Living Off Grid

[Wheeler]

I am living off grid and have been for about 2 years. I know a little more than I first did but not much more. I hope to better understand DC electricity as it relates to solar power.  
At the present time I have 2880 watts of solar panels and will be adding another 1440 watts in the near future.

I will try to post some pics of my house.

[Wheeler]

[kitestrings]

Wheeler,

You can learn alot from folks here, and through other sites and sources that folks can point you to.  I'd encourage you to be more specific.  For example,

"My system consists of x number of x watt panels wired in thus and such configuration(voltage, controller, batteries, etc.)  And, here's what I really need to know is ..."

A good place to start for general info on Solar, wind, how to stuff is Home Power Magazine.  Many of the RE dealers also have informative websites.  Try googling this board, and the web on specific topics.  My $.02; no charge.  -kitestrings

[Wheeler]

Thanks for the advice,

My system consists of 24 KC-120 panels wired as 48v per array feeding an MX-60 controller. I have 24 Trojan T-125 batteries in series and parallel that power a Trace Ps 25/24 inverter.  I have another 12 KC-120 panels to be installed soon.

Wheeler

[spinningmagnets]

Wheeler, thanks for posting, especially the pics.

I can't imagine anyone would hassle you about putting up a wind-gen (a common problem) and the flat land with few trees seems like a good location for one...

What part, of what state, are you in? (there are popular sites that show the average useable sun/wind in any area) this will help others compare your "available RE/happy with my system" ratio.

What are your typical loads? (LCD TV, CFL lights, Kwh/day, etc) and do you expect you will be reasonably happy with your system after you finish the extra panel additions?

"If it weren't for electricity we'd all be watching TV by candlelight." -George Gobol

[CmeBREW]

Wow, talk about being in the middle of NOWHERE!  I would sure hate for the wife to forget to fill the car gas tank and extra gas cans.  Looks like quite a walk.

Nice solar collection array.  I'm sure you get very good sun and wind out there.  Looking forward to your projects in the future.  Thanks for sharing the photos.

Ever think about being the first to make a 100 foot diameter mill??

(Just keep glueing a bunch of 2x4's together until each blade is big enough)

[Wheeler]

Spinning;

I have a small (Air/X) wind generator I am planning to install when I move the existing panels to the barn area.  I will still need some DC power in the house and I plan on using the air-x for this purpose.

I am in Bouse Az. about a 33 mile flight from Parker Az.

I have not calculated my usage as of yet, I did realize early on that the original panels (20 arco M-53) were not enough for my usage so I have upgraded with the Kyocera panels.  

At first I started to mix and match panels when a neighbor told me this is not proper, I bought the used KC-120's and am now selling the original Arco panels.

Thank you for your response.
Wheeler

[Wheeler]

Brew;

Here is a project some friends have been working on for some time. Last week they brought over a petal out of a parabolic collector and showed us how it concentrates energy.  

The last picture is when the collector was assembled and focused on a piece of 3/8 al. plate.

As time goes by I will post more pics.

[kitestrings]

Wheeler,

Great pics.  Nice slice of serenity.

I don't know if you been there yet, but OB has a great forum for users at:

http://www.outbackpower.com/forum

Just out of curiousity, where do you get your water out there?

-kitestrings

[Volvo farmer]

Wow! That's a lot of power. You've got six parallel strings of batteries? How's that working out? Everything I've read says to limit parallel strings to three.

What are you doing with all that power? I'm powering my whole home with a family of four and an electric refrigerator on less than half of what you're planning.

Welcome to the board! Nice pictures!

[Wheeler]

Kite:

I have two wells, the main well produces 150 gal. per minute with storage of 25,000 gal. and is ran by a Ford tractor engine running on propane.  

The lower well has not been used since the wind mill fell apart (before I purchased the property) I plan on fixing it when I learn more and collect some money.  

The aquifer is at 180 feet and the wells are about 280 feet deep.

I have joined the OB forums, however being so naive about solar and the computer I have not posted, I have only read topics.

I found this site on Sunday by accident so I decided to join and hopefully learn.

[Wheeler]

Farmer:

Since I am so new to this, answering question is tough, I will try.  The batteries are grouped in fours to achive the 24 volts then the six groups of batteries are connected to the inverter, I believe this is a parallel series system?  or should I say, the batteries are wired in a parallel/series configuration?  

The power usage is minimal at the moment, when the heat arrives I will be running the swamp coolers 24/7 I am not able to equalize the batteries when the coolers are on, however the batteries come up to a full charge by late afternoon. I have heard I should not run the batteries too deep in discharge as this will cause premature failure, so I bought more than I thought I would need.

I will be installing a back up generator when I reconfigure the system, then I hope to be able to install A/C, as the girl friend will need it (high temp last year 121 deg.) if I expect her to live here.

[kitestrings]

Wow, that's impressive.

I was expecting that the depths might be alot deeper.  I would think that would be well within the range of capabilities of some of the better solar powered deep well pumps available now (600-750' are out there).

We've used a Sun Pumps (Safford, AZ) DC pump for years with good results, but our static level is only about 60'.

You might also be interested to see the article in Dec/Jan Homepower (#122).  A fellow named Kevin Moore describes rebuilding a wind pumper.

Welcome, and best of luck with your system.  kitestrings

[Off grid in Tonopah]

Hey Wheeler

    I'm about 70 miles southeast of you in Tonopah, AZ. I've been off grid for 5 years now and love it. I have 1100 watts of solar and adding some more this spring and a Lakota wind turbine. It helps a little but southern AZ isn't the best for wind, but I love to see the neighbors think I'm running my house off the thing when it does run and it's more fun to watch than the PV. I run a diesel for my AC needs in the summer. Just to dam hot to try to tough it out. Use an evap until mid June and again in mid Sept. Looks like you have plenty of solar to carry your house are you using propane for heat and stove? What is your water source? Who's doing your install, yourself? Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Is that a airstrip I see in those photos? I use to own a Cherokee 235 about 8 years ago. It became a wife, two kids and 10 acres of Tonopah.

[Wheeler]

I use propane for the cooking, and the fire place for heat, the house is well insulated and about 2700 sq. feet counting the basement.

The solar system was in at the time of purchase, I have installed different panels and now need to get the funds to redo the complete system.  I will need to learn more before I purchase the OutBack inverters that I think I need.

Yes that is an airstrip, about 2500 feet in length, that is one of the first improvements I made to the property. My plane is a 1946 Aeronca Champ, I keep it in Parker until I can fund a hangar.

Thank you for the offer of help, I might take you up on it when I really get down to business.

About the wind generator, I have been hesitant to install it as the wind is not that consistent here. I realize that it will still help during the hours of darkness .  The neighbor has two Air-X and I can hear them running (he is about 1/2 mile away) so I am still not sure if I will install it or place it on ebay.

Wheeler

Ps. You can sleep in your plane but you can't fly your house

[ghurd]

I have a feeling the "3 in a string" is related to shading and/or improper mounting.

Shading sure doesn't look like a problem!

I would be concerned about the heat under the PVs in OH, let alone there!

Might want to get them to at least a 15 degree tilt to the south.  Even if it mean re-drilling holes and doing a bit of rewiring.

Better perfomance.  Longer life.

Might look into some kind of controller that runs an attic fan when the batteries reach X-volts. Or whatever.  Lots of ways to use DC better than AC.

CmeBREW's fan is a grand example of using DC...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/23942/1876

G-

[spinningmagnets]

This is definitely the number-one RE web-site. There are several hundred great ideas about heating and cooling at "builditsolar.com" and its editor Gary is a veteran poster here, too.

I'm doing homework here for my retirement, and you are already living it. What things, and in what order, would you add to improve your quality of life (as funds allow), now that you are already at the "surviving" level?

Long ago I had some severe financial struggles, and as a result I have told my son many times "you can sleep in a van, but you can't drive an apartment to work".

[Off grid in Tonopah]

No problem I'd love to give ya a hand. I did all my installation myself and have learned a bunch along the way. I run a Outback 3524 an 660 amp hour battery bank. I hit my batteries pretty hard but I use t105 and they replace easy. I'm adding some more solar this spring and will up my battery bank some. I'd sell the air-x they are noisy. My Lakota is quite as a mouse and it is nice for those days when the sun doesn't shine. By all means go diesel when you add the backup gen. I get red diesel delivered to my house and have a storage tank. It's like doing the heating oil thing back east in the winter. You're a tougher man than I if your doing the swamp cooler all summer. I'd have to have at least a window shaker in one room as a refuge. Nice thing about living away from the heat island of the city at around 10:00 at night its cool enough to shut down the diesel and open some windows for all but the very dead of summer. And the stars are awesome

                                    Bob

                                    purist01@hughes.net

[Wheeler]

I plan on moving the solar panels (after I replace the roof) to the building behind the house. The angle of the roof appears good and I have enough space on the roof to accept all 9 arrays that I currently have.

 With all of the Kyocera panels I will have 4320 watts of rated power and with a back up generator and 16 L-16's I should be set, or so I think.

The panels are not mounted directly to the roof, the space between the existing panels and the roof is about 18",  I will stand them off when I move them, how much space do I need?

 

[Wheeler]

At the present time, I am back in Ca. working to make enough money to make the changes necessary.

 I am in the process of selling off things I do not need or use and considering starting a business in the local area instead of Ca.

 I have never been a person to plan things very well, so any advice I might give could be construed as bad advice!  When it comes time to retire, bring about 1 mil. with you, you might need it!

Wheeler

[Volvo farmer]

Thanks for the reply.

We all have opinions, and mine are none less stinky than anyone else's. Yeah, you have six times four batteries so you have six parallel stings. If you doubled your inverter voltage to 48V, you would fall within the three-string recommendation that I have heard.

I learned so much in my first year off grid. I wonder why you still feel lost? The most important thing to me is the health of my batteries. Do you have an amp-hour meter like a Trimetric or similar? Do you use a hydrometer to check the cells of your battery bank? Do you record the values?

Equalization is important and if you are not doing it for six months at a time, I think you are making a mistake. Perhaps loads could be shedded or moved so that batteries could be equalized once in a while.

[Wheeler]

The batteries do get equalized as this is done on auto as I recall, I know the trace units were set for auto equalize, now I use the MX-60.  While I'm running the coolers I do not have enough power to equalize and I turn on or both off when the batteries are being equalized.

When you speak of the trimetric, what is the purpose of it?  

I recently placed a large chalk board above the battery box so I could record some info. the problem I have with this is, I am not sure what to record and why I am doing it.

I have learned somethings while I have been here, but is is difficult to put into words as ..... I am even at a loss here.  With the help from people like you and the others on this board, I will get it, sooner or later.

I will go back and start reading previous posts as my quest for knowledge continues.

thanks for the response and the help!

Wheeler

Ps. does the seemingly large string of batteries have a play on ... ah forget it, I will do some reading then post this question.

[Dave B]

  Welcome to the Other Power discussion board. I have really enjoyed reading your post and seeing the great photos, something many others here will enjoy and learn form besides.

  I have been here for many years and currently am rebuilding my 18' axial alternator that has been inspired by and much copied from the Dan's the originators of the board. You will meet many helpful people here and there is a lot of combined knowledge on many different aspects of AE.

  What type of basement wall do you have and how deep ? Thank you again for posting, I look forward to your future contributions.

  (I couldn't help but feel I could "hit" your strip on base ready to turn left on final, I soloed twice many years ago in a Blanik sailplane here back East. A little more anxious though over the trees and dropping it in on 1000' less for the first time.) Thanks again for sharing.  Dave B.

[ghurd]

The 18" is good.  

Probably want them tilted south.

And spread out so they don't shade each other.

Jeeze.  Thats a lot of power.

G-

[BT Humble]

Thanks for the advice, My system consists of 24 KC-120 panels wired as 48v per array feeding an MX-60 controller. I have 24 Trojan T-125 batteries in series and parallel that power a Trace Ps 25/24 inverter. I have another 12 KC-120 panels to be installed soon. Wheeler

This might be a silly question, but why have you got your panels wired in a 48V configuration to feed your 24V battery system?  If your panels are the same as these ones then you should have them wired in pairs to feed your 24V battery system:

http://www.solaronline.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?product_id=1107358708

Doing that will double the power you're harvesting from them.  I also run a 24V system, but my panels are 24V each so I have all 4 of them wired in parallel:

BTH

[Old F]

Wheeler

From the looks of the tail your water pumper is an Aermotor

There still in around.  Heres there link    

http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/Links/Index.asp

Welcome the board

Old F

[Volvo farmer]

Because he has a MX60.

My panels are also wired for 48V into a 24V bank.

The beauty of MPPT.

[Wheeler]

Farmer, yes you are correct, I was using three trace controllers and noticed that all would not be producing the same power.  

When one or more went into float mode and another was still producing power I thought there must be a better way.

I started reading the Outback manual and realized I could control all 24 panels if they were wired at 48v.  With my limited experience this made sense to me, when I install the remaining 12 KC-12 panels and purchase a complete Outback system, I might need to use two mx-60's, although I am not certain of this.

[Wheeler]

Dave,  the basement is about 9' deep 16' wide and 34' in length.  

Blanik's are real nice planes, I have very limited time in gliders, about the time I started my training in '80 the Ultralight revolution was up and running so this is the path I took, now I am flying fixed wing which is (at least in my plane) not much different than the Ultralights I flew.

thank you for the response

Wheeler

[Wheeler]

The tail reads "Fairbanks Morse" I am not sure if this is the manufacture or just a name.  I try to remember to do a search when I get on the net, only to get side tracked by other interests. Now that propane has jumped in  price, I should at least find out more about getting it fixed.  I will check out the link you posted, thanks!

Wheeler

[Wheeler]

Bob, one thing I need to consider is, when I do the new installation I need a licensed contractor so I can get the solar rebates.  Az. A.P.S. gives 2.00 per watt as a rebate for off grid (so I have been told) plus any tax credits.  One company I spoke with told me even with my used panels and the new Outback power station this will be considered a new installation, do you know if this is true?

Wheeler

[Off grid in Tonopah]

Wheeler

    If the installer gives you an invoice I believe that's what the rebate will be based on. How he/she comes up with that total is between you and them. And I'm sure there is a lot of room to move around in in the billing for a project like yours. If you have the receipts from the panel purchases than I don't think there should be any problems at all. Not having participated in any of the rebate programs because I wanted to do the installation myself, I can't speak with any authority on how it works. But if your installer says's it's looked at as a new install he/she probably has a good handle on it. Those rebates are their bread and butter right now so they know.

                                                  Bob

[Volvo farmer]

Yeah, you're right at the limit of the MX60 right now. You'll need another controller. You could re-use one of your old trace controllers, a C-60 should (barely) handle 12 KC120s at 24V. I've got a c40 and an MX60 and they play pretty nice together as long as I set the bulk voltage on the C40 a few tenths below the MX60.