Wind Blue genny tested.

[Jerry]

OK I'm finaly done with testing these blades and the GM car alt genny.

Its as close to a Wind Blue as I'll ever get. That is I have the Wind Blue Stator, The Cyclone blades used on it and a GM claw NEO rotor From Hydrogen Appliances or Hornet.

The Wind Blue rotor may be a littel better? But I don't think it would change my #s much. If Wind Blue wants to send me there rotor I'd be happy to test it and send it back.

The first 4 tests were done with the stator all stock 3 phase star. I benched this stator. Wind Blue says its cutin is 150 rpm. I got 12.7 volts from it at 158 rpm so close enough good call Wind Blue.

Blades tested today.  TLGs 55" boast Busters 3 blade, TLGs 63.5" Wind Blue Cyclone 2 blade, A 55" 3 blade Jerry Blade set and my standard 48" 3 blade set.

These are truck mounted tests. I havn't got the wind tunnel up to the higher speeds yet. So the real MPH #s may be scewed but all blades were tested under the same conditions.

Here are the #s for each blade type.

  TLGs boast buster star.

  5  mph      0    watts

 10  mph      0    watts

 11  mph     6.2   watts

 15  mph     18.6  watts

 20  mph     63.28 watts

 25  mph     90.11 watts

 30  mph    113.64 watts

 35  mph    133.95 watts

  TLGs  Cyclone 2 blade star.

  5  mph      0   watts

 10  mph      0   watts

 13  mph     6.34 watts

 15  mph     25.4 watts

 20  mph    50.91 watts

 25  mph    90.17 watts

 30  mph    105.6 watts

 35  mph     136  watts

 55" plastic Jerry Blades star.

  5  mph      0  watts

 10  mph      0  watts

 11  mph   6.36  watts

 15  mph  38.23  watts

 20  mph  70.86  watts

 25  mph   117   watts

 30  mph   140   watts

 35  mph   170   watts

 Now my standard 48" plasic blades. I knew these wouldn't do much. Just to much stal with this alt with stock wiring.

 48" Jerry Blades star.

  5  mph      0  watts

 10  mph      0  watts

 15  mph   12.75 watts

 20  mph   12.79 watts

 25  mph   25.65 watts

 30  mph   64.79 watts

 35  mph  195.75 watts

Now on to the next phase of testing or should I say Jerry phased or Jerry rigged.

In this test all 3 phases were seperated. Each phase was connected to its own and seperate fullwave bridge. The DC ouptputs of the bridges were perelelled. Not sires for this stator. This stator is wound with 22 ga. wire not the normal 12 ga. in a stock alt. It measured 2.5 oms per phase. A stock alt just reads 0 ohms per phase.

Many turns of small wire. This is how they get the 150 rpm cutin but at a big loss in amperage. By Jerry rigging it I've effectivly cut the resistance in half, tripeled the amperage but increased the cutin rpm requierment by 3.

However gennies of this size use blades, if designed right that work very well at this requiered rpm and with a better power match.

Here are the Jerry Rigged #s same alt same blades.

  TLG Cyclone , I didn't do the Boast busters on this test but they would be very close to the Cyclone #s.

  Cyclone    (JR)

  5  mph    0    watts

 10  mph    0    watts

 15  mph    38.1 watts

 20  mph    64   watts

 25  mph  103.68 watts

 30  mph  117    watts

 35  mph  210    watts

 37  mph  255.6  watts

 55" extended plastic Jerry Blades.   (JR)

  5  mph    0    watts

  7  mph   12.8  watts

 10  mph  25.6   watts

 15  mph  64.14  watts

 20  mph 193.2   watts

 25  mph  210    watts

 30  mph  259.2  watts

 48" standard Jerry Blades.     (JR)

  5  mph    0    watts

 10  mph    0    watts

 12  mph   12.68 watts

 15  mph    96   watts

 20  mph   127   watts

 25  mph   149.5 watts

 30  mph   224.4 watts

 35  mph   345   watts  These smaller blades were realy fyin.

Its aperant to me that These Gm alt type gennies have room for improment. These makers should be looking into better blade matching and a diferant wiring scheem.

  I'll just put the stock #s next to the upgrade #s for a line of site compairison.

    63.5 "  2 blade                                             55" 3 blade

Stock W B alt genny star & blades        upgrade #s (blades & wiring scheem)

 5  mph         0 watts                             0  watts

 7  mph         0 watts                           12.8 watts

10.  mph         0 watts                           25.6 watts
    
15.  mph     25.4  watts                          64.14 watts
    
20.  mph     50.91 watts                          193.2 watts
    
25.  mph     90.17 watts                           210  watts
    
30.  mph    105.6  watts                          259.2 watts
    
    

I would think anyone how owns and flys one of these car alt gennies would like to make the upgrades. Even if the manufactures are not intrested?

WE'll see if there watching?

Like I said my #s may be scewed from the cab over wind but the diferances are very real. I don't think I'm that far off from reality here.

                        Jerry

[Dave B]

Interesting Jerry, I know very little about these setups but your tests prove there can be matching issues. Why did you chose only to test the 2 blade against your 3 blades in the second test ? Just curious,  Dave B.

[hiker]

jerry..

are those alts all wave wound like a standard car alt ?? 12 poles......

i picked up a truck alt awhile back..i think the rotor is 4.5"[not sure which way ile wire it}.........

anyway i did one awhile back-[car alt}--wave wound it the first time.

secound time i put two sets of 9 coils-needed a little more speed

but put out more amps--i belive i even had it jerry rigged-when it was

wave wound...[tried star also]

have you ever tried two sets of nine in any of your conversions??

six wires out-when wired in star-each set of nine!...............

 like i said im not sure which way im going to wire the truck alt...........

[Jerry]

Hi Dave B.

Well I was Lazy. These TLGs are not mine. I have the 3 blades and a hub for the Boast Buster and a hub for the Cyclone just for a short time for testing.

Each blade has 3 each 1/4" bolts, nuts and washer for atachment. So I balance the Boast Buster, I flew it, tested it. Then I had to disaemble it, ter  it down. Then I took 2 blades from it and reasembled the blades on the Cyclone hub, then balance it.

It was a pain to keep doing this and one of my objectives here was to compair the Wind Blue genny to some upgrades. The Wind Blue comes with the Cyclone 2  blade  so I thought OK good enough. The Boast Buster didn't do any better.

AS far as the matching isues. Wind Blue has atemped to make the car alternator work at low wind speed. To do this the alternator was wound with many turns of small wire to increase its voltage while at the same time reducing its cutin rpm from 700-800 down to 150 rpm.

The problem here is small wire don't do high amps. So amperage was lost. The next problem with car alternator gennies is the blades.

With stock car alternator with stock wire the problem has allways been the need for very high rpm. The problem with very high rpm blades is they don't respond to low winds.

TLG solved this with a big fat blade that starts turning a just a few mph. Now couple that to Wind Blue low rpm alt and now you have a car alt geny that starts to make a trace amount of charging at low wind speed but the high resistance of the many turns of small wire restricks any usable power.

Yes you are right this is a sirius missmatch. Thin more arow dinamic blades in this size are capable of higher rpm. The Cyclone has a lot of touqure but its poure on rpm.

For the higher rpm lower tourque blade this alternator in its high turns star wired configuation causes to much stall and this miss match realy robs power.

The Jerry Rigged configuration reduces the resistance greatly, increases the amperage capability much higher then star and makes for a much happier match between the blades and the alt.

Also Jerry rigged doesn't have the 1.7 losses of star. Star you know the 20 volts in 17 volts out  thing.  That in its self creats waist.

I was able to reduce the rpm greatly with low resistance stock alternator wingdings with the sires coneccted plus caps Jerry rigged formate with very simular results.

Its very simple if you wear a size 10 don't try a size 11 or 9. Match the blade to the alt or visa versa. They tryed to cmpensate for the short comings of the car alt but got things out of wack and not optimized.

You'd think manufactures could figure this stuff out. But I think that may not be important to them. I don't know, it puzzels me.

OK I'd better take a time out.

                          Jerry

[Jerry]

 Hi Hiker

The alt I tested today is from Wind Blue. It is not wave wound. It is wound in the normal stock style but with 22 ga. wire of many turns.

Actuly today Jerry Rigged test was done with 6 wires coming out of the GM alt.

The star point was severed. Each phase was seperated from the star point. No more star point, gone, kapoot, nada, ain't hapnin.

So now 6 wires out or 2 for each phase. Then on to the 3 seperate indvidual fullwave bridge rectifiers. One for each phase. Then all bridges pluses wire together, thats the positve connection. Then all the bridge negitives wired together thats the negitive connection.

And you know theres some real nice 6 wire cable of 14 ga. used for car trailers at your auto parts store. It tuff and it looks like a heavy black  extension cord.

They have it on a 500 ft bulk roll. So its neat and tuff and clean so the bridges can be at the tower base or the battery room or were ever.

So yes I do the 6 wire out thing on the car alts and the GE-ECMs. It would be great on 3 phase AC motor conversions also.

Jerry rigging could eliminate a lot of 3 phase AC motor conversion rewindings.

                     Jerry

 

[hiker]

thats what i found out with my alt also jerry...

lots of turns of fine wire-wave wound..equals a lower cut in speed..but then

it really loads up the blades...jerry rigged or two nines..put out more amps

at just a little higher cut in speed..with less load on the blades...

so less load should make more power at a lower speed..

in other words leave wave windings for autos-or gas powered alts..

just my thoughts............

[adaml]

Jerry,

Hope not butting in or distracting from the thread.  Been googling for your link to the Windblue mods you suggest but can't locate at present, is there a chance you have got the link?

Also interesting to see your results.  I have a Windblue which I now "detest"!!  ECM for me any day.  Ran the Windblue for two weeks 48" pvc - died, presuming stator burn out?  Need to look at a rewind or mods?  Pity you are other side of pond or would send the rotor but doubt it would be cost effective?  Enjoying reading your research, thank you.

[Jerry]

Hi adaml.

Since your on the other side of the pond you might find a local supplier of a replacement stator.

Wind blue says there stator is a 24 volt. I don't think it is? I have a factory GM 24 volt stator and the wire in it is much heavyer and with fewer turns.

Find a factory 24 volt GM stator and wire it sires Jerry rigged with caps.

You'll stop the burn out. More latter got to run now though.

               Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi again adaml.

Well I dodn't rewind anyway. 24 volt stators are available here. I don'y much like car alt gennies anyway. However since I was a newby one 7 years ago and baught one I thought I'd see if they can be made usfull?

It will hold up themally with a factory 24 volt stator and with fast enogh blades and sires Jerry rigged with caps it will make it almost a usable small machine.

2, things you must have some great wind and designed some very good blades to burn that stator.

The Wind Blue blade is so restricted on rpm it can't cause enough rpm for stator burnout.

It sounds like you may have an ECM on the way?

When I did the Wind Blue genny (63.5" blades) stock star wind test the GM alt case was very hot. That was at 195 watts.

When I tested the ECM it was cold at 245 watts 4ft diameter blades.

The ECM had much lower resistance.

                        Jerry

[adaml]

Hi Jerry,

I got my Windblue 540 Low Wind as a very newbie also.  When it "died" I was flying some 4' wood blades (as close to Hugh Piggott design as I could get, not a patch on yours though)stock wired.  I was under the impression the stator as shipped was 12V. I haven't had a chance to get inside it and try to figure out the exact problem, the burn out is my best guess - resistance to turning now very considerable.  IF I can fathom the problem I will try your wiring suggestions.

The rotor I have is sitting doing nothing so if you are interested in testing in your alt I would be more that happy to research shipping.  I don't know when I will get a chance to look at it properly.

I would now, with hindsight, take an ECM any day.  Mine is Jerry rigged.

Adam.

[adaml]

Hi Jerry,

I got my Windblue 540 Low Wind as a very newbie also.  When it "died" I was flying some 4' wood blades (as close to Hugh Piggott design as I could get, not a patch on yours though)stock wired.  I was under the impression the stator as shipped was 12V. I haven't had a chance to get inside it and try to figure out the exact problem, the burn out is my best guess - resistance to turning now very considerable.  IF I can fathom the problem I will try your wiring suggestions.

The rotor I have is sitting doing nothing so if you are interested in testing in your alt I would be more that happy to research shipping.  I don't know when I will get a chance to look at it properly.

I would now, with hindsight, take an ECM any day.  Mine is Jerry rigged.

Adam.