Author Topic: spinning my wheels  (Read 2680 times)

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quatrognome

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spinning my wheels
« on: May 04, 2008, 02:21:33 AM »
Okay, I'm not sure if this has been covered but would it be possible to put the same type of generator as in a wind turbine in a car's rims in the form of say a spinner? i know it isn't exactly the main purpose of the site but the technology is the same if not very similar. I have instead of 1 battery have two or three one charging one idle and one driving the vehicle just a thought.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 02:21:33 AM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2008, 08:55:30 PM »
gnome;


There is a question in there?


Reads to me like a bunch of disconnected thoughts.


Clarification may be in order if folks are to understand.


Tom

« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 08:55:30 PM by TomW »

joestue

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2008, 09:05:34 PM »
over unity anyone?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 09:05:34 PM by joestue »
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

zeusmorg

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2008, 09:14:28 PM »
Sounds like you're attempting to create overunity.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 09:14:28 PM by zeusmorg »

12AX7

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2008, 10:01:37 PM »
Like most others I too don't believe in "over unity" kinda like believing in an honest government.


However, I don't think this is all that silly of an idea looking at it from another view.


If one were to use the alternator/generator as a "braking system" and instead of heating up brakes/rotors dump the energy into a storage system.


This same idea is used in re-gen systems.


I'd guess that braking isn't the only time one could "re-coup" energy, such as while driving down steep grades ect....

« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 10:01:37 PM by 12AX7 »

terry5732

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2008, 10:03:49 PM »
The weight of additional batteries will decrease your mileage.


The drag of a generator will decrease your mileage.


A simpler method to decrease your mileage would be to disconnect one spark plug wire.


Good luck.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 10:03:49 PM by terry5732 »

tecker

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 05:43:56 AM »
You can put a generator in many places on a vehical and thay work fine . the wheels are going to take a lot of abuse sobe smart .
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 05:43:56 AM by tecker »

finnsawyer

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »
The re-gen idea using electric motors to power the vehicle and to recapture some of the energy during braking has been around for a while.  Funny thing is that there doesn't seem to be any hard data.  Nothing wrong with thinking "out of the box", though.  What do they do on the current crop of hybrid vehicles?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 08:31:03 AM by finnsawyer »

quatrognome

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2008, 09:36:09 AM »


  1. not looking for over unity. to achieve over unity you have to produce more energy than what is used to create the motion that creates the energy. last time i checked putting a turbine to a tire was a way to test it. I'm just thinking further out of the box. i left the testing box way behind and landed in a weird one that gives me silly ideas. sorry if it seemed like i wanted over unity. The ideas aren't as silly as disproving laws of physics though.
  2. I'm looking for a way to increase the potential time between charges on say an electric car or motorcycle. i thought a natural form of power generation would be better. Maybe i am foolish for this belief but i will hold fast to it for now.
  3. i was thinking of a battery configuration along the lines of it draws power from one then when it is drained the second one kicks in the third goes into trickle and the now empty one goes into quick charge mode which is possible in some newer batteries
  4. They already make wheels with spinners in them.I should point out that spinners use centrifugal force to continue spinning so yeah it is different forces powering it. So yes it may increase drag and if so yes less miles but if has an increased ability to recharge the batteries why is it a bad idea? if it is possible to get even one extra battery's worth of power from this as long as the loss isn't too much it would be good right?
  5. as to the abuse aspect i was thinking an aluminum rim with a metal spinner with the stator affixed to the rim and the spinner house the magnets  with something that holds the wire in place while the wheel spins.


     A. i am wondering however if the magnets would be strong enough to attract  scraps of metal as they spin. while driving.


does this help clear up stuff? can anyone help?

« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 09:36:09 AM by quatrognome »

methanolcat

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2008, 10:12:51 AM »
I think this may be what your thinking of doing http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2008-03/how-it-works-tomorrows-hybrid , sorry research and development are already being done in that field.


    In answer to your question, no, I don't believe we have covered that on this site before.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 10:12:51 AM by methanolcat »

methanolcat

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 10:18:10 AM »
   Sorry, a little off from your spinner idea, but I was a little confused. You can try the spinner idea but I myself don't see it working.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 10:18:10 AM by methanolcat »

spinningmagnets

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2008, 05:26:19 PM »
The spinners only look like they're spinning when the car comes to a stop. When the car is driving, the wheel and spinner would be rotating at nearly the same speed.


If you are dedicated to making this work, you could make something similar to an anemometer or a shallow VAWT on the spinner so it rotates in the opposite direction from the wheel.


If you apply a load to the coils, such as charging a battery, either the spinner will stop regardless of wind while creating drag because the VAWT is so small, or it will generate a tiny amount of watts while creating drag.


It would work, but it would add complexity, weight, and cost to each wheel that was configured this way, in exchange for a tiny benefit. If the stator was on the wheel, you'd have to get the electricity to the battery through brushes.


Another bad idea that might be slightly better, would be to add magnets to the inside of the rear wheels and mount a stator onto the rear brakes, no brushes that way.


Regen isnt very productive because batteries can't absorb all the available power coming back when a hybrid is slowing down, but the hybrids all have it because "every little bit helps". There is some work going on with paralleling large capacitors with the battery, to absorb more the regen.


Slowing down is typically much less than 10% of a trip on average, so regen will never be a huge benefit.


Putting anything into the wind off of a car to capture some energy adds so much drag and losses, several electric vehicles have used a gasoline-powered generator on a aero-trailer to add range on occasional long trips.


There's a lot of experience using regen on electric scooters, but the major benefit seems to be the brakes last a very long time. On electric bicycles, the vehicle is so light, regen can lock up the wheels, so E-bike regen is usually adjustable (also meaning even less regen gets back into the battery).

« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 05:26:19 PM by spinningmagnets »

mbeland

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 09:06:16 PM »
I have read on a few web sites about converting a gazoline powered car into electric. Your best bet for having regen and not losing too much in losses of all sorts is to chose an electric motor that can do motor and generator. These motors exist but drastically increase the cost of a conversion. You have to add to that that you also need an adapted controller. Personnally, if I were to convert a car to electric, which I wish I will do sometime, I would stick with a simple series motor, no regen, to make it affordable. Unless of course prices for such stuff decrease due to demand by that time...


Martin

« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 09:06:16 PM by mbeland »

wooferhound

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 11:12:34 PM »
Here is someone else with exactly the same idea . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/4/24/162823/280
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 11:12:34 PM by wooferhound »

zeusmorg

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2008, 02:35:52 AM »
 ok, from your original statement it looks like you wish to charge one set of batteries from the driven wheel, WHILE running the vehicle from another set...


 Using regenerative braking will extend charge time, recouping some of the energy losses.. and saving heat from brake friction..


 HOWEVER,, trying to charge while attempting to propel the car forward IS A LOSS.


 Don't believe me? then try an experiment. take your 12 v battery run a motor off of it. Then connect an alternator to the motor. Then charge a battery off that. When the first one runs down, switch.. Your run time will get progressively less.


 And this is not moving anything in a forward direction , it would be static.


 Do it and you will begin to see why i simply stated "overunity anyone".  


 The inefficiencies alone in each step will eat up your power.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:35:52 AM by zeusmorg »

TomW

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 08:56:56 AM »
Zeus;


Hey, no fair injecting reality into such an awesome idea.


Funny how he doesn't "get" that the power generated has to come from somewhere.


It was clear from the recent dialog on IRC that this person does not understand this basic but crucial point, despite our best efforts to explain it.


Sorry for the reality check raining on your parade, quatrognome, but this is right up there with mounting a wind turbine on a car to extend range.


It is also very far off topic here.


Tom

« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 08:56:56 AM by TomW »

quatrognome

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Re: spinning my wheels
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2008, 07:06:53 AM »
I get the idea and i understand it.  I haven't been around as i was studying more about this stuff. including talking to my friend who is an engineer. Makes my head hurt sometimes but i understand sometimes my own creativity gets in the way of reality. That and lack of sleep. i do understand though. just takes time to sink in sadly. Sorry for any annoyance i caused
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 07:06:53 AM by quatrognome »