Biomethane

[willib]

And almost everyone can make it too.

I've included a site with a Digester they sell to show how easy it would be to copy .

I have one going in my attic , but it is not doing well yet. i think i need some cow poo to get it going

Right now it is using food scraps .

as a holding 'tank ' i am using an inner tube connected directly to a 'digester' jar.

it is a really small scale experiment but it should work .

http://sintex-plastics.com/deenabandu_g.htm

In this site there is a smaller tube heading down to the digester bottom on the left.

This is where the 'goods' go in .

on the right is a garbage can looking device , this is where  the digested material can be removed when its done. the digested material is a good fertilizer i hear .

As the gas is emitted from the slosh the Dome fills with gas and pushes down on the water , so the water level in the dome will be lower than in the input tube and the exit can. Also creating pressure for the gas to exit out the top of the dome.

Seems easy enough ?

.

william

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[richhagen]

Hi WilliB, if you haven't already seen these, you might want to peruse the stories by Al Rutan here:  http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html  starting in the January 2005 issue.  He gave a bit of information on the design of parameters, and what is important for methane production.  I think Gary may have some links on his Build it Solar site as well.  Rich

[willib]

Thanks Rich , the color of the link says i had visited the site before , but i had not seen the pdf's .

thanks if looks like some good reading.

.

william

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[dnix71]

I don't have an animal, but I have lots of lawn/tree trimmings. Making biogas for cooking would be useful. Would that work? I can't open burn where I live, so burning some for heat to make biogas isn't an option.

How do you can and save the gas? The arrangement you have doesn't look like something you would take inside to cook with.

[willib]

Hi again Rich That site has lots of great info.

July was a good month It has some super info on Digesters and some 'other' neat stuff also.

Dnix71 i can't answer your question at this time , it seems the cell structure between hay and straw is the determining factor of whether grass clippings will digest or not?

Do read July though.

Happy digesting

.

william

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[hiker]

saw a program on the pbs channel--over in africa--they build clay domes-toss in some

animal waste-hose sticks out of the top-that goes to a cooking burner...

i guess they have been doing it that for years........

[willib]

I've been able to stabilize the temperature today , to close to 100F (38C), with a 15 Watt CFL and lots of insulation around the styrofoam cooler.

[Curbie]

I ran into the biological production of methane and from there ran

into Jean Pain's methane production from compost and John Fry's

methane production from digestion of animal and vegetable waste.

Jean Pain (book)

http://www.biomeiler.at/explorer/Downloads/AnotherKindofGarden.pdf

Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHRvwNJRNag&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGCj7NA0OIs&feature=related

John Fry

http://www.cd3wd.com/CD3WD_40/JF/432/Methane%20Power%20Plants%20-%20L.%20John%20Fry%201973-74.pdf

Both these processes are fairly old and have strengths and

weaknesses, these two free books answer a lot of questions.

Have fun.

Curbie

[dnix71]

Jean Pain used 50 ton piles of brush that was chipped up in a gasoline powered shredder. Her methods require far more fossil fuel than it returns in biogas.

By John Fry's 1970 estimate all the organic waste in the US would supply 1/50 of total US energy need and maybe 1/15 of US natural gas needs.

Using plant waste doesn't seem to work well. Even burning waste directly produces little electricity. Most of Broward County's urban waste is burned at two plants, but it's because we ran out of room to bury it unless it was burned to ash first (metals glass and plastics are removed first).

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Wheelabrator+Marks+100+Million+Tons+of+Trash+Converted+to+Energy%3B...
-a074270389

This was 9 years ago- 100 million tons of waste was burned since startup.

I used to take used tires to a landfill in western Davie that is now closed. $75 for all you could stuff in a van. 72 passenger tires if you laced them correctly.  

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/keyword/landfill

Mount Trashmore in Coconut Creek is set to top out at 280 feet.

[Curbie]

Well, Jean Pain composted most of his bio-mass for aerobic heat production for DHW and domestic heat, also to provide heat for anaerobic production of "GAS" 60% methane, 30%CO2, and 10% mixed components  Jean Pain claimed both that he could produce 1m^3 per 5 Kg. of bio-mass (page 63) and that his method use far LESS fossil fuel energy (video) than was returned in "GAS". I don't know if I believe his claims, but there they are.

Using bio-mass works fine, just depends on how fast you want to produce "GAS", a mixture of animal waste that high in nitrogen and vegetable waste that is high in carbon produces the fastest "GAS" (John Fry) with a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 30:1 and is best suited for continuous digesters.

Straight bio-mass (Jean Pain) is best suited to a batch processor and takes a lot more time, basically depending on the temperature, how finely chopped the bio-mass is, and how much fiber is in the bio-mass.

This is demonstrated the next time you drive past Mount Trashmore (I drove by today) you'll see all the dug in methane pipes, it has been, and will be producing methane for years.

BS or not, the good thing about Jean Pain's claims is that they will only cost $1.00 to test.

I've got an extra buck.

Have fun.

Curbie

[willib]

Hi dnix71,Jean Pain's piles of shredded brush didn't look that big to me? Maybe 30' in dia. by 10 feet high?

He also got hot water from the pile at 140F degrees. For a year and a half IIRC per pile.

And he used the remains as plant fertilizer.

In that first link , their 670MW output from 16 facilities could be replaced by 446 1.5MW wind turbines that would be 28 windmills per facility of pollution free power:)

Years from now we will probably be digging up all the trash in the landfills for raw materials.

[Old F]

willib

I played with this back in the 70s

What I found is you need a lot of er raw material

to get usable amounts of gas.

You could end up with 500 to 1000 gal tanks to

run a small engine a hour or two a day.

Old F

[Curbie]

Hi Willib,

I think dnix71's characterization of Jean Pain's compost heap is in the correct range 40-50 tons, it's also brush that is cut live (shown on the video). The thing to remember with Jean Pain's plan is that much of the compost heap is there to produce heat for domestic use and the anaerobic digestion, it's not all producing "GAS".

If you already had excess heat about ~97˚F or 36˚C (solar, co-gen, ...) you would need much less bio-mass for just "GAS" production, how much bio-mass (weight or volume) is the question.

Curbie

 

[willib]

John Fry had something that i thought was interesting, he said that you gotta feed the lil' buggers.

he said that the 'raw material' was pretty well used up and that you have to add something that they can eat to the mix

makes sense to me

[TomW]

Back in the late 60's or early 70's [forget exactly when] I used a 500 gallon Stainless Steel milk bulk tank with agitator to batch digest hog manure that I got from a neighbor. Storage was a 55 gallon drum inverted in another larger drum of water which the gas bubbled thru before storage. The bubbling through water supposedly removed some nasties that could eat pipes if I recall correctly. Had a concrete block on top to give a bit of pressure for the gas which fed from the top of the barrel directly to a kitchen stove for cooking. It kept ahead of our use except during canning season when we used bottled gas in the summer kitchen propane stove to do that.

After a batch was depleted on gas production I had the neighbor pump out all but 40 or 50 gallons of the sludge which he put on his fields and topped off with more hog manure and stirred it up with the agitator normally used to keep the milk mixed to jump start the new batch with the old leftovers. Kind of like sourdough bread that way you use the old to innoculate the new.

Point being that it works but it takes a pretty big batch to put off much gas so go big if you really want useful amounts. Liquid hog waste was pretty much perfect and convenient for me. Especially as the neighbor had a honey wagon to handle it without actually handling it ;=}.

In use it has no odor and with the digester sealed up to retain and collect the gas no stink of hog waste.

My first batch digester was a gallon jug with a stopper and a tube to a balloon which was a good and cheap way to test the process.

Just a personal experience.

Tom

[Curbie]

Willib,

These are really TWO different methods here:

1)    John Fry's continuous feed processor which uses animal and vegetable waste to maintain a 30:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio for a fast "GAS" production. (he was a hog farmer)

2)    Jean Pain's batch processor which uses straight vegetable waste creating a >60:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio for a slow but steady "GAS" production. (he was a caretaker of wooded properties)

The method you choose should be based on your feedstock supply and not the speed in which you want to produce "GAS", the problem is if you batch animal waste at any carbon to nitrogen ratio less than 30:1 when the carbon is used up AND there's still nitrogen left, no more methane will be produced but bacteria will start producing ammonia, not good for your "GAS" supply.

On the other hand, high carbon ratios greater than 60:1 such as obtained with straight vegetable waste just takes longer to produce "GAS" but, without making ammonia (NH3).

Figuring out your carbon to nitrogen ratio is important but a little tricky without a mass-spectrometer, the best and easiest way, as Tom points out, is experimenting for the results you want. Take a bunch of two liters soda bottles (free), clean them real well, fill them with measured amounts of your feedstock, than log the results produced in attached Mylar balloons. When you find the best results for your combination of digester and feedstock (mixture) the results won't change much if you keep the proportions consistent.

These two guys took advantage of the two different types of feedstock available to them and developed digesters to best process them. Everything depends on the feedstock you have available to you, the results you're getting, and if those results are worth it for you to scale up for production. It would help in your considerations if you, like me, have use for large amounts of organic compost for your garden, which is the primary by-product of the process.

Good luck,

Curbie

[tecker]

I don't think you can say Cow poo I think you have to say DO Do . That's why I have to say the  way to get gas off is to mix the organic matter regularly force allthe air from the chamber and watch the temp the temp should climb to 90 degrees fairly fast .the optimum tempreture is 95 degrees easily achieved with a dead air space under glass .I messed with pond scum .Easy to grow with a sample in a ecoli rich medium .I want to make a digester that I can mix and transfer the grown medium around .

[Bruce S]

I read with great interest the PDF,even downloaded it to add to my reference library.

I may have miss-read, but in the beginning it read more like he was looking for a way to help the land, which it will certainly do.

The by-product of this is usable heat and later usable gas.

Like Tom and Old_F I've also dabbled into the world of processing this stuff :=)

Al Rutan and the guy from Britain, "chicken manure to fuel guy" were the ones I most read as they were all about using what they had and making the most of it.

I agree, the neat part about using digesters is that you can build and use according to what you have on-hand or are driven by your needs.

Willib: The website has a ton of other stuff too. I may send an email asking about a few others items they have. The unit they have looks to be built based on ease of use as well.

Continuous use units do need a stirrer of some sorts if you're going to be "producing" for a long period of time.

I use compost for my garden I have several piles going at any one time, but due to my city location, I have to keep them in covered units. The stuff coming out is very nice, make the tomatoes go even during cold weather, right up til hard frost, also keeps me from filling the refuse containers.

I had not tired soaking like Jean did, I may give that a try on a new pile see how it goes. I do know that there is heat in there, the old place where I could pile the stuff as high as I wanted always seems to have steam vapors coming off it during cold/wet days.

The other by-products of using any form of digester is there is less stuff going to the trash pile and a healthier top-soil, win - win to me. If there's a little gas to be used for a BBQ grill or to heat your coffee/tea mores the better.

Willib: let us know how your setup goes, pic too if ya got'em

Cheers;

Bruce

[dnix71]

It seems Jean Pain didn't make hot water as his primary objective. He wanted to improve farm yields by natural means. Making hot water for space heating was just a nice plus.

I live in south Florida, though. Heat is in surplus most of the year, and the bugs here are so aggressive that there is little left to mulch. It's gotten strange.

When I moved here in the early 1980's getting rid of tree trimmings was an expensive chore. Now little white beetles eat the leaves right off the trees, stripping them bare if they are in the mood. The Cuban iguanas graze grass and whatever else is in reach like cattle. I don't have to rake after mowing, the trimmings just go away.

Ants have made a home in my van and apartment. I had to throw out a portable LED light because tiny ants nested in it and corroded the battery contacts. Carpenter ants forced me to dig up conduit to the irrigation pump and replace it with direct burial wire. A gfci in the bathroom failed after ants nested in it. When I turn on the pump timer I have to make the lizards leave the box first.

All the food here has to be sealed or refrigerated or it gets eaten by ants or weevils. Termites and ants have eaten the soft wood trim in my apartment around the closets and doors and the glue backing the wallpaper. I've begun to appreciate particle board furniture because bugs don't like the glue and leave it alone.

There isn't surplus organic material here anymore, it gets scavenged too fast.

[Tritium]

Your the first I have known that has also noticed the rapid decomposition taking place that I have noticed here in Texas also. Even dead animals don't last more than a day or two before the carcass is completely decomposed leaving only hair and bones. Several houses near here have been completely destroyed by carpenter ants.

Seems that evolution in small things is accelerating and noticeable (just look at how disease organisms are resisting all we throw at them).

Thurmond

[Curbie]

dnix71,

I've also lived in south Florida since the 80's and like tecker I'm interested in pond scum (indigenous algae). This is the area I'm testing, in my view the ability to grow your own feedstock is the key to a sustainable system. Algae means batch processing over the winter (I'm moving to Nebraska) and external heat (solar) although I think algae will compost significantly faster than brush (no fiber).

I want to test Jean Pain's claim of 1m^3 from 5 kg. of bio-mass, which I don't really believe, but rough estimations based on John Fry's numbers (which seem more accurate) suggest that compost for the garden and methane for cooking is a reasonable expectation and if Jean Pain's claim is even half true, maybe some methane to run a backup generator from time to time.

Like Jean Pain, the idea of organic compost is appealing on its own, but if I can reduce a major electrical load (oven and ranges) with gas cooking, the idea becomes even more appealing.

I don't know where you live, but if you're in a fairly urban area, you might check with a local yard service for their grass clippings. Seems like a lot of handling to me, but free is free, although the handling (or lack of) is another reason I'm interested in algae.

Curbie

[willib]

Its doing real good, the 27 inch bicycle tube is full of gas , but not actually expanding the rubber if you know what i mean. And the tube has a bit of pressure on it too.Its completely round now .

I am using two plastic milk jugs ( with screw on tops)in a Styrofoam cooler, with a 15 Watt CFL for heat

I'm using  a set of old bathroom sink valves one jug connected to each valve with clear plastic tubing, and the output going to the bike tube.

Today for dinner they had old potato's, diced, and banana peels ,sliced. lol

That should keep them going for a long time, and no need to open it again for a while.

i added bout a bowl's worth to each container.                                                                                                                                                            

when i agitate the jugs i can see streams of bubbles heading towards the surface.

I think i'm going to need a bigger gas storage container soon.

[willib]

Hi Tecker funny you mention pond scum. I am very interested in harvesting pond algae or the plants that grow profusely in ponds , problem is baby fish also grow there.

Aside from that I think it would make for an excellent digester material.

[willib]

Hi Curbie, seems Lately I've been doing a lot of reading on this subject.

I ran across this today.

http://www.biomassmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=3271

So i looked up the company

http://www.ediwwtp.com/edi_company.html

which led me to Herman Miller's patent

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6291232/fulltext.html

Mr Miller has been doing this for thirty years, although i dont pretend to be able to use all his ideas.

But an essential one is what Tom mentioned.

Running the raw gas  through cold water which 'dry's ' out the gas , from water vapor, and separates the methane (CH4) ,from the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) and the hydrogen sulphide gas  all in one easy step.

The raw process contains 60 percent Methane

The CO2 which accounts for about 40 percent of the digester process is dissolved into the cold water solution as is the Hydrogen Sulphide.

.

William

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[kenl]

dnix71,

 You may also want to visit one of the mountains along the turnpike. Up in Seminole county the land fill will give you all the mulch you can haul for free. They grind it up and just put it in big piles. Pretty much everything the landscapers bring in go into these piles.

kenny

seemed like a good idea at the time

[Curbie]

Willib,

Very good catch!

I'll need to spend more time on this patent but on a cursory view it looks like a real simple and promising process. The water is misted with the raw gas in a misting chamber, at a water temperature of 36-41˚F (2-5˚C) which (for me) is well within the Nebraska winter temperature range at which point the water vapor, CO2, and H2S become far more soluble in water than does the methane. Real simple gas scrubbing, far simpler than John Fry's lime and iron process.

The patent also claims that the chilled and scrubbed methane is 40% of the volume raw gas and therefore takes less energy to compress in that state. For me compression is only interesting if the process is capable of producing more gas than is required for cooking on a home-scale (Jean Pain's claim).

Thanks for the link, real interesting post.

Curbie

[Curbie]

Willib,

If you're already testing the process, you may want to collect some rainwater for testing, processed water has all kinds of additives to kill bacteria, and you want to promote the bacteria, not impede it in this process. Well water is not as bad but can carry un-wanted nutrients or competing bacteria that may slow the process.

If you're testing a batch process you probably treat it like a batch process and start a new batch for every test, who knows what kind of wicked biological brew you'll create over time by adding feedstock to a batch process 8-0.

I'd also have some concerns about running these tests in a confined space, think un-pressurized FLASH and pressurized BANG.

Good luck.

Curbie

[tecker]

There are two pond close to where I like that develop a thick layer of scum and I get a start from there every year for my garden . this year I have a tank to use to grow the algae and I am resourcing the best growing medium .the real problem with keeping a digested working is the nitrogen content the algae is high in nitrogen and liquefies quickly all in all the way to go is a mixture .

[Curbie]

Tecker,

Pond scum is supposed to have a natural carbon to nitrogen to phosphorus (C/N/P) of ~106:16:1, known as the "Redfield ratio" OR a C/N ratio of about 6:1 (dry weight) I think a mixture is of algae and live straw/brush is the way to go.

Live (recently cut) straw/brush is supposed to have a C/N ratio above 60:1 (dry weight), so a 1 to 1 dry weight mix should give you 33:1 C/N ratio, but again it's hard to tell without a mass-spectrometer, but that's a good place to start testing a bunch of measured batches in two liter soda bottles with Mylar balloons.

The idea is to collect the greatest volume of gas in the balloon, for a set weight of bio-mass in varying ratios, in time allotted by your process (batch or continuous), without producing ammonia.

The great thing about this type a testing is the cost, I have easily collected 100's of soda bottles for algae-oil experiments, so doing 50 wide ratio bottles to find the range, and a second set of 50 to narrow the focus on the best producing range doesn't seem that daunting.

Curbie

[Curbie]

Tecker,

In thinking about willib's patent find, I'm wondering if the chilled water used to scrub for CO2 could be frozen WITH THE CO2 in an old "Ice House" like structure in the winter, and as it thaws in the summer, releasing the CO2 to be feed to the algae???

What do you think?

Curbie

[willib]

Hi Curbie

Yeah i didn't think about the water having chlorine in it. Maybe they eat that too. I've increased the size of the collector chamber. i'm now using a 26 inch Dia ball.

The kind that they use for exercise and what not. It was only $5.35 at the local 5-Below store. Yes it is very well vented .

.

william

.

[Curbie]

Willib,

Well rough calcs suggest that you increased your storage by going to the 26" ball, over the 27" inner-tube 20-75 times depending on the inflation area of the inner-tube. With the ball you have just about 3Ft.^3 of storage.

I think John Fry has some pretty sound numbers on just what can be done with a cubic foot of methane, have no clue what your end purpose is, but who cares it sounds like fun to me.

Curbie

[willib]

Like most of my experiments i want to try it , to see if i can do it.

But this one has a special purpose since i will be moving south as soon as i sell my place,and will be using Biomethane for about a zillion things.

With enough of it i could power a Serval Fridge .

run a 'gas' engine to power an Alternator to charge my batteries.

use it power my lawnmower.

Heat my house.

Eventually i would like to try to make my car run on Biomethane.