Author Topic: 500 W motorconversion finished  (Read 4823 times)

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dinges

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500 W motorconversion finished
« on: February 29, 2008, 03:31:59 PM »
Dear Diary,


I'm just so excited! Today I finally finished the conversion of 'Blue Boy', a 500 W motor. Let me tell you the full story, dear diary.





This is what it looked like as I got it:





A small 500 W, 2 pole (3000 RPM) single phase 240Vac motor used as a swimming pool pump. Admittedly, 2 poles are not ideal for conversion due to the geometry of their stator (long and thin, as opposed to short and stubby for slow running multi-pole generators). Nevertheless I decided to convert it. I had made a few more conversions before but had never rewound a motor. As the next project in the pipeline involves rewinding a 10 hp motor I thought I'd better practice a little first. The Blue Boy was the ideal victim and so, encouraged by Zubbly's 'go for it!' on IRC, I started my first motor rewind project. (the shaft that is lying in the foreground of the photo was leftover from a previous conversion project, the 3 hp motor (http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/17/22270/167). The shaft formed the raw material to machine a new shaft and rotor out of one piece)


...You gotta tear down before you can build up...





The motor taken apart and the original windings removed. I clipped the ends of each coil off with a sidecutter and then carefully hammered the remaining bits of copper out of the stator slots. This must be done carefully as you run the risk of damaging stator laminations (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album68/blue_monster_damaged_laminations). It doesn't work for all motors, but in this case, the copper cores came out in one piece with relatively little effort. Still, all in all there's a couple of hours of work involved in removing the original windings.


Some of the copper 'cores' were saved for future reference. They are needed to determine the slotfill. By counting the number of windings per slot and measuring the diameter, we can determine the amount of mm^2 of copper per slot. This is information we need when rewinding the stator. Slotfill was 14 mm^2 copper.


In the above picture also can be seen the new front end-bell. I happened to have an identical motor (different brand, but obviously the same Chinese factory) with a more suitable endbell than the original one. The original motor that the spare endbell came from I ruined as I tried removing the windings from the stator and damaged it too much.


There are 24 slots in there so an 8 pole 3 phase conversion turned out to be one possible option. After some sketching, calculating and thinking it proved to be possible to make an 8 pole conversion using 12x6 mm round magnets (N42 grade).





The original rotor can be seen here (which was also slightly rusted on one side; chlorinated swimming pool water will do that to steel). A new shaft and rotor were machined out of one piece of steel (the original shaft from the 3hp conversion). The shaft was made a little longer than the original as well. Above picture shows the steel rotor before the aluminium sleeve that holds the magnet was fitted.





A sleeve was then made from aluminium. Holes were drilled to hold the magnets in position. It's hard to see in this picture but the poles are skewed. The skew angle for this particular motor was 3.9 degrees (for more info on how to determine skew angle, see this file: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/3538/decogging_tutorial_V1.pdf)


To mark the holes that needed to be drilled I used some CAD software to draw an outlay, scale 1:1. This was then taped around the blank aluminium sleeve and used to centerpunch the holes. This picture shows that method used on another conversion: http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49/130W_rotor_marking)


After the centerpunching the holes can be pilot-drilled, pre-drilled and drilled to final size. In this case it was a tough job as there was very little room for error, as the magnets nearly touched eachother at the bottom. Drilling took a few hours of work with the necessary concentration so as not to screw up.


After the aluminium sleeve was drilled it was deburred and Loctited (using Loctite 638) on the steel rotor.





After the Loctite had cured the rotor assembly was put in the lathe again and turned down to final size. This ensured that the outside of the rotor is aligned with the centerline of the shaft.


The 48 N42 12x6 mm magnets (~1/2"x1/4") were then installed using epoxy adhesive. Notice the use of epoxy, not polyester or 'fibreglass resin', as it's commonly called. For anyone wanting to know the reason for using epoxy and not polyester, read this story by Zubbly: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/11/7/132725/326


The picture above shows the rotor with magnets installed being inserted into the stator. Just to see whether it fits :) At this time I guesstimate there's about 20-25 hours of work invested into it, so it would be, ehm, un-nice, if things didn't fit.


Now the rotor is taken care of we can start work on the stator:





The first thing to do is to determine how many turns per coil are needed. This is done by installing a single test turn (wave winding) into the stator. (This is also where I went initially wrong...). After consulting with this board (http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/7/72559/4261) I had settled upon a cut-in speed of 250 RPM in star for a 12V system. Driving the generator with a temporary single-turn (I thought...) winding installed with a cordless drill gave me the RPM/V for this particular genny. It turned out I needed 7 turns per coil, so with a slotfill of 14 mm^2 I decided on 7 turns of 2-in-hand 1 mm wire. The testwinding was then removed. In the picture can also be seen the borrowed coil forms (the white nylon thingies) that will be used for winding the coils. A single test loop of wire is installed to measure the distance needed between both coil forms during winding of the coils.





Slotliner was cut to size and installed. I'm in the lucky situation that there is a motor rewind shop in my small village and that they are interested in my experiments and don't mind me asking for some material (as copper wire, slot liner, slot cover, coil winding forms, lacing tape, old 10 hp motors, ...) at times. It's also interesting to have a look around in the shop and see how the professionals rewind). In the above picture the slotliners can be seen. They're there to prevent the windings from shorting to the stator over time. If you want to know why insulation and varnishing is needed, then check out this high-speed video of the windings in a motor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPNU2vniUIc&feature=related





The next step was the actual winding of the coils. I used the borrowed coil forms and installed them in a make-shift coil winder. The distance between the coil forms is determined with the help of the test loop as shown in one of the pictures. The coils were 7 turns each, 2-in-hand 1 mm wire. Coils were wound individually and later soldered together. I did it like this because I thought it would be easier for a first rewind.





Inserting the first coil into its slot took about an hour. I then removed this first coil and inspected the wire for any possible damage (scratches) to the varnish. It was fine. The next coil was inserted and this time it went much faster due to having developed the proper routine. The next coils took only a few minutes each. I found that the trick was using properly sized bits of wood to prevent the coils from jumping back out of their slots as you're dealing with the next loops to be inserted. This was a little trick learned from the visit to the motor shop.





Yay! All windings are in! Next step: solder all the individual coils together, making sure to wire them up correctly, to their correct phase, and in the right direction...





Hard to see in this picture, but the coils have been soldered and the joints insulated and bent in position. The coils were also bent backwards so as to leave the stator bore clear. Each phase was measured with the milli-ohm meter to check for possible faults. Each phase measured between 110 and 116 milli-ohm so I figured it was fine. This test, however, does not show up possible inverted connections.


Next the rotor was inserted for a testrun. A cordless drill rotating at 1000 RPM was used to drive the shaft. The good news was, the genny worked fine! Except that cut-in speed was not the expected 250 RPM but 1000 RPM...


This had me scratching my head for a few hours (there was -exactly- a factor 4.0 difference in cut-in RPM) till I realized my mistake: when I had installed the single-turn wave winding I had calculated how many turns I needed per coil. But, in an 8 pole generator (with 4 coils), one loop in wave winding is actually equal to 4 coils of 1 turn, not just one coil of one turn, as I had used in my calculations. Hence the factor 4 difference in cut-in RPM. ARGH!


Putting the sidecutters into the preciously rewound motor did hurt. A lot. Sigh. Evil tongues say tears welled up in my eyes. I deny this though.





...back to square one...


So, instead of using 7 turns per coil I needed 28 turns per coil. This time I used .7 mm wire which gave me a slotfill of 10.5 mm^2 (there was room for 14 mm^2 but I didn't want to fully stuff the slot with wire as this was my first rewind; no need to make it too difficult just yet). This time the 4 coils of each phase were wound in one piece. This would make inserting the coils a little harder but save a lot of work and risk of mistakes when soldering the coils together. No joints also means a more reliable system.





Winding the new coils was relatively uneventful.





The first phase is inserted. Inserting the new coils went much faster than the first time. Guess I'm still on the steep initial part of the learning curve where progress happens quickly :)





This picture also shows the slot covers that were shoved over the wires to help them keep them inside the slot. The slotcover is made from the same material as the slotliner insulation but is pre-formed by the manufacturer for ease of installing.


All phases are in but not yet laced. The rotor was inserted for another testrun to see if this time it would cut-in at the right RPM. And it did. It was spot on. The motor (actually, it can now rightly be called a generator) was disassembled and the wiring was cleaned up, routed to the right places and everything was bound together using lacing tape.





It's surprising how solid the windings feel when they're tightly bound up with lacing tape. They're already beginning to feel like one mass of copper. It could be just me but it looks much nicer as well when it's laced together.


The next step was varnishing the rotor to make the windings really solid. This is something I wanted to do myself but, lacking the proper varnish, I once more bothered the good people at the rewinding shop who put my little Blue Boy into a drying oven for a few hours at 140 deg. C, dipped it into their varnish tank and then put it in the curing oven. It got varnished and baked along with one of the big boys in the shop. Interesting tidbit: the varnish and the wire are actually part of a system, they're meant to be used together. Apparently one can't simply switch from one type/brand of varnish to another without also using another brand/type of wire. The lacquered copper wire and varnish have to be compatible with eachother.





The windings are now rock-solid. I just hope I'll never again have to take it apart for a rewind...


A last look at the finished motor, err, generator before it is closed again and the endbells are installed.





Next step was determing the generator curve. The generator was wired in star and connected to a rectifier and a small 12V / 7 Ah battery. The lathe was used to spin it up. Voltage and current were then measured for various RPMs. The graph below shows the charge curve for the generator:





As can be seen, it cuts in exactly at 250 RPM. [in the voice of Hannibal: 'I just love it when a plan works']. It puts out about 120 W maximum at 1000 RPM so it should probably be marketed as a 100W genny.


There you have it. One finished generator, ready to be used for a small windgenny. Well, actually, it still needs a new coat of paint. During the building of the generator I also started working on the yaw mount but there's still quite a bit work left. Also it still needs a hub and blades. It'll be a little longer before she flies just yet. But the most important thing is that it was a succesful trial in making a motorconversion that included a rewind. I'm glad I learned the hard lessons on this small cheap generator and not on the 10 hp conversion that work is now slowly starting on.





To be continued...


If you have read this entire longwinded dull technical story you must obviously have been very bored. But, for anyone still awake and interested, more and high-resolution pictures can be found here: http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album69?page=1


A final word of thanks goes to the motor winding company Stolk, especially André and Albert, this board, the people in IRC and especially Zubbly, who was the one who convinced me that rewinding a motor wasn't a hard thing to do at all. If it hadn't been for his advice and support this project probably never would have even started.


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 03:31:59 PM by (unknown) »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

Flux

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 09:08:46 AM »
Nice work Peter.


I suspect most people tend to go for motor conversions as they are afraid of winding.


I tend to avoid conversion because of all the time consuming precision engineering needed for the rotor. In comparison the winding is fairly quick and simple once you get the knack. To get the best results it definitely pays to wind for the exact voltage rather than play around with lots of parallel circuits from a high voltage winding.


I would be interested to know the resistance between a pair of leads as it seems to have an equivalent series resistance of 3.6 ohms.


If that was an air gap machine it would have a resistance of about 2.7 ohms. I just wonder if the strange 1.3 factor still holds. Yours shows no sign of reactance limiting so no reason why it shouldn't.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 09:08:46 AM by Flux »

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 11:05:36 AM »
Thanks Flux.


I just measured the resistance of every phase with the milli-ohm meter; they are all between 130.5 and 131 milli-ohm. That is the resistance with all the phases disconnected from eachother (i.e. not in star or delta).


How did you arrive at an 'equivalent series resistance' (what is it ? I'm only familiar with that term when talking about electrolytic capacitors) of 3.6 ohm ?


One thing I failed to mention in the original story; it doesn't cog. To me this comes as no surprize but it might be an interesting observation to others.


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:05:36 AM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

Flux

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 11:19:40 AM »
Peter

You don't specifically mention voltage but I see from your graph that it is 12v.


If you cut in at 250rpm. at 1000 rpm you will have an open circuit voltage of 48v.


That is 36v above battery voltage and you are charging at 10A. the equivalent series resistance will be 36/10 =3.6 0hms.


I really can't believe your 130 milliohms on the new winding, it may have been possible with 1/4 the turns on the original winding.


If you have 260 mOhms as you claim then the thing should reach 10A at a much lower speed. At 1000rpm the current would be 36/.23 =256A plus or minus a bit for factors we can't allow for.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:19:40 AM by Flux »

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 11:36:42 AM »
Oh dear, this is embarassing...


As I was reading your reply I was thinking to myself 'that Flux isn't an easy person to convince. I'll bring along the camera and make a picture of the meter reading'.


After setting everything up again I noticed the meter overflowed. Anyway, to make a long story short, I know what I did wrong. The 131 milli-ohm reading was wrong by a factor 10.


Here's the picture that I made of it. To prove it was -really- 131 milli-ohm... Sigh. In reality, it is 1.31 ohm per phase. So in star about 2.3 ohm source impedance (when only taking into account the resistive component).





Thanks for the explanation on equivalent series resistance. But wouldn't 'source impedance' (or, the resistive component of the source impedance) be a more accurate description ?


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:36:42 AM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

Jeff

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 11:54:10 AM »
Still...all-in-all, GREAT JOB! I'd love to have time to make a few of those! Hell, I'd love to have one!
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:54:10 AM by Jeff »

Flux

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 12:09:18 PM »
That's better.


Not sure what we should call it, the rest of the world doesn't feed its alternators into rectifiers and batteries.


For a normal alternator the thing is the synchronous impedance consisting on a resistive bit and a reactive bit due to leakage reactance.


I normally think about air gap machines and there is no measurable reactive component.


In your case there is no significant reactance as the line is straight. As the conduction in this case is via 2 leads of the alternator at any instant it would seem reasonable that we could use the measured resistance to determine the current but it always gives the wrong answer. For most air gap machines the thing behaves as though it has a resistance of about 1.3 times the measured value so I just call it the equivalent resistance. In your case the factor seems worse  3.6/2.3 = 1.56


When there is significant reactance the rectifiers operate with overlap and the thing is too complex for me to make sense of.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:09:18 PM by Flux »

SparWeb

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 12:12:04 PM »
Peter,


Success at Last!  and it looks fantastic!


Do you have any thoughts, now, about the value of rewinding versus using the stock wire?  Did you take any measurements from the stock wire?


The practicality of converting motors hinges on having a lathe available.  When you do, making the rotor goes from difficult to fun, and you have time left over to concentrate on other details.


I look forward to seeing it in the air!

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:12:04 PM by SparWeb »
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System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 12:20:07 PM »
One possible explanation I have is that battery voltage didn't remain at 12V when charging at 10A, not by far. It was just a small 7 Ah battery I used. I wasn't measuring terminal voltage during this part of the lathe test (measuring RPMs and current kept me busy enough as it was).


It's likely that battery voltages was more in the order of 15-16 (or even more ?) volts when charging at 10 A. That would bring it closer in line to your empirical factor of 1.3


Maybe I'll drag a few more batteries to the lathe and make a larger 12V battery bank to test with. A bank that should have no trouble absorbing 10+ A.


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:20:07 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 12:34:14 PM »
Steven,


The motor was originally a 2 pole with 2 pole stator. I doubt it would have put out much with my new 8 pole rotor :)


I was thinking about a comparison to the stockwinding as well today. The closest reference I have is my 130 W genny (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49).


They're about the same physical size. The grey, non-rewound one puts out 130 W @ 48 V and 1000 RPM. Charge curve is somewhere in the above link too. But, the 130 W (grey) genny does suffer from reactance limiting at its top end; the charge curve definitely flattens near the 1000 RPM.


With stockwinding the 130 W grey genny would cut-in at ~100 RPM for a 12V system. Not practical for a HAWT. With stockwinding it would make a decent 48V genny though.


I figure both gennies are pretty comparable w.r.t. watts output; the 130 W is a 4 pole genny with stockwinding that puts out 130W @ 48 at 1000 RPM. The Blue Boy puts out ~120 W @ 12V and 1000 RPM. So, basically, by rewinding I figure I have managed to obtain the 130 W output at a much lower voltage (12V vs. 48V). And it does now cut-in at 250 RPM, which is also more reasonable than the 100 RPM for the non-rewound generator.


I'm looking forward to seeing it fly too. Just don't hold your breath; you might end up a bit blue in the face ;)


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:34:14 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

Flux

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 12:35:57 PM »
Peter

You are probably right about the battery voltage, be interesting to see the factor at constant volts.


Steven

For 48v then the stock winding may sometimes work out fairly well but the mess to get it down to 12v must be detrimental especially being forced to use delta.


Also in this case I doubt that the 2 pole winding would have been very effective without monster magnets to force the flux through the long magnetic circuit. I think Zubbly always said that the results were better with more poles. For 24 slot you are stuck with 8 but for 36 slots then 12 pole would probably be better.


Approximating 2 or 4 pole without proper arc shape magnets is likely to be a fair compromise whatever you do.


I also agree about the lathe, I wouldn't touch a motor conversion ( or any radial) without a lathe. ( come to think of it, how can a man live without a lathe anyway?)


Flux

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:35:57 PM by Flux »

SparWeb

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2008, 12:52:18 PM »
I have another few motor conversion candidates in my garage.  One is a 2-pole 5HP, and judging by what you're saying, it's truly worth it to re-wind this one.  I also have another 4-pole, so maybe a direct comparison is possible...


I'm having pretty good results with Delta, though I know what you mean Flux, it's not ideal.  Parallel-star was an option, too.  I want to try that next time the mill is down for inspection.


I visited "lforbes" the other day.  There's a lot going on in his garage!  He has a promising conversion under consideration, too.  I think he's going to get me moving sooner on building another motor conversion for myself, too.


Peter, after producing so many FEMM models, have you tried taking the Flux (Webers) numbers and working out voltage/RPM estimates?  I tried a bit, and there's some promise there.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:52:18 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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PHinker

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 01:27:59 PM »
Very nice, clear explanation.  Not to high-jack the thread but there have been a couple comments about lathes and it's a piece of equipment I'm looking to add to my shop.  Does anyone have recommendations as to a good candidate lathe for someone looking to do conversions?


Thanks in advance,

Paul

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 01:27:59 PM by PHinker »

vawtman

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 01:35:56 PM »
Paul thats a classic hi jack.I dont mean to but.....im trying


 Nice work again Peter.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 01:35:56 PM by vawtman »

oztules

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 04:19:44 PM »
Beautiful work Peter.


It puts my quick 3kw 415v 3ph rewind to shame. It would be true to say that I am jealous of your good workmanship.


I won't put a link to my rewind because it is disgustingly agricultural by comparison.... (green is the colour of the day now)


.........oztules

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 04:19:44 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

vawtman

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2008, 04:57:08 PM »
Peter you have accomplished what only a few here could after all Zubbs advice to help everyone.


 I remember in my early days(motorhead2)i had no clue about conversions but could replace bearings and inspect endbells.Without his(z's) advice i probably wouldn't have seen my first sparks.


 Now it's up to you to carry the torch.You got the talent.


 I have torn motors apart winding by winding and stator lams,lam by lam also, rotor lams, lam by lam in attempt to make a more efficient coversion over the stock winding.


 My stock 5hp wasn't the greatest but learned alot during the process.


Now your next assignment,


 Skew the stator on that 10hp and set it up 12pl.:>)


Mark

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 04:57:08 PM by vawtman »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 07:47:34 PM »
That's what's happening.  You're looking at the charging current vs. RPM-implied generated voltage.  So you're not just measuring the resistance of the genny.  You're adding in the battery resistance (along with the other wiring resistance and the slope of the rectifiers' non-linear E/I curve).
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 07:47:34 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

methanolcat

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 09:01:26 PM »
congratulations peter on a job well done


    Very long post for me on dial up, but well worth it, nice pic's and description. Having done one myself I understand the time and effort involved in a conversion, but isn't it a great feeling once done.


   Post's like this is what keeps me coming here on a daily basis, keep up the good work, it is appreciated by more than just yourself (speaking for many I'm sure).


   I look forward to seeing that 10hp conversion as well, I'm sure Zubbly would be proud to see his work continuing on.


Matt

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 09:01:26 PM by methanolcat »

sPuDd

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 10:49:22 PM »
Always top work from you Dinges :-)

Also, your posting is the first one where I have seen

HOW to get the windings IN and OUT of a conversion.

So far that step has been "...now rewind it.." which

was like leaving the money shot out of a smut flick :-p

Now it makes much more sense. I might even have a go

at my 250W blue boy that I quit on.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/23/94016/5550


Thankyou,


sPuDd..

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 10:49:22 PM by sPuDd »

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2008, 05:08:40 AM »
Mark,


I just re-read an older story (link by Spudd below) that I contributed to about 1.5 years ago. Without wanting to sound like I'm an expert but it's simply scary how quickly progress is being made. I had the same feeling when reading Zubbly's first posts on this board.


As far as the next assignment goes: funny you mention skewing the stator. Because that's one other thing Zubbly kept telling me that was very easy to do, not as hard as I feared (rather: fear). But, I still don't really feel like messing with a stator if there's even a small possibility of doing it another way. Then again, I said that about rewinding too just half a year ago :)


The 10 hp will be converted slightly differently: the stator will remain as it is but the rotor will be cleverly manipulated again. In this case using the 'Jam' offset method (but I understand Jacques learned it from Victor, another old-time contributor to this board; maybe it should be called the Victor-method instead ? ;) ). Since the rotor needs to be made from scratch anyway I figure it's much easier to just decog the rotor and leave the stator where it is: nice and snug in its enclosure.


But who knows what I'll be doing in another year's time. Maybe then I'll be advocating skewing the stator too, LOL.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 05:08:40 AM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2008, 05:35:05 AM »
Steven,


Those look like nice possible victims. Would be nice to see how they perform and compare to eachother.


There's one other thing I failed to mention in the original post. It took relatively a lot of time and effort to make this 'tiny' conversion. I initially kept score of the amount of time I had invested but quickly lost count. With hardly any extra effort one could easily convert a 3, 5 or even 10 hp motor. All it would take is a little more copper wire and perhaps 100$ more in magnets. But nearly the same time and labour. And the difference in output between the next 10 hp and this genny is probably well over 20:1.


My point being: it's a relatively useless thing to convert small motors, apart from learning how-to. With nearly the same effort one could build something that -really- can put some juice into a battery. Your candidates for conversion sound like just the ticket. Another advantage of larger conversions: much easier to physically work on. My hands don't fit inside the stator bore of this generator, but they do fit inside the stator of the 10 hp (hm, I can nearly put my head in there as well... :) )


I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by the FEMM modeling; you mean trying to simulate average flux density and then correlating that to the RPM/V of different gennies ? That would be an idea, yes, but one has to keep in mind that it probably also depends on the number of poles, the number of turns in the coils, the number of coils and perhaps some other things I haven't thought of.


So, it should really be something like RPM per volt per pole per turn per unit of flux ? (or perhaps easier: volt per RPM per pole per turn per unit of Flux)


If you tell me what data you'd need (that I haven't given yet) I'll gladly give it to you. Would be nice to have some (rough) rules of thumb for designing conversions from scratch. Making a FEMM model of it shouldn't be too much work, I already have the CAD drawings so would just have to import it into FEMM to run the simulation. 10 minutes of work. Will do that later this weekend.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 05:35:05 AM by dinges »
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oztules

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2008, 06:45:58 AM »
sPuDd,


When I did my rewind, I wound three coils at once for a concentric wind pole. This introduces a few extra problems with trying to wiggle the coils into the stator slots.(the problems of slot fill verses terminating all the coils ends... I felt slot fill for three joined coils was the lesser evil)


I had difficulty with the first coil of the three, worse with the second and didn't bother even starting the third until I came up with a better way.


What I found was the greatest help was to get 2 pieces of your slot paper... say 2"  wide x the length of the stator, and tape them to the inside of the stator so that only the slots you were currently interested in are exposed (dont worry about the inner slots between, just the 2 slots your working on and outside them.)


Your coil will be too wide to bother falling into the inner slots.


When the paper is in place, put the coil inside the stator, and the wires will almost fall into the slots because there is nowhere else to go or drop into.


Once I discovered this, it took no more than 2-3 mins to put 75turn coils into their respective slots, and was just as easy for the last coil as the first.


Without those pieces of tape and paper, it was absolute hell, and maybe 10-15mins per slot. The difference in ease is astronomic.


go for it


........oztules

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 06:45:58 AM by oztules »
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TomW

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2008, 07:22:03 AM »
Dinges;


Hey, you and the fungal unit have to stop posting these doer projects. Can't let folks know that anyone in IRC actually does anything real.


Next thing you know, we will get too popular like Fieldlines has and have to deal with all the know it alls like we do here.


You guys do us proud. And thats not easy for me to say to Europeans, either. ;=]


Anyway, thanks for sharing the process.


TomW

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 07:22:03 AM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2008, 07:58:45 AM »
Nice work Peter.

On the conversion and the write up.


I like the paper trick.

G-

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 07:58:45 AM by ghurd »
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dinges

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« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 08:13:05 AM by dinges »
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fungus

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2008, 08:15:47 AM »
Looks very nice ..

Maybe I'll do another motor conversion after I've finished the vawt :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 08:15:47 AM by fungus »

dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2008, 08:20:22 AM »
"I like the paper trick."


Not my idea. Shamelessly stolen from Zubbly :)


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/zubbly/3hpelectro14


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 08:20:22 AM by dinges »
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SparWeb

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2008, 10:08:41 AM »
That's interesting.  I decided to make the integration area half-way up the tooth, not at its face.  Looking back, I'm not sure why I did.  Maybe I found some leakage flux and wanted to stay away from it, and not capture any "wandering" lines.  I ran a lot of trials doing "wrong" things like open the gap way up, just to see what happened; if it was predictable.


I have taken a few later steps and if only I had some free time, I would re-write the analysis based on what you built.  At the moment, it's just "math".  I need some well-documented examples to see if it's anything more than that.  You've provided it.


Thank you very much.


And stay tuned... :^)

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 10:08:41 AM by SparWeb »
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dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2008, 03:17:09 PM »
I just made a rough measurement of iron losses using scales.


Turns out it needs about 0.5 N (0.05 kgf) to turn the rotor smoothly and evenly at a slow speed. Arm length 25 cm.


P = F * v

v= omega * r

omega = 2*pi*f

f= n/60


Putting it all together:


Ploss = F * 2 * pi * n * r / 60


At 500 RPM:

Ploss = 0.5 * 2 * pi * 500 * 0.25 / 60 = 6.5 W

(with an electrical output of 3.5 A @ 13 V = 12.5 % power loss)


At 1000 RPM:

Ploss = 0.5 * 2 * pi * 1000 * 0.25 / 60 = 13 W

(with an electrical output of 10 A @ 13 V, so about 10 % power loss)


At cut-in (250 RPM) the power loss would be 3.25 W.


So roughly 10-12.5 % loss in the stator iron (and bearings) over the 500-1000 RPM range. I need to make some more accurate measurements (the force could be 0.4 or 0.6 N as well...), but in that order of magnitude are the iron-losses for this particular conversion.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 03:17:09 PM by dinges »
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SparWeb

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 03:35:15 PM »
This is consistent with the results when I tested mine for the same thing.  I have greater losses, but they are about the same when scaled down to equivalent power output.  The stator of my machine is enormous.


Don't be afraid to try a "shorted" torque test, too.  It will tell you if the "brakes" work even in high winds.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 03:35:15 PM by SparWeb »
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dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2008, 08:38:07 AM »
Was lying awake last night wondering what the waveshape of the conversion looked like. Was it sinusoid or distorted as in the 130 W conversion (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49/130W_conversion_cancellation)


Only one way to find out, I suppose...





Zoomed in a bit more:





As usual, more pictures in the gallery (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album69).


Didn't unleash a Fourrier transform on the waveshape but at least it -looks- to be much more of a sinusoid than the waveshape of the 130 W (grey) conversion. Not sure what the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of it is. Nor even that it matters for battery charging. But still, I get a warm fuzzy feeling when looking at the waveshape.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 08:38:07 AM by dinges »
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DamonHD

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2008, 09:55:44 AM »
Warm and fuzzy...


If it looks like a sine unloaded, is smooth like a sine unloaded, and charges a battery, does anyone hear?  B^>


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 09:55:44 AM by DamonHD »
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dinges

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Re: 500 W motorconversion finished
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2008, 12:10:32 PM »
Just for clarity as I didn't mention this in my previous post, this was an unloaded test, no battery was connected. If I had connected a battery and rectifiers the waveshape would likely look very different.


Not sure if there was some misunderstanding about this but it's better to be clear.


Peter.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 12:10:32 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)