Old hot water heater

[FuddyDuddy]

About 30 years ago, when I lived just south of Portland, Oregon, I built a very simple thermosyphining heating system for my garage, which was always cold. I built a simple framework about 3' deep by 7' long, slanted at about 45 degrees. The sides were composed of 1x4's with a plywood filler. I put in 3/4" copper piping (cheap at that time)at a spacing of about 4" and set them about 2" from the back panel (3/4" plywood). I soldered everything up and did a pressure test. When that all checked out, I ran a pair of pipes into the side of the garage and connected them into three 55 gallon drums that were set on a raised platform so they were higher than the collector, which was at ground level. When all was tested for leaks, I used some old boards, nailed to the front of the collector, and then poured cement into the collector area. When that was set, I removed the boards, painted the cement flat black and used two old patio doors over the top of the system.

That kept my garage about twenty degrees above the ambient year round. Was nice to have that extra heat. I just threw a cover over the glass during the hotter part of the year.

This system had no pumps, no controls of any kind, but it worked...

Maybe someone else might like this idea ??

[spinningmagnets]

If you have any pictures of when you were building it and the finished project, I'm sure Gary over at www.builditsolar.com would like to see it, he may post it.

[FuddyDuddy]

Sorry, that was a long tme ago and I didn't take any pics.

However, as the description says, it was a very simple design. What I'm doing

now is a hot air system that gives me about 100 - 105 degress F over the outside

ambient.

I am using two small fans (13 watts each) to pump the heated air into the basement,

which is where I setup our Air Handler to draw the air from.

During the summer, one of the fans draws cooler air into the basement to help on

the cooling.

I do have pictures of that installation, if you are interested.

The entire house is controlled through a PLC with a 8-input Analog module.

[GaryGary]

Hi,

I would be interested in hearing more about the cool air from the basement scheme.  

This is a basement based cooling scheme from Fran:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/BasementFan/BasementAirCooling.htm

It seems to work pretty well, and there has been quite a bit of interest in it -- I would like to get the stories from others who have tried it.

You can just email me.  You might also post it here on ForceField -- lots of people interested in cooling this time of year

Gary (from BuildItSolar)

[zeusmorg]

 I do something similar I have a whole house attic fan that I turn on around 5-6 pm.

Initially i pull up air from the basement which passes through standard air filters that i've attached to the basement windows (2) and then that air is pulled up into the main floor replacint the hotter living space air, the air in the living space is pushed up into my attic replacing the even hotter attic air which exits through a roof vent.

 Once the outside temp gets low enough I open windows on the main floor and let that circulate and it gives the basement overnight to cool down lower from ground temps..

 This system saves me turning on my A/c most of the time It is simple to accomplish (mainly because the attic fan was already here when i moved in)

 This was how people USED to cool their houses before the advent of a/c. We had the same system (even down the the 2 speed fan switch and timer) on the house I grew up in.

 I shut the system down (via timer) before sunrise and let the cool air sit in my main living area until heat soak through my walls causes me to start it all over about 5 or 6 pm.

 I have thought about adding a temperature based system, that would sense the differences between outside air, basement air, and living space temp and control the inputs automatically.( open/close louvers or shut windows)

 It is better to use a fan to pull the air through rather than push it..

[GaryGary]

Hi,

Very nice idea.  

I could do exactly the same thing -- don't know why I never thought of this.

We use our whole house fan with main floor windows open when its cooler outside, but then turn it off and shut windows when it warms up outside -- we could just close main floor and open basement windows as you do.

Thanks,

Gary

[scottsAI]

GaryGary,

Moved in my new house late summer of 1986, no money for AC, locals claimed not warm enough to need. 1987 with two young children, summer hit 95F 90% RH. Don't need it??

We closed the windows during the day, open at night with fan blowing in the little cool air.

Mid summer we were getting cooked. Our heating is forced air, so opened the air duct in the basement to suck up the cool air and spread it around the home. (effectively like this post). It worked some what, two problems:

-Water pipes dripped water most of the day getting things wet in the basement. High Humidity in the house. Tanks of our toilets sweat.

-Basement became very damp and musty smelling, boxes stored in basement became soft/fragile, heaver ones ripped if moved.

Summer of 1988 temperatures hit 105F here in MI. By late summer we decided we suffered enough and put in whole house AC. To discover a SEER 10 only cost $32/mo to keep us nice and cool. 2006 cost $150 to cool house for the whole summer.

MI we have interruptible AC power rate available. Saves 30%, been shutdown by electric co. 4 times that I know of. The rates allow power off for 20 min max in any 60 min window. I can live with that. Except they kept the power off for more than 4 hours, house hit 85F. NOT happy about that, lowered temperature setting to 78F after. Electric co. claimed they did it as an emergency measure to keep grid from collapsing. Too bad for them, I want a lower rate or stick to the contract terms.

I irrigate my lawn for hours a day, realized it runs about half the time AC does on hot days, well water temperature starts out at 50F, 59F by the end of the summer. The AC A-frame heat exchanger in the furnace runs at 57F. Looking to cool the house with well water before it gets sprayed on the lawn. The parts cost $300, may save $75/yr and lots of work. The AC still runs half the time. Complete redesign of watering system to double watering time can replace AC. Huge amount of rework, time and cost. Just not worth it (to me). New construction definitely worth doing.

Have fun,

Scott.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Looked at well water heating/cooling for the NV place:  Well water is about 72F all year. so it would work both ways without a heat pump, but poorly.  (I think there's a bit of geothermal heat there, though not enough to provide a hot spring.)

However we're not irrigating our "desert paradise" so it's not making sense at the moment.

One advantage is that the air is dry enough that a swamp cooler would be really effective.  (Stepping out of the shower into an 80F house is positively frigid.)  Provided I can find a heat-exchanger type so we don't get the stinky humidity from our mineral-rich well water into the house air.

(The wife REALLY doesn't like the idea of a swamp cooler being involved in the system in any manner due to reliability issues.)

Neither the NV nor the CA house have basements, so basement cooling is out.

I recall when dad waterproofed the basement walls in the Michigan house:  It was 'way cooler than the humid outside air so it got enough condensation that it actually had puddles on the floor.  B-(

[GaryGary]

Hi Scott,

Yes -- agree that areas with high humidity are tough to handle without AC.  

I have heard of people using a combination of taking steps to reduce the house heat gain coupled with an "undersized AC to reduce humidity levels".  Does the undersize AC to reduce humidity levels make sense to you?

They talk about it a little here:

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~liz/hvac.html

A lot of the west (where we are) might get to high temperatures during the day, but its dry and cools off a lot at night, so pretty easy to do without AC.

Gary

[scottsAI]

Ungrounded Lightning Rod,

72F ground water: is NV is much further south then I remember?

NV ground water is not that warm, need to get near southern TX.

Here is a map of average ground temperatures:

http://www.noritz.com/u/US_ground_temperature%5B1%5D.pdf

Then I noticed: "a bit of geothermal heat there".

And verified NV location!-) Normal groundwater temperatures should be on par with MI.

Found the map shows me at 47F average, never measured it below 50F.

64 ft well must not be deep enough to get the colder water.

Northern CA groundwater is OK for cooling, not south.

Sister lives in NM, swamp cooler has worked nicely for her?

Does require changing the Mat yearly.

What reliability issues are you referring to?

Have fun,

Scott.

[scottsAI]

Gary,

BuildItSolar is great!

Better to undersize AC unit than over size.

Over size reduces run time, in high humidity environments the AC unit does not get a chance to reduce the humidity before it meets the temperature requirements, leaving the humidity too high, with you feeling uncomfortable. Personally experienced this, room was cold feeling and clammy, not comfortable at all.

Undersize will not reduce the temperature as much, yet can remove more humidity. Lower humidity provides same comfort at a higher temperature. Just like out west.

High efficiency fan to move air again allows warmer air to feel comfortable.

If solar heat is available and high humidity, Desiccant cooling should be considered in this location.

Desiccant requires just as much energy to dry it as the cooling it reduces, therefore solar heat is required to make this cost effective and why it's not a main stream solution.

To understand the benefit of desiccant cooling check out:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-dehumidifying-air-d_695.html

The sensible heat (reducing room temperature) is less than the latent cooling (Dehumidifying). Therefore based on the example desiccant could reduce cooling cost 50% with 60% RH air. (half size AC unit)

Most places cool down at night, taking advantage of it can reduce the day AC needs (eliminate)

I believe you have this on your web?: (night cooling)

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/pdf/FSEC-CR-1771-08.pdf

Cool water storage at night, with reduced heat gain during the day, coasting through with stored cooling from the night before can be just the ticket, maybe boost performance with desiccant.

Keeping the humid air out of the home is important (well sealed), yet so is ventilation.

My Fathers home in FL has electric heating with AC unit. Looking at the cost of air sourced heat pumps, only couple hundred dollars more than AC only unit, yet it's not used. His electric heating bill in spring / fall is as large as the AC bill in the summer making it more expensive to live in FL than here in Michigan!

I keep my house warm 74F in winter, 77F summer. Total heating/cooling bill is $800/yr, add in hot water, stove, cloths dryer bumps it up to $950/yr. Heated living space 2500sqft (first story + basement)

Have fun,

Scott.