Author Topic: Electric Recumbent Trike (Read 23330 times)

huntedheads · « **Reply #33 on:** June 09, 2009, 05:37:49 PM »

Yes I'm almost 6'2" makes the bike look small, and you are rite the batteries were different then 1 12 amp and 1 14 amp now they are both 14 amp

(my mistake have 4 of them) The controller is a 35 amp non programmable controller that came on the original wrecked bike and the speed control is a variable voltage twist grip just like you were on a motorcycle. And I am still waiting on the wife to make the saddle bags! Do you see this Bonnie??

zeusmorg · « **Reply #34 on:** June 10, 2009, 03:44:53 PM »

I finally got a reply, It looks like a became enough of a pain to get a response.

"Apologies for not replying your e-mail, my supervisor have told me about this issue. We were busy with the development of the Magic Pie motor these two weeks at the factory. We will send you a replacement controller as soon as possible. Please do not be angry, we just need more time, our staff are all very busy."

Well, I suppose I'll see..

Simen · « **Reply #35 on:** June 12, 2009, 01:58:16 PM »

Good to hear you're getting a replacement, and they at least sounds a bit humble - finally...

I've just ordered the 36V 750W motor myself, so i'll see if it's really worth it...

If not, it can certsinly be used in a windgen?!

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 13, 2009, 09:35:34 AM »

LOL I was thinking it was like dealing with dell tech support, but you beat me to it! haha

zeusmorg · « **Reply #37 on:** June 13, 2009, 11:53:08 AM »

It would probably make a better windgen than the f&p's, but kinda expensive way to go about it!

zeusmorg · « **Reply #38 on:** June 15, 2009, 12:47:31 AM »

A little update on my progress:

I decided to reduce the voltage on my battery packs, and I now have 1 pack at 48v@ 7.8A

After a lot of investigation, I found a few more +5v taps on the controller, and so in the spirit of seeing just how far I could mess things up, I wired one to the throttle, (still awaiting the new controller) and VOILA! It works!

I took it out for a ride tonight, and loved it! The hub motor was very smooth and powerful. So,I decided to give it my EXTREME test. There is one hill nearby that is a real KILLER! I could barely make it up on my road bike back when I was in good shape, so it is a real good test of power!

Well..... it did ok.. to a point, the motor was fine, however I believe my battery pack was undersized for the challenge. It would completely cut out, then re-set and then be fine, just to cut out again.

That was the ONLY problem I encountered on my approx 8 mile ride. I just wish I'd read my spedo instruction manual a bit better, I obviously did not re-set it properly to record the trip!.

The location (currently) is in a place that i cannot see while riding. I did try once, and it looked like it was 32 mph, not sure though.

Upon returning, my indicator lights (not very accurate way of determining anything, I know) still showed "full"

Overall I was extremely pleased with this test. Oh the current battery pack is weighing in at 24 lbs, so I don't think doubling the size would hurt me in the least, as far as weight goes.

I also added more pics to the anotherpower album.

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Recumbent-trike

Simen · « **Reply #39 on:** June 15, 2009, 01:53:23 AM »

I couldn't help noticing what looked like a not-so-good soldering on the point marked +5 on the 5-pin X2 header... Would this header be the one to the throttle?

Also, following the trace on the pcb, it doesn't seems that they use a common +5V source either... looks like each of the two marked +5V points goes to separate transistors via diodes.

Maybe they're drawing +5V directly from some outputs on what looks like a PIC controller... And in my experience; those outputs doesn't respond too well to abuse...

Cornelius

zeusmorg · « **Reply #40 on:** June 15, 2009, 04:47:33 AM »

Actually, the pin you saw is the supply for the hall sensors, the throttle sensor supply is upper left on x1. It does look bad,but it tested out ok.. the supply i used is off x3 bottom It supplies the pedelec system, and if that goes out, I won't cry anyway as it's not really needed in the US.

Simen · « **Reply #41 on:** June 15, 2009, 06:09:53 AM »

as long as you don't run out of working +5V points...

Bruce S · « **Reply #42 on:** June 15, 2009, 02:37:43 PM »

Z-

The reading full is actually an indicator of the NiCds. They will read 48V until they're just about belly-up. Which at that point will be 98% empty. They'll bounce back with a good slow charge, and can be good for NiCds to "stress" them every once in a while.

The cut-out re-set is probably a NiCd to wire heat problem. Can't pull enough current out without a voltage slump.

I've seen this happen even on higher Ahr battery packs, have a look at the wire going from the packs to the rest of the system. LOOK for over heated wire, soft wire, something that would look like a soldering iron got too close.

What you're also possibly seeing is what I've noticed from 12V systems using NiCds, I attrib it to being a voltage slump. I've gone to building them up for 14.4V systems. What I've seen, under heavy loads, the 12V which is right at 12V if using the 10-cell count is right at 12V and most controllers are designed to see this as the system getting low on voltage; they're wanting to see that magic 13V for a good charged system. Think of the 12V level as being the LVD for a controller.

If you had them built up as 14.4V system before, I would think the system would work just fine. The unit would be built up for 13.8Vx4= ~55V. A NiCd system at 14.4x4= ~58, well within limits.

For using somthing other than L_A based batts, a watt's-up meter will be a very good gas-guage :]

PS> I use 12ga multi-stranded wire for batt-to-batt wire and 10ga to controller.

Best of Luck!

Bruce S

zeusmorg · « **Reply #43 on:** June 15, 2009, 05:46:45 PM »

Found the problem,one of the smaller "packs" was bad. I'll have to cut it apart and replace it. Internal resistance on it was probably too high.

I need to re-think how I'm assembling these packs, I need easy disassembly in case of failure of smaller units within.

I have considered the watts-up but i've heard their customer relations is a bitch to deal with too!

Of course, I haven't found a better solution to onboard power management yet. I know the lights are a piss poor indicator especially on nicads!

I'm really shooting for more amperage for my "main" onboard pack so it can get up that hill! I figure doubling the size of it will do the trick. It's just kinda trial and error at this point, working out the pack size,and where/how to mount it.I'd rather not have the main pack hanging off my rack, as it is now I'd rather get the weight lower and more firmly mounted. Of course I know I'll have to end up building it all myself.

BTW controller is at the post office..(damn mailman, movie says he knocks twice, but mine doesn't even knock ONCE, just leaves the notification)

arc · « **Reply #44 on:** June 15, 2009, 07:43:38 PM »

Hi Zeus,

Glad to hear that the controller has arrived, or at least will be available tomorrow.

I was looking at the side view of you bike and noticed that there is a fair amount of room behind (or below the back) of your seat that might be another place to consider mounting some batteries. Sounds like your the current setup did well even up the tough test hill. I think Bruce has a good point about building up your battery packs for 14.4V vs. 12V ... that's probably a good call on what's happening with the cut-out.

I think you'll definitely want a good voltage meter (gas gauge) but after you ride your bike for a while you'll also get a good feel for how long the batteries will last. Sounds like you'll get some nice range from a pack double current size (perhaps with the higher voltage to get away from the cut-out).

I'm curious, are you getting a pretty good deal on the individual Ni-Cd cells?

I may consider investing in Ni-Cads and building my own packs when my current SLA's give out.

I have 36Ah@24V but have to consider that only about half of this is usable Ah's since I don't ever run them down below 50% SOC. I could get away with around 20Ah in Ni-Cd to get the same distance ride. I may ask you more about how you're building the packs if that's OK.

Best of Luck in all,

Dave

(arc)

Bruce S · « **Reply #45 on:** June 16, 2009, 07:54:03 AM »

arc;

Z- is one of the "field" testers for the Sub-C NiCd repurpose progam, I implemented here at work.

There are others, but alas, I am not yet able to add any new testers while the machine I use to make sure the NiCds are safe to repurpose is off getting its calibration checkup.

The reason we use these NiCds are many, but the main reason is the relativley low cost compared to buying new and the thrill of being challenged to be different :]

People that are testing these for different purposes have gone through being able to show that they won't hurt themselves while reworking these packs, and Z- will tell you there's some WORK involved .

Going the route of NiCds can be an expensive one up front, as most items you can tell are built with L_A batts in mind.

There are a couple places on line with will custom build a pack for you, and they are a VERY good option. The newer Sub-Cs, & up have a very good current to weight ratio.

Do a google search here on the forum, for Z-, Ghurd, Norm. They have tons of posts about using NiCds, this can help you plan yours out.

Using batt packs other than L_A types will need planing, not just Ahr, but size, layout, charging, etc.

Sorry I can't yet add people, but do hope this helps you.

Bruce S

zeusmorg · « **Reply #46 on:** June 16, 2009, 08:30:56 AM »

Well, you know the help is totally appreciated, and yes, re-doing existing packs is WORK! Not to mention all that paperwork, and testing procdures to match batteries together etc..

I do think I have come up with a good way of doing so.

First i fully charge each pack, then test it for voltage and internal resistance once it sits for 24 hours. If the total pack doesn't measure up, them It's teardown time.then testing each individual cell. finding the bad ones cutting them out. adding as necessary.

I use copper foil strips (used in making stained glass) to repair the connections cut. It solders easy to the remaining tabs and carries current well.

I eventually plan on going with Li fe po's for the weight to power ratio.

I also probably should've taken your advice on reducing my voltage per pack initially, would've saved me some time. It has been interesting playing around with it all, though.

arc · « **Reply #47 on:** June 16, 2009, 08:40:50 AM »

Hi Bruce,

"but do hope this helps you"

It does indeed Bruce, hopefully I can get some more life from my SLA's, I've been keeping them charged by piggybacking them via jumper cables in parallel with my AGM's and I think they may not be getting quite what they need in terms of top end voltage with the resistance from the jumper cables and no direct feedback to my charger ...

so I plan on charging the two separately for a while to see if it makes any difference.

Point is that I've got some time before I need to get new storage but want to learn more about my options. It would be wonderful to get away from the obvious weight issue of the SLA's.

Sure do like Z's trailer plan, it would be great to have the nice lightweight set for local runs around but have the ability to hook up a trailer and go the distance.

We have some real nice camping areas about 8 miles from here and I did make it there and back on my SLA's when they were new but I don't think I'd try it now without some spare storage. Trailer would be nice, I may see what I can come up with to build one myself.

You're right, there's a lot to know about NiCd's and I'm at the bottom of that learning curve right now. I do think they suite the use pattern of an ebike nicely.

They seem to take the rapid discharge, fairly quick charge routine pretty well.

In fact they tend to even flourish when put to work. My experience in NiCd's comes from their use for power tools and I know they don't really like to be left idle but would rather be used every day.

I'll do some searches to get up to speed on NiCd's while my SLA's are still working ... then I'll be a bit more prepared when the time comes to get more storage.

Thanx,

arc

Bruce S · « **Reply #48 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:09:21 AM »

arc;

I am currently building a trailer based off this one "http://www.appropedia.org/Bike_trailer" since we have an e-scooter I am of course re-doing the tongue so there's a full range of motion when making runs to store and back.

The biggest mod I'm doing is building a battery box in a type of sub-floor for the trailer, this way the goodies can be trucked on top and the batts kept safe from or doing harm. The hardest part will be running wires, but I think trailer hitch types will be easy to do along with some LED brake lights for it.

There does seem to be a price to energy break point where L_A based batts become a better idea based on the batts we're using and the need for higher current draw.

Cheers

Bruce S

zeusmorg · « **Reply #49 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:41:59 AM »

I don't know if i've mentioned it in this yet, but a trailer is in the works , also.

Some preliminary pictures are at anotherpower mainly the way i'm raidusing the end cuts.

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Recumbent-trike/Tube_cutting_jig

arc · « **Reply #50 on:** June 16, 2009, 02:10:10 PM »

Cool, thanks Bruce ... thanks Zeus for the pics and ideas on the trailers.

I'd think a standard small trailer electrical connection would work great for bring the wires up to the bike. You'd probably want some multi-strand copper like a set of jumper cables for a nice flexible conductor from the batteries.

I like the "Under the floor" plan Bruce, good idea and keeps the center of gravity low also.

The crutches look like they'll make some nice tubing framework Zeus.

Thanks for the links guys!

I have yet to install a rack on the tail of my bike but will certainly keep in mind the possibility of pulling a trailer with it in the future which will influence my design a bit. I would imagine a properly balanced trailer wouldn't put a lot of stress on the "hitch" point. I liked the spring loaded ball connection you showed me before Zeus, looks like a good positive connection that should keep the trailer from swaying or moving around.

With the added weight of batteries on the trailers, do you think you can get away without brakes on the trailers? Perhaps you need a nice little hall sensor trailer brake setup... then again you might just want to go with the "KISS" approach to avoid more things that can go wrong. Maybe some regenerative trailer brakes ... or not.

arc

spinningmagnets · « **Reply #51 on:** June 16, 2009, 02:11:19 PM »

Brilliant tube-joint-cutting rig, Z !

Is that an aluminum crutch? I picked up one of those at the thrift store for $2 for the aluminum tubing, also got a couple worn-out weed-wackers from trash-day just for the Al tube.

zeusmorg · « **Reply #52 on:** June 16, 2009, 08:21:43 PM »

Yep. aluminum crutches,, goodwill specials so far i have 27 bux invested in the trailer. !0 in crutches, 10 for the wheels, and 7 for the hitch pin.

I'm going sans brakes and regen on the trailer would add too much cost for just a tiny benefit.

I'll have a pretty low COG on the trailer as the wheels are 10" solid rubber bike.

Hey the cost was right! and yes i have a front hub n a rear one w/coaster brake. but,, it's be a strange utilization of the coaster brake, I'd rather have matching hubs.

I imagine my "floor" will be a piece of masonite, cheap and durable.then netting for sides, and top, and maybe a cover that could be put in place. Not going super fancy here, just something functional!

zeusmorg · « **Reply #53 on:** June 17, 2009, 07:48:37 PM »

Well, I finally got the controller from Golden Motor yesterday, and now all the functions work as they should!

I went out for my first full test, and i was very pleased! On flats, i got 48 Kph

29,8 Mph with just the batteries. If i want to go faster I'll need a taller top gear as my cadence can't keep up!

I rode for a total of 14.7 miles. these tests are on a 7.8 Ahr battery pack @ 48v, or 374.4 watts, battery weight is at 23.5 lbs for that pack. And the pack wasn't totally drained at this point. These are used batteries, so they are not at 100% and that pack does have some bad cells in it I need to suss out.

I do need a larger Ahr pack and my target has always been 20Ahr on the bike itself, but that may be a bit heavy on it unless I can get the weight distributed better. One thing, these are the low capacity cells at 1300mAhr for each cell, so if I went with the high capacity nicads I'd get twice the wattage for the same weight.

One thing I haven't verified the accuracy of the speedometer or odometer as yet. So these tests may be inaccurate to some degree.

Of course this is an ongoing project and I'm not finished at this point!

More to come...

Bruce S · « **Reply #54 on:** June 18, 2009, 07:58:10 AM »

Nice jig :>

I'm using squared iron tubing, I can get it on the real cheap and since this will also be for grocery shopping along with extended e-scooter batts I'm a bit concerned about the Al failing.

Even though we live in the city, the rain here has caused some rather nasty pot-holes.

I've secured a couple nice 10" bike tires, (freecycle is a lovely thing) and have decided on going with a ball-n-tongue setup so I can swap to my 150/250cc scooter if I wish.

Had any time to work with the new controller yet?

Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #55 on:** June 18, 2009, 09:03:21 AM »

You are having way too much fun!!

Look out for the next round of rain to get in the way :>

Gald to read the controller is working out.

Our e-scooter setup is at 20Ahr, 48Vdc total pack weighs in at 42lbs versus 60lbs for 48V at 18Ahr SLAs plus there's the whole energy available to sue thing.

NiCds I've been using have been drawn down by 80% so 48Vx20Ahr gives me 960watts of that I can use 760 watts safely. 48Vx18Ahr gives me 864 watts and using 50% ( I know too much over the life of them) 430 watts. Using the NiCds gives me just short of twice the energy available for use.

Cheers;

Bruce S

zeusmorg · « **Reply #56 on:** June 18, 2009, 10:58:37 AM »

next round of rain?? LOL! I've ben dodging cluds to do these tests! I've NEVER seen this much continuous rain since the flood of '37 (wait i wasn't born yet)

zeusmorg · « **Reply #57 on:** June 27, 2009, 02:20:54 AM »

Well, It's time to post an update. I've built the 2nd battery pack and it is installed.I had some serious problems with the first box i built., I also decided to add fuses right AT the batteries. (an unshielded XLR connector welds aluminum @48v very nicely BTW)

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Recumbent-trike/V2batteries

Now that i have two 7.8Ahr packs installed (748.8W) the performance is MUCH better!

It can now climb my "test" hill unaided and without any low voltage cutouts. I would like to add a 3rd battery pack to get the range further.(even though as of now I'm not sure what that range is)

I've got a watts up that will be installed so that along with an accurate speedometer will allow me to get some testing done. Locating and mounting those along with a total system cutoff switch will be my next projects.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #58 on:** June 27, 2009, 09:51:57 AM »

This has become quite the project dude... Excellent so far and lots of good pics!

I love the homemade screwdriver BTW - LOL do designers really think that they will keep us out of this stuff?

Looking forward to more!

Steve

commanda · « **Reply #59 on:** June 27, 2009, 03:30:42 PM »

Zeus,

I've got the high power version of the Watts Up (Doc Wattson) on my scooter. With this unit, it is possible to crack it open, remove the internal shunt, and run some wires to a remote shunt. This allows to mount the meter at the handlebars, without running the high current cables to the meter and back again. The instructions were on the manufacturers website.

Amanda

zeusmorg · « **Reply #60 on:** June 27, 2009, 04:03:08 PM »

I'll have to look into that..

zeusmorg · « **Reply #61 on:** June 27, 2009, 09:51:00 PM »

Well, I've got some more test results to publish, and these are accurate. I verified the spedo accuracy,so at least I know these are good results..

Maximum speed on batteries alone 29.9mph

Maximum range on two 7.8Ahr packs @48v or 748.8W (the actual capacity MAY be lower on these I still think I have some bad cells in one pack) 14.9 Mi At that point a slight grade would cause cutout due to low voltage. I did manage to get 15.7 Mi but I had to do a bit of pedaling after the 14.9 point. This is with some hills, and one is rather a challenge.

The packs weren't fully discharged when I returned home, but close enough.

I'm still below my target Amperage of 20 Ahr for this setup, but this would easily do for most commutes!

zeusmorg · « **Reply #62 on:** August 15, 2009, 10:09:52 PM »

Well, It's been a while since I posted on this,time for a small update. I've been riding it quite a bit and I am happy with the overall results. I still have a few things to add on and time and other projects have sidelined me. The planned trailer is still not finished.

I have a Li-Fe_Po4 48v 20Ah/hr pack+BMS and charger on the way and I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of improvements it will make in the performance. I also have to add the watts up and do some re-wiring. I plan on building a custom fiberglass box for the battery pack and electronics this time to clean up and free up space.

I put about 12-20 miles a day on it now,and it does this just fine with my current set-up. I'm using a timer to ensure my batteries don't get overcharged at this point, and I do not consider this the ideal way to charge them, and a better scheme is in the works for that for the ni-cads.

News:

Author Topic: Electric Recumbent Trike (Read 23330 times)