Solar System is now NOT running loads

[RCpilot]

Since I only have around 200 watts (Still need to build the other two panels) going into my forklift battery right now it will only run about a day and then needs charging. I set the inverter to charge last night and all was well, It showed bulk charge right at 90 amps. Ran like that for about 2.5 hours. I have the remote panel in my computer room to be able to watch everything remotely. The panel started beeping, displaying errors and I noticed that the charge had quit and the AC led was out. Got the book out and did troubleshooting reading. Book said to reset unit. Headed out to the shed to reset it. Flipped the unit off, waited about ten seconds and when I turned it on, a loud pop came from it, and burnt electronic smell came out of the fan end. Man I was bummed out cause I immediately knew from the sound it made that it was toast. Has anyone had experience with this unit? I was told that it was a bulletproof unit. I understand that electronics simply fails sometimes but why does it have to be something I own    Good news is Xantrex is cross shipping me another but it won't be here until mid next week. That's my fun for the day....

Kelly

[DanG]

Without the details... its like troubleshooting automobile trouble going by the paint color and number of doors... What were translations to thrown error codes?

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/41/p/1/pt/24/product.asp

The Prosine units can be touchy, ever note the number of remanufactured units on eBay?

Lets differentiate the reading of some of their specs; the prosine 2.0 will pump out high charging currents...  but it expects it to taper off rapidly NOT have bottomless used industrial 1500AH battery to try and fill. I think their unit is well balanced for two or four RV or Marine style AGMS...

If you had 90A charging and the specs do say >80% efficiency... your unit was internally dissipating 18A at 14~ volts for a minimum of 250 watts of heating inside that sexy yellow case - and still passing 90A at 14~ volts for another 1250 watts of energy... so the AC side was handling 1500 watts probably for the whole 2-1/2 hours.

With that kind of heating some robust cooling is required - and I bet their fan is a compromise to lower complaints on noise too. If you are continuing w/ the 2000...

Is the case body aluminum? I know the 2.5/3.0's are. I would get some aluminum stock and get as much contact area to the prosines' aluminum case as I could, and then have those custom sized brackets attach to a square yard or so of 1/4" or better aluminum sheet stock... and have all of that well ventilated!!

[RCpilot]

The Xantrex tech didn't know what the codes meant, they were Internal Error 2561 and Internal Error 2563. The tech had me try to turn the unit on again and then all it would display was Memory Error and wouldn't respond to any button pushes. I do remember that the AC input was around 16 amps while outputting the 90amps charge. After it died, I felt the case of it within a minute or two after it quit and it really wasn't that warm. In the past week or so during a charge cycle, I would check the unit and it really never got that warm, the air coming out of it was warm but not hot. I have the inverter set to "Generic Flooded" as the battery type and the inverter has a setting that allows you to set the AH of your bank. I have it set to 1500AH. It goes to 2000AH. Yes the case is aluminum. The fan seems to move quite a bit of air, and I am considering opening the inverter up to take a look at it's heatsink layout and see if I can improve it somehow without voiding the warranty, maybe adding another fan or more aluminum inside or outside as you suggest. Before anyone bashes me on this, among my talents, I was an electronics tech and repaired digital keyboards, Large guitar amps and other music industry equipment for several years.




I have tried for a week to get detailed information about my battery and have had no luck, nobody ever calls back from these large companies. My battery details are: GNB Model M16011212513A 24V 750AH S/N GHA2103 Weight 1354Lbs. This is right off the label on the side. I did get one response that said the battery was manufactured in 1998 so it's almost ten years old already. But with the few runs I was able to make with it after charging it up with the inverter, and then running the inverter with anywhere from 10-50 amps of load I was able to get about 24 hours out of it. I really need to load it with a non changing load and let it rip. I still don't have a definitive answer as to how far I can discharge it. The one person that did reply to an email I sent to a battery company said it could be discharged to 1.75 volts per cell but that seems pretty low to me. 1.75v x 6 (x2 - Battery is paralleled) = 10.5v that's really dead. I saw another post here that said 11.5volts is what they run theirs down to each time. The inverter has very detailed manual charge settings for the bulk, absorption and float but without my battery specs I don't know what to set it to, hence the "Generic Flooded" setting. I agree with out about the unit IS probably meant for a smaller bank. The unit isn't really that heavy like some of the other Xantrex units that weigh 100lbs or so. My main interest right now is making sure the battery has some decent life left in it and to setup the inverter properly for that battery. AND to finish building two more Solar Panels.

[DanG]

I just gave up a couple of hours searching for battery info - there are used GNB forklift batteries for sale by lift dealers, contact them to see if they have specifics..

Example (1999 dates) http://www.deckerforklifts.com/scripts/product.asp?ID=4463

Best I can tell is your bank was intended for 240 charge-discharge cycles a year - do not short cycle the charges on it. that 2.5 hours counts as a charge cycle. Most hour vs amperage tables have that 1.75 VPC as bottom line, but 1.92 or even 1.95 (11.75V) will vastly increase the number of discharges.

1500AH divided by 90A charge rate equals  C/16 - a constant voltage charge between C/15 and C/20 is probably most desirable.. but a 3 day charge until it rejects any further current, full charge and equalize would be great if the bank history is unknown or if you know battery was allow to go flat before you obtained it. C/10 charge is useful on smaller batteries that can shed heat easier - remember the forklift batteries are designed around shiftwork, 8-hours on and 16-hours off...

I believe since they are pre-exide GNB's they are not exotics - just flooded lead-acid so the only measure of battery condition that matters is the specific gravity of the electrolyte, and that is the same no matter if lead calcium or lead antimony plate construction. http://www.hupsolarone.com/about-batteries.htm has a good graphic on SOC versus Specific Gravity and data on temperature adjustments to readings, etc..

I see the Prosine is current limited above a 75C internal temperature - but that 167F is still plenty warm. I trust Xantrex has anti-tamper seals; a label that must be cut to part the case halves or something so sure would not be worth loosing warranty for a sneak peak, tread softy grasshopper!

Oh, and I am following your progress with great interest...

Shown are 30+ pounds of evergreen solar cells bought from eBay vendor for less than raw silicon was selling for at the time - that stopped in a hurry shortly after I nabbed these... I am still looking for best way to mount them, probably about 250+ square feet of deep blue pictured here...

[RCpilot]

DanG, I an extremely envious! AND with tabs attached. Wanna sell any? How many good ones  did you end up with? Thanks for making an attempt to find my battery, I have spent countless hours looking myself and making phone calls that nobody every returns the call on. One thing I have noticed is that even after the Prosine ran through a charge cycle, the battery's SG never reads that it's fully charged. Here's a shot of my Hydrometer. I have never seen the SG in the green area, almost touching it but never really "into" it. I wonder sometimes if my electrolyte is weak or my meter is off. It has a small paper scale inside the bobber and I wonder if it has slipped down a bit. I have read where others have added acid to a battery to adjust the SG a little at a time. My Daughter's boyfriend is supposed to be getting me a large battery charger that will handle the bulk charging of the battery soon. I figure I can use it to do the cycling of the battery to bring it up better than frying my inverter. I remember the temp of the inverter was 147F when it quit, well below the limit that the manual says. As for opening it up, you can bet I will be looking for tattletales that will tell someone it's been open. I just want to see how it is heat sinked and what the possibility of adding another fan or more heatsink metal somewhere. I tried to see if the fan was ball bearing but couldn't see enough of it to tell. You can bet if I find out it's a sleeve fan it will definitely be replaced with a good one. What am I doing that you would want to follow? I never thought my project was all that special, just a poor boy trying to get on board with Renewable energy. Would you be up for a phone call sometime to further discuss forklift batteries since you seem to know quite a bit about them?




Kelly




Here's a shot of my Hydrometer, I got it at an automotive store. Is It ok? also, how can I calibrate it to make sure it is accurate? You can barely see the green band in the picture but I have never seen the battery "Into" the green. Once, just barely touching it.

[DanG]

About batteries I am not that smart, and sorry - I've given some away to friends but won't sell any yet. I've been told they are incubating nicely where they are (TomW) so please accept my apologies now since I can't resist putting another photo up : )

Here is 600~ near perfect 'silicon crisps' in 1lb increments between the foam dividers.

It looks like ~20% were pulled due to QA tests from the pencil "X" written on the backs, whether visual or electrical flaw I have no clue yet, otherwise the word was it was complete 'hands-off' assembly line, when they shut down the line each stations magazines had to be emptied and thus those are the cells with any real value. The do have have the wax solder process rosin on the leads and I still occasionally find blue sparkles in the cats fur, the garden, carpet of the truck, etc. from the days I spent sorting them.

I have an aversion to paying retail - especially for iron-free tempered glass. I also have a greater aversion to cutting apart finished panels to mend a failed wafer. Using seconds in something meant to last 50 years didn't sink in until after I dragged them home so I am leaning toward 6-Volt panels in a module system to keep an overhaul scheme viable - and that would mean 200+ pieces of tempered glass and the EVA sheet to seal them and the racks to mount the glass sheets in. Luckily the price structure is by square feet instead of pieces on glass, I have not seriously approached any glass suppliers but the water-white tempered glass is key for these to have highest output.

I have made a good cell go-no-go electrical tester that will grade each cell in a single step but dread handling these cells any more than I have too, breakage is inevitable as these silicon string foundry process multi-crystalline cells want to return to explode into sand unless they are armored by a cover glass and back plate.

How fragile?  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert%27s_Drop ; Okay maybe I exaggerate but they are surely 20x more fragile than ingot sawn PV wafers so I won't handle these again until they are ready to be assembled...

Also see: http://www.evergreensolar.com/app/en/technology/item/48...

[RCpilot]

Thanks for the shots of so many cells. I could be your friend too   I totally understand after building two panels myself and breaking several during the soldering phase. But really if you ever decide to part with any, I now have, I think, enough experience that I could build a killer panel out of them.