirable for 2nd & 3rd users so you can recoup some costs as your systems mature. Honda inverter or water cooled units last and last, are easily repairable and will sell at a premium a year or two down the line. Entry level diesels will be LOUD - think shotgun loud, your neighbors might even complain about the noise. If you can take the time to be choosey 1800-2400 RPM generators are usually commercial grade, 3600RPM are consumer grade...  oops, dinner bell   mebbes post back in a while
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 06:16:02 PM by DanG »

DanOpto

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Rewinding transformers for battery chargers
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2007, 08:35:24 PM »
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5658


Here is a thread detailing rewinding microwave transformers into low voltage power transformers that would make good battery chargers.

You can rewind them to match different battery voltages.


There are a number of pictures and comments worth reading in the thread.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 08:35:24 PM by DanOpto »

scottsAI

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2007, 09:33:46 PM »
Hello Deron Kazmaier,


Sam's had 12v 110ah at $70. Sam's had a 6v 189 ah for $48.

Costco golf cart 6v 225ah for $53.

$140 for 220ah or $106 for 225, I went with the golf cart.

I noticed battery prices vary around. Your millage may vary.


About the Fridge, I was just looking at 470kwh/year = 1.3kwh/day. Energy star 24cuft.

Starting currents are the problems, keeping a 3000 w UPS running all night for fridge is costly.

APC 3000w quiescent current = 50w/hr * 24 = 1.2kwh/day using almost as much as the fridge.

Doubling the insulation around the fridge will reduce the power it needs almost by half...

Dedicating an inverter to fridge will remove the 1.2kwh/day stand by load of the large inverter.

At night You can use a small 300w inverter which uses 3w/hr for lighting.


Computers use a lot of power. Mine 120w, CRT another 120w.

My laptop 36w, 42w when charging batteries. If can't afford Laptop, use LCD.

Unplug when not using, crt and computer 10w together.

What are you using for Internet?

Phone?


For the home are you using Daylighting? (indoor sun lighting without heat).


How about wind induced ventilation, no blower for fresh air. Assuming your building a tight home.

Rain water to replace a well.

More ideas where that came from:-)

Helping a sister live off grid, way out there, have most of this covered, cheap.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 09:33:46 PM by scottsAI »

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 05:13:32 PM »
Hi Ralph,

I have limited welding experience (just acetylene/oxygen), but I certainly know that I will need more tools than I have not to complete the future wind mill. So yes, I have a future need for welding. Since the water table is at least 2500 ft, we will be hauling water (plus capture from the rooftops). No need for a deep well pump, but I will need a pressure pump to give us indoor running water.


The Coleman is very dead. I noticed the smoke just a few seconds before the thing stopped. The oil cap had worked its way loose, and it spewed oil. I had hoped that it was a simple matter that the low oil had saved it. Evidently not. After an oil change, it was very easy to turn over. Ah, lose spark plug. Still easy. Argh. Finally wouldn't pull at all. I am guessing crankshaft.


Our elevation is around 3400 ft. Not to bad. On the Onan's, any specific models to look for? I see a number on ebay.


Thanks for your suggestions!


Deron

« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 05:13:32 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

Deron Kazmaier

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 05:28:19 PM »
Hi Scott,

I already tried Sam's Club in Rapid City. Too pricey. I see a Costco listed in Billings, MT. I'll give them a call before committing to the deep cycle marine.


Any specific inverter in mind for a fridge? I was under the impression they needed a pure sign wave? I have segmented our wiring so that loads a divided by different needs. Lighting for one, computers another, etc so that I can power down what we don't need. I'll see how it goes. Small enough house I can rerun/rewire if need be without too much trouble.


We are currently using two laptops, and I have a couple towers that I will have to use from time to time. Already got a couple used LCD screens to use for them when needed! We will be using WildBlue for Internet. No other choice (other than other satelite internet companies). Not a utility pole for miles and miles!


We set up our windows for cross ventilation, and the wind should do well. They say even in the summer it gets cool at night and we are doing all that we can to create a tight/well insulated house.


I think the next big step is getting the 48v battery bank to charge! (ok, haven't even got one yet, but that is the one stumbling block plus replacing our generator).


Deron

« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 05:28:19 PM by Deron Kazmaier »

scottsAI

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 12:36:13 PM »
Hi Deron,


WildBlue satellite for $50/mo at 500k is not bad, $300 setup is a bit much.


FYI:

Unamplified WiFi distance record set at 125 miles

http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/31/unamplified-wifi-distance-record-set-at-125-miles/

Can do this for much less than $300.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 12:36:13 PM by scottsAI »

scottsAI

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 03:51:22 PM »
Hi Deron,


Forgot the Fridge Q.


The starting currents are the problem, thus the need for a larger inverter then the 200w or so it draws when running. Most motors will run on mod sin. Tho they don't like it. Some might even burn out, so best to use SIN when you can. Test with Mod SIN by taking the temperature, if not much hotter with mod sin then OK, else don't use. Compressor is sealed, can't measure temperature. Measure current...


APC SmartUPS 1000 should run the fridge, has SIN output.

Getting the UPS started may be a problem.

APC UPS can be started by pressing the buttons on front panel.

Inverter would be better, except SIN is expensive. From eBay SmartUPS ship for $40.

Go for the ones with busted plastic, damaged case, yet work, go cheap.


If you buy something else Make sure it's sin. And can be started from battery.

Many USP are MOD SIN and can NOT be started from battery. I know, have several.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 03:51:22 PM by scottsAI »

luv2weld

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Re: Off-grid in the high-prairie
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2007, 09:09:56 AM »
Deron,

Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

I'd try to find a generator (Onan or as Dan suggested, Honda) that was a take-out from an RV. Somebody else wanted to upgrade to a larger set. A plus is that most

are already set up for remote starting---you (or your wife) don't have to trudge

through snow at 20 below to start the thing!!! Hopefully they will be reasonably

priced. We use an Onan 4000 that we got this way. If you can find a 6kw (or is

it 6.5kw), they are really nice. We know some folks that have these and I'm envious!!


In one of your previous posts, you mentioned comparing batteries pound for pound.

I'm not sure that's the best way to compare. You need to compare the length of time

that they supply power and their useable life.  

Here is a "cut and paste" from http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

    * Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).


    * Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type. However, because the golf cart (T-105, US-2200, GC-4 etc) batteries are so common, they are usually quite economical for small to medium systems.

    * Many (most?) Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, while a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the terms marine and deep cycle are sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option.


Here are some links to help with understanding what you need to set up your system.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/battery3.htm

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

http://www.batteryfaq.org/


Ref: the dead Coleman-- after tightening the sparkplug, and finally wouldn't

turn at all. Did you pull the sparkplug again and try to turn it???

If it turns with the plug out but won't turn with the plug in--- sounds like

valves not opening. If it won't turn no matter what you do---you're probably

right. Rod has melted to the crank.


Keep chugging along. Eventually things should get a little easier.


Ralph

« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 09:09:56 AM by luv2weld »
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!