Author Topic: Ultra-low-power Web server (Read 14417 times)

DamonHD · « **on:** July 03, 2009, 05:16:58 PM »

Hi,

I hope to run most of my Web sites, email, etc, off this (~5W) or something similar in the future (replacing my current ~18W laptop):

http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp

also see:

http://gbenson.net/?p=137

So I'm going to get familiar with this one since and wait for the new round of ARM-based netbooks/laptops and similar.

Uses less power than most lamps, even low-power lamps! Less than my ADSL Internet modem...

Rgds

Damon

dnix71 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2009, 01:10:52 PM »

Solid state hd? How much storage? Can you connect a local monitor? USB for keyboard and mouse is easy, but a usb to vga monitor would require a hardware adapter.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2009, 01:34:45 PM »

Interesting... was just talking about how to save juice using flash instead of spinning disk... this would be a more than significant improvement on even that idea...

DamonHD · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2009, 01:59:55 PM »

Hi,

It has a USB/serial console access for emergencies I guess but most of the time I'd access it as I do my current server, via SSH in one or more xterm sessions from my Mac or other laptop. No need for graphics support at all.

The plug has a slot for a SDHC memory card, ie up to 32GB.

I need something like 100GB+ storage, which I could do with a slowish external power-efficient hard disc or solid-state mass storage, which would have to be have a very power-efficient sleep mode. I would expect to cache frequently-accessed on the SDHC.

Unless I put in a USB hub (or put in some clever Ethernet based stuff for example) then I can't get at my current digital inputs of off-grid solar system battery state-of-charge and nor could I run my X-10 automation stuff. The former would be more of a shame than the latter.

In the end I may end up with something more like this which exposes more direct I/O:

http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/openrd.jsp

In any case there is real hope that it could be run 24x7 throughout the year from my 120Wp 12V.40Ah off-grid system that powers my office lighting.

The ADSL modem would remain on-grid for the time being.

Rgds

Damon

DamonHD · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »

Well, Linux laptop-mode seems to me to really cut consumption by the disc if you are careful to minimise spurious I/O (eg turning off atime (last-accessed timestamps on files) and verbose logging and so on.

And caching the frequently used stuff on a memory card to reduce the need for disc spinups yet further seems to work.

Basically I hope that getting away from the x86 to ARM will more than halve my consumption with a bit more careful trimming of my main applications, but I'll have to be very careful with the peripherals.

Rgds

Damon

scottsAI · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2009, 02:22:17 PM »

Hello Damon,

Looked at using a router?

http://www.dd-wrt.com/dd-wrtv3/index.php

Install Linux, HDD etc.

CPU below 1ghz for the most part, not sure what horse power you need.

Bunch of support for IO.

Much cheaper than a laptop!

Have fun,

Scott.

DamonHD · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2009, 02:47:58 PM »

Hi,

Yes, indeed, and ideal would be to piggyback it all onto my ADSL router I think since that is going to be the most power-hungry part when I've done.

But I need (I think) at least 512MB main memory and preferably more, and at least 1GHz CPU when operating at maximum speed.

Rgds

Damon

commanda · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2009, 03:46:42 PM »

I want one of these.

http://www.mini-box.com/Samsung-S3C2440A-400MHz?sc=8&category=1130

I've also got a Seagate FreeAgent Go 120 Gb external usb hard drive; just a heads up but it doesn't play nice with Linux. Had to kill the auto powewrdown because it wouldn't restart when required. Only works with Windoze apparently.

Amanda

dnix71 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2009, 06:52:45 PM »

Some of those externals don't play well with Mac either. I have a few big externals I have to manaually restart to use after they sleep. LaCie enclosures are usually safe. Those were made to save power, but play well with OSX and Linux.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2009, 08:47:02 PM »

Sweet, I'm going to have to look into this... Any idea off the top of your head if FreeBSD supports the same hacks? Right now, main systems are running FreeNAS (FreeBSD) as the frontend, and Openfiler (rPath) backends. Workstations running SuSE 10.3 and Mint 6, and they're next target for the power tweaking (still using spinning disk).

All are x86 and could still use some help in that area... but the servers seem the most logical place to start since less power also means less heat means more reliability, and they're not really all that high traffic...

Steve

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2009, 08:52:11 PM »

Thats cuz mac is based on Linux' grumpy older cousin; BSD...

It's a pain to work with sometimes because it's picky about certain things, but rock solid in others. Everything has tradeoffs...

scottsAI · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:58:31 PM »

Your needs are outside of what I have seen for routers.

600mhz, few tens of Mb RAM. Many making modes to up those numbers.

Just how crazy do you want to go?

YMMV: Verify the internal power supplies in the ADSL router is a switching supply.

My Router uses 12v input, internal voltage regulator drops it down to 5v, then 3.3v.

Replacing with a switching supply should cut power in half.

Already a switcher, then no gain.

Have fun,

Scott.

DamonHD · « **Reply #12 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:18:34 AM »

/usr/ucb/ps -guaxww beats /<sysv>/ps -ef hands down! B^>

BSD is the Big Swinging ... um ... something of *nix. But I like Linux too.

Rgds

Damon

DamonHD · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:20:21 AM »

Hi,

I don't, but I see no reason why it couldn't.

One note of caution: laptop HDDs are speced for as much as 10x more spin-down/spin-up cycles as desktop drives AFAIK. Run laptop mode with the latter and you may kill the drive.

Rgds

Damon

independent · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:32:15 AM »

I ran a low power server for awhile. Was a bx based intel server and a coppermine 600mhz and used less than 60w with a laptop drive.

Put in an order for a new gecko edubook. Thing runs on aa batteries! 8 of them for 4 hours. I dont know, 2.5w? With a screen. Preproduction models sent out next week. Dont know if i made that list. Norhtec, the outfit making these has some low power servers. I imagine the SOC tech will make ultra low power servers a reality. Probably run slower than molasses but hey beggars cant be choosers.

frackers · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2009, 04:03:46 AM »

As you will have seen from my various posts and my diaries I'm running a couple of routers - one for the turbine controller and a second one I'm just writing the software for now, an irrigation controller. They draw about 5 watts each but the irrigation box will be mains powered as it controlling the 3kw 3 phase well pump for example so no point in using RE on it.

What I've been amazed by though is the way even standard desktop technology has reduced its power needs.

I'm currently running my UPS, a satellite Set Top Box, my ADSL modem with phone interface for VoIP and my new server box and taking less that 80w for the lot. My last box (6 years old when I replaced it last month) was bringing the total to over 200w.

Sounds a lot until I tell you that the server is a dual core CPU, 4G of RAM, 5TB of raid5 disk (5 off 1000GB disks spinning!!), a 160GB system drive, two TV cards and the only consession to power usage so far is to clock the CPU cores on demand so they slow down (and run at below 20C) when not much to do.

I'm going to be saving over NZ$200 a year on power bills just by doing an upgrade to a computer that is 10 times faster, has 5 times the storage, 4 times the RAM and graphics that were not even dreamed of 6 years ago!!

Yeah!!

DamonHD · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2009, 09:32:12 AM »

Yeah!! Indeed. Of only washing machines would get 10x faster and user 10x less power every few years... B^>

Rgds

Damon

DamonHD · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2009, 09:32:37 AM »

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 04, 2009, 01:41:42 PM »

It is truly amazing how far they have come with all of this... Considering that most (even basic) cell phones have considerably more ability than the first pentium desktop models of only a decade and some change ago, there really is no telling at this point what things will look like in even the next 10 years. We all make jokes about computers on our wrists, but is it really that far fetched?

Stonebrain · « **Reply #19 on:** July 04, 2009, 03:05:47 PM »

power usage won't be an argument against computers anymore.

don't know about pollution of environment.

but what about pollution of our minds?

I try to to control or to reduce the hold of computers (including phones)on my daily life rather than following blindly the irrational enthusiasm for the overall tendency.

Matter of precaution.

cheers,

stonebrain

zeusmorg · « **Reply #20 on:** July 04, 2009, 04:56:33 PM »

I'd like to find an affordable solution for my VoIP setup. I use a magicjack, which requires XP to be installed. so that would mean an x86 based machine. I'm sure I could pare down the installation size to what was just needed for the application.

All I've found so far just is more than I'd be willing to spend though.And yes I know there are VoIP solutions that will work on linux, it's just the the magicjack service is extremely cheap and very clear. I've experienced no problems with it. I'm just not willing to build a 250 server just to use my phone. I would like to reduce my power usage, though. Too bad that sheevaplug won't install XP..

AbyssUnderground · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2009, 06:51:17 AM »

My Lenovo S10e NetBook runs at around 10.5w with wifi enabled and backlight at step 3 of 10. It also has a mechanical drive, not SSD.

Specs:

6GHz Intel Atom
GB RAM
GB HD
4" LED backlit LCD
Wh extended battery (24Wh standard) (~8hr battery life under full cpu load, 3/10 backlight and wifi enabled)

PSU is 19v 2A

Power usage:

Normal use (Wifi enabled, backlight 3/10, browsing internet) - 10.5w

Idle (Wifi enabled, backlight 3/10) - 8.5w

Idle screen off (Wifi enabled) - 7w

I could do more tests but I don't have the time. Needless to say it is a very very low power machine and would be perfect for your projects. It even has that lovely SD card slot which supports the 32gb card you spoke of. Also, it has an expresscard slot for an SSD HDD should you wish to replace the mechanical 80GB drive (I wouldn't, its very low power and contains plenty of space).

At a cost of under £200 its a steal.

DamonHD · « **Reply #22 on:** July 05, 2009, 07:22:17 AM »

Yes, indeed, the Atom machines do seem to be in the right ballpark, but since it's unlikely that a simple incremental upgrade will recover the embedded energy of a new toy to justify itself that way then I'd be better doing rather more for my input resources. B^>

I'm hoping that a switch to another well-supported but non-x86 architecture and form factor is big enough of a step-change to help other people do it overcome their worries to try it too, and at ~£100 all-in, it's truly cheap and capable enough for some people to be able to run their Web sites, etc, at home or whatever on a fraction of what co-lo might cost and consume.

So, this is an 'educational' project for me (and anyone who reads my write-ups)!

Having said all that, if Intel continues its good work on x86 energy efficiency then I have no fundamental objection to using a machine like yours.

My target is to have the whole schmole including DSL connectivity on <10W within a year or two, and at least the computing part able to run off my 40Ah 12V off-grid PV system battery for at least 24h. This is just an experimental step on the way there.

Rgds

Damon

scottsAI · « **Reply #23 on:** July 05, 2009, 11:01:14 AM »

Frackers,

My new computer draws double that power. Dual core 6Ghz, 1Tb HDD. No RAID.

Running SETI, drawing 135w, UPS 24w, Router 5w, not measured cable modems or several switches.

Not running SETI computer uses 86w.

What CPU and motherboard you using?

Have fun,

Scott.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 05, 2009, 02:37:56 PM »

Thats one area that I don't allow them to control. My machines work for me, not the other way around. Sure, they take effort to make them do what I want them to do for me, but I don't bow down to them or otherwise distress when they are not operational...

The rest of the world? Well, not so sure. It's been a long debate for a while as to whether the world would be able to survive if someone 'pulled the plug' on the entire internet at once... Nobody knows how to use paper anymore.

Personally I think my wife would flat out croak if the internet died... I love her to death but she's way too dependent on technology.

Steve

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 05, 2009, 02:45:24 PM »

Go laptop; you'll at least get some of your power savings, and the benefit of it also still being a computer that can be used for other things. Dedicating a machine is great, and can improve several aspects of a project, but its not worth it to have 30 different 5 watt machines doing all these different tasks if the same work can be done by a single machine that only draws 50.

Always a tradeoff somewhere...

Steve

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 05, 2009, 02:50:45 PM »

Yup and thats the thing. Problem with a 'universal' solution is that there really isn't one when it comes to computers...

There are way too many factors unfortunately; cost, performance, energy consumption, use-case, anticipated load, time to tinker with it, knowledge level... the list goes on and on...

Steve

frackers · « **Reply #27 on:** July 05, 2009, 03:56:08 PM »

I'm running the following (custom build by a local shop to my specs)

ASUS M3N78Pro motherboard (GeForce 8300 onboard graphics)

Corsair PC2-6400 DDR2-800 (4GB total)

AMD Athlon X2 5050e CPU AM2 45W (2.6GHz)

CoolMaster Centurion 590 case with 400w PSU

ASUS DRW-22B1ST DVD writer

GB IDE Seagate 7200.10 system disk
GB SATA2 Seagate 7200.11 x 5

So far it all works, a small problem with unreliable connection via a USB to serial converter to the UPS which caused random shutdowns but I've brought the internal serial port out to the back panel now so that's fixed!!

DamonHD · « **Reply #28 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:22:13 AM »

Well, I've been having fun today and think that I've tweaked the main app so that it'll run comfortably within 256MB-ish, down from 1GB minimum, ie less than half of the physical memory. Mainly took all night thinking (and working on another aspect) and then about 10 lines of code... Now if only all applications could halve their resource requirements that easily.

Obviously that theory is no substitute for trying it in practice! B^>

Rgds

Damon

scottsAI · « **Reply #29 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:01:24 PM »

Frackers,

The 45 watt CPU was not out when I was looking.

AMD Athlon X2 5050e CPU AM2 45W (2.6GHz)

Nice CPU, maybe will build a computer with it.

Design and build my own computers, above $320 back in Nov08, all new except case.

Driving factor is cost/performance for SETI, had 22 going for a while.

Scott.

Bruce S · « **Reply #30 on:** July 13, 2009, 12:14:58 PM »

Z-

No sure you're still following this thread, but..

The Pare down the system, there's a program that can be had for near free and a small device that is pretty cheap to find too.

First: Program, out on the web there is a program called XPlite, just google it, download it and give that a try.

Our company uses it to dump the 100% garbage built in XP, which also makes it safer and harder to hack, before sending the laptops out into the world. Its a stable program, been around for a few years now, if it's what you like it can be purchased, which gives even more abilites plus support.

I don't own stock in this company(wish I did), just know how well it works and have two IBM 380Zs running the 98lite on 64mb CFs which includes a wired PCMICA nic. sitting 3 feet behind me.

The cards were in the trash pile )

Other item is pretty easy to find for around 12USD, turns the old CF cards in HDs.

Once your XP is pared down to size, use the CF, load your XP onto it and off you go.

THIS is what our company is doing with the older Dell SF desktops that are in our Cafe's for lunch time surfing.

Less heat, no HD to fail and makes ghosting them out 100x easier.

Hope this helps;

Bruce S

zeusmorg · « **Reply #31 on:** July 13, 2009, 01:30:40 PM »

It's not the XP OS size that's the problem It's finding a low cost low power x86 compatible system that is cheap! I could use my eee but why would i want to tie up a 300 $ machine just to run my Voip? If i could find someting for say 50 that was low power, I'd jump on it.. lowest cost I've gotten so far is around 150, and I'm just not willing to spend that to save 20 a year (if that)

That would be an atom Mobo CF card, cf to IDE, PS, and no case!

Right now I'm using an older dell that runs it just fine, It's just the power consumption I'd like to lower.(which i have somewhat i pulled out all unnecessary components, and run w/no monitor on it)

DamonHD · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2009, 02:35:49 PM »

I believe that the SheevaPlug has already been used at least to stream audio and video, so VoIP shouldn't be a sweat, in theory...

Rgds

Damon

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Author Topic: Ultra-low-power Web server (Read 14417 times)