Author Topic: first storm  (Read 4217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

youmanskids

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
first storm
« on: March 31, 2010, 06:37:40 PM »
We had our first spring storm system blow thru here yesterday evening.  I thought about shutting it down but couldn't resist the power possibilities.

It started out great with 15-17 mph winds giving me 15-20 amps at 27 volts (540 watts).  the wind picked up to 27mph gusting to 38mph...thats when it got exciting.  It was putting out 32-35 amps (at 30v that's 1050 watts) and peaked out at 42 amps (1300 watts).  It started furling at about 900 watts and full furl at 1200 watts. Due to the turbulent gusting it seemed to over-speed just before it got to full furl and would briefly hit 1500 watts. The pole tip was flexing about 30 degrees from vertical and guy wire were bouncing all over! the blades were a solid disk of howling wood!  YIKES!! about that time I thought I'd better try to shut the thing down :)... I waited for a lull, and after a looonnngg 2 minute wait, (it dropped to about 250 watts) I threw the short-out kill switch.... nothing happened, it kept spinning at full tilt and in and out of furling.  Having visions of a smoking stator, I switched it back on. No apparent alternator damage or blade-tower strikes, and fortunately the wind died down and the the rain started. I breathed a sigh of relief and was very satisfied with the Dans design.

I did learn a few things... 1) It put out the power expected,  2) It furled when it was supposed to (and power dropped appropriately), 3) It was tough enough to take a 40 mph beating,  and 4) the kill swithch does not work in high winds!  strong winds seem to be able to break it out of stall even when shorted out.  In retrospect I think it would be better to let it fly in the storm so at least it would furl for some protection.


After this experience I am left to wonder if there is anything else I should be doing to protect it in a thunderstorm... should it be lowered, or let her fly? what say you all?  Im not sure my nerves can take another storm, but I know they are comming anyway!  I'll be praying for now and looking for input from your experience.  Roger

« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 06:37:40 PM by (unknown) »
Praise be to God of the universe, who gives us WIND for power.

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: first storm
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 12:44:34 AM »
Some interesting points.


You are getting good performance and you are obviously running clear of stall, this is the best way to get good power but I think your 1200W is on the high side for long term survival. Much depends on where your losses are occurring, if it is all in the stator then it won't last long. If it is mainly in the connecting leads then things are much better but even so I think you are pushing the stator rather hard.


The fact that it won't stop with a brake switch is a sure sign that you have low overall efficiency somewhere, these machines seem normally to run well stalled and will stop with a brake switch. It may be that you have a very wide air gap and are running faster than normal or it may be that you have a lot of line resistance, both of these improve the high wind performance but mean that you can't brake it in a high wind.


You were right to leave it run, if you hadn't it would have burnt out, the power dissipated in the stator would be near double when shorted. You can only consider your shorting switch as a parking brake for erection.


It would be interesting to see what volts you get at the base of the tower compared with at the battery to see what sort of line resistance you have. It may be that the brake would work right at the base of the tower.


There is something to be said for the argument that windmills should run in all wind conditions, it's bad enough that they don't work in low wind. On a good site clear of turbulence this may be a reality but on my useless sites things get very challenging in high winds and I prefer to be able to shut the things down. I always use another shut down method, I have never relied on brake switches because they don't work if you have an electrical fault, but for normal operation they are ok AS LONG AS YOU CAN NEVER BREAK AWAY FROM STALL.


You are lucky, you found this out very early and took precautions. Many don't find this out for a long time and then the very high wind comes and it breaks away and burns out. Similarly you know where your furling point is, some running very stalled assume they are furling when it is in fact stall regulated and one day the big wind comes, it pulls through stall and furls at a speed far too high to protect the winding.


I am pleased you have got things working nicely but if it was mine I think I would try to get it to furl earlier for peace of mind, there is a lot of increase in stator heating from 800 to 1200W. Whether it survives or not depends a lot on the duty cycle, if you only get 1200W for a few seconds and then a long interval of less power it gets time to cool, but if the wind conditions get to such that it is near continuous at 1200W then the heat doesn't get away. I know that on bench tests this power can't be sustained but none of us really know what cooling there is in a 40mph wind, it is obviously significant but I suspect it's not as much as you would think.


Flux

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 12:44:34 AM by Flux »

GWatPE

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
Re: first storm
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 03:33:03 AM »
Storms can be a bit of a worry.  Not being able to stop the mill with the brake was the reason I went away from an inductance limited iron core mill to my own Axial Flux design.  I seem to remember just recently another posting just like this, where the windmill owner was unable to brake the windmill.  Sounds like there is high resistance somewhere, if the machine has been built to a known design.  My own design uses 50mm round magnets, and stops in around 1/2 a revolution from about 300rpm.  It is a 3m rotor, with wooden blades.  


I would be backing off the furl point, if the electricals check out OK.  It is really satisfying to crack over 1000W though.


Gordon.


PS: what is the phase resistance, and if there are wires in hand, are all the phases the same readings?


.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 03:33:03 AM by GWatPE »

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • BIG DOG
Re: first storm
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2010, 09:34:01 AM »
seems like it would be one heck of a jolt on the stator bolts..

could be the cause of some stator faluries???
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 09:34:01 AM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: first storm
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2010, 02:03:40 PM »
That 30 degree tilt in the top section of the mast bothers me.  That would produce an "upward" component to the wind as viewed by the mill, and we recently saw a report from a commercial manufacturer that upward wind (due to wind climbing hills) caused them to have furling trouble with a system similar to those we use.  Also 30 degrees is a LOT of bend.  I'd look into strengthening that section (and making sure it has adequate length below the guy wire so the leverage force multiplication working on the first joint down is not severe).


Is your kill switch at the bottom of the mast or in the battery shed?  Near the mast it better for stopping because it avoids the resistance of the wires from the mill to the shed.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:03:40 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

bob golding

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • Country: gb
Re: first storm
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 02:32:02 PM »
have you got your tail secured to the  frame with anything other than gravity. i have lost a tail in  severe storms in the past. what i do now is put a length of threaded rod though the tail hinge so that it doesn't ride up if it gets wind underneath it. i thought the weight would  be enough but discovered it was not.


bob

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:32:02 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: first storm
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2010, 02:37:34 PM »
Hi Roger,


Isn't that funny, you posted the same story as you did 3 weeks ago, then get all the same comments you received the first time!  It's probably best not to double-post this way because whether your story is on the "wind" category or "diaries" category, who knows what it will all look like in a couple of months, whenever the site software changes.


Anyway, for those who think this is "new" please check back on thread


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2010/3/11/182628/044


Did you decide what to do with your tower?  I would have voted for 3 or 3.5 pipe on the upper section in addition to the extra guys.  Cost is hardly an excuse since you've invested so much in the basic structure anyway.  My tower will sway only about 1 inch in the nastiest gusts, so I also suspect a loose joint somewhere...


Good luck!

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:37:34 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: first storm
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 03:03:54 PM »
Jeez, I thought it was a dejavu thing.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 03:03:54 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dbcollen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
Re: first storm
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2010, 04:14:23 PM »
I have had my 10 ft turbine shut down for a few months, because the hydro is supplying far in excess of my needs, we had 70+ mph gusts a few days ago, and mine never broke free of shutdown stall. 48v 400+ ft 6AWG 3ph to brake switch and rectifier.


Dustin

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:14:23 PM by dbcollen »

GWatPE

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
Re: first storm
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 04:51:17 PM »
Actually my design is significantly different to those normally made by the readers on this forum.  It does not have the spider leg style stator connection.  The blades are full taper twist of high aspect, and low weight[ 600g apiece], with the blade centre of mass at 350mm for a 1.5m blade length.  There is actually a very small load imposed on the stator during braking.


Gordon.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:51:17 PM by GWatPE »

bob golding

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • Country: gb
Re: first storm
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2010, 06:29:37 PM »
interesting point about responding to the same story again. i tend to respond with what is in my head at the time, i mean the first time. i  might think of something else the second time, and even something else the third time. how many times would one have to post until  you got around to  repeating yourself i wonder? i think this might be called learning but  now i am not to sure, NURSE
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 06:29:37 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

youmanskids

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: first storm
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2010, 07:05:22 PM »
sorry about the confusion,  I obviously dont understand how this board really works!  I was just trying to get my stories together into some kind of chronological order and thought the "diary" section would be a place to put them all.

As far as the tower, I added another layer of guys about 10 feet below the top set and that really stiffened it up good.  now there is no visible bend at all.  In retrospect I should have also used 3 1/2 inch all the way,  but as it stands now, I think I'm good.

I also fitted a lighter tail and it fully furls at 980 watts in 30mph wind.  I like that alot better, still got a bit of cushion if there is another gusty storm.  The low and mid range is what I really need day to day, and protection is what I need in the relativly rare 40-50 mph storm winds.  its a good theory anyway :)  Roger
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:05:22 PM by youmanskids »
Praise be to God of the universe, who gives us WIND for power.

youmanskids

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: first storm
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2010, 07:06:58 PM »


LOL.. sorry again!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:06:58 PM by youmanskids »
Praise be to God of the universe, who gives us WIND for power.

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: first storm
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2010, 07:30:03 PM »
yes, 30 deg is a lot  - it seems unsafe.  It will  likely also have a major impact on the ability for the machine to furl....  it increases the angle of the tail pivot.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:30:03 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

taylorp035

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Country: us
  • Stressed spelled backwards is Desserts
Re: first storm
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2010, 03:31:40 PM »
30 degrees from steel.... I could see 10-15 degrees, but  I have a hard time believing 30.  Unless the section of the tower below the first guy wire was bending a lot too.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 03:31:40 PM by taylorp035 »

youmanskids

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: first storm
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2010, 07:32:35 PM »
yes it was, it looked like a big "S",  with the top guy at the center of the S and the lower guy at the bottom.  and I was a bit excited at the time...maybe 20-25 deg, but it was a scary-lot of bending! :o
Praise be to God of the universe, who gives us WIND for power.

youmanskids

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: first storm
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2010, 09:37:53 PM »
here is a link to some video of the building of my Dans 10 footer,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84V84Y6VoVM

my new turbine on the test tower,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DzPbQg1To8

and the video of the raising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Co2hpR_hA

Praise be to God of the universe, who gives us WIND for power.